MF System for available light shooting?

[Josef Isayo]

Does such a system exist?

My style of photography is virtually 100% available light, hand held people photography. I have in the past owned or still own film cameras like the Contax 645, Hassy 503, Pentax 67/645, Mamiya 6, etc...

The current crop of medium format cameras seem to be catered to mostly controlled shooting situations. They have limitation is shutter speed (mostly leaf shutter lenses), high asa, and it's difficult shooting them hand held below 1/250th without camera shake.

This limitation was not as bad back in the film days when you could load fast color or B&W film and shoot similar to a 35mm system (specially with the Contax 645) but with the sweet look of medium format.

I've been looking at the upcoming Mamiya/Phase One 645 with quite an interest. I know the camera offers fast focal plane lenses but still is limited to the slower, limited high asa backs from Phase and Leaf.

Are there any upcoming backs (or current ones I'm not aware of) that offer a usable 800 asa?

Any info would be appreciate it!

[amsp]

"usable 800 iso" is very subjective, but the Phase P30+ should fit the ticket. Try it out yourself and see what you think. Remember though that with high iso you need to know what you're doing in the RAW program to get the best results.

[thsinar]

Have a look here, to see if this ISO 800 is usable for you:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683&page=6

Best regards,
Thierry

Are there any upcoming backs (or current ones I'm not aware of) that offer a usable 800 asa?

Any info would be appreciate it!
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[Graham Mitchell]

Definitely check out the ISO 800 performance in Thierry's link. It's the best high ISO from a digital back that I've seen.

[Boris_Epix]

Also with the ISO it's important to no forget that numbers are numbers. What some manufacturers consider ISO 800 is less than ISO 400 for other folks (I'm not talking about any specific vendor here but generally).

I'm often shooting 2 or 3 different cameras during one shoot. It's amazing how much you need to adjust exposure between different cameras.

So don't fall for numbers if you depend on available light shooting. Your shutter speeds could fall quickly below what you can handhold.

Cheers
Boris

[vandevanterSH]

Is ISO 800 enough for hand held available light?  Seems like trying to force a "tool" for a job that is better served with a different tool.  I just have a CFV back so maybe I don't appreciate what the better MF backs can do.

[thsinar]

Concerning ISO:

The first question one has to ask, is to what the actual (nominal) ISO is corresponding and related. There are of course ISO norms, but those are rather thought for the consumer field and leave open a big "playing gap". Therefore, the manufacturer has to decide by himself to what this ISO should be related.

When doing a lightmetering, the result should lead to a medium grey (Lab 50/0/0) rendered as medium grey. One has to be aware here, that a RGB medium grey does not necessarily correspond to 128/128/128, respectively a centered histogram does not necessarily lead to a correct exposure.

This is strongly depending on the Gamma value of the chosen Colour Working Space: in sRGB, a RGB value of 119/119/119 correspond to a medium grey. In ECI RGB, a medium grey is given with a value of 101/101/101.

The goal of the ISO sensitivity "finding" should therefore be to reach the above value for a medium grey, with ALSO taking in count the used "contrast curve". This has lead to the value of ISO 100 as nominal sensitivity for the eMotion 75, and ISO 50 for the eMotion 54 (resp. eMotion 22), with a "default" or "standard" contrast curve of "3" in Captureshop/eXposure.

Best regards,
Thierry

Also with the ISO it's important to no forget that numbers are numbers. What some manufacturers consider ISO 800 is less than ISO 400 for other folks (I'm not talking about any specific vendor here but generally).

Boris
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[Graham Mitchell]

Is ISO 800 enough for hand held available light?  Seems like trying to force a "tool" for a job that is better served with a different tool.  I just have a CFV back so maybe I don't appreciate what the better MF backs can do.
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See Thierry's link. There is a raw file which you can download.

[amsp]

I have a first generation P25 (non +) which supposedly has the worst iso800 of all the backs, the P30+ is supposedly the best. Here's a quick shot I did outside just now handheld at iso800 1/60th f2.8. Processed in C1 3.8. This way you can see what to expect from the worst

cheers

[Snook]

I have a first generation P25 (non +) which supposedly has the worst iso800 of all the backs, the P30+ is supposedly the best. Here's a quick shot I did outside just now handheld at iso800 1/60th f2.8. Processed in C1 3.8. This way you can see what to expect from the worst

cheers
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amsp..
That looks amazing really..... I expected much worse.. Luckily you have a lot of light in that picture I guess..
Did you tweak it at all or reduce noise somewhere?
Thanks
Anyways Gives me hope for my P30 (Non+) in case of an emergency..
I am a have a problem that I never like to shoot above 100 iso/asa and even on my 1DsMII I rarely went above 200.. Ya I know it can handle way more..
Anyways I use flash a lot and do not really shoot much natural light stuff at all. Sometime mix ambient with flash but rarely Natural.
Snook

[amsp]

amsp..
That looks amazing really..... I expected much worse.. Luckily you have a lot of light in that picture I guess..
Did you tweak it at all or reduce noise somewhere?
Thanks
Anyways Gives me hope for my P30 (Non+) in case of an emergency..
I am a have a problem that I never like to shoot above 100 iso/asa and even on my 1DsMII I rarely went above 200.. Ya I know it can handle way more..
Anyways I use flash a lot and do not really shoot much natural light stuff at all. Sometime mix ambient with flash but rarely Natural.
Snook
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I just used the color noise suppression feature in C1. I really think the reputation of digital backs having bad high ISO is grossly over exaggerated. It's not perfect of course (compared to iso100) but more than usable, and even more so when doing B/W. I always chuckle when I read posts saying they are useless above 200. It might be that ppl just don't know how to handle the files, I don't know. If this is the worst I can only imagine what the P30+ looks like.

[Juanito]

Hi Josef:

I just tested the Hassie H2 system and have to say that, for low light, don't bother with medium format. The files are noisy and the cameras themselves just can't hack it. You get too much camera shake from the shutter slap and the single AF focus point is pathetic.

Ten year ago when we were shooting film, the difference may not have been so noticeable. But now, it's so easy to dial up to 3200 iso (or higher) with small format digital and get awesome results. The SF digital systems are overall so much better than they were back in the day so it's hard to justify leaving them for shooting weddings and other photojournalistic settings.

I used the Hassie at portrait session on Saturday. It worked great for static shots, but sucked for casual portraits. First, it's hard to focus on the subject and then if they move, you're screwed. Since the focus point is in the center, you can't continually refocus as the subject moves. It doesn't matter how much resolution you have if your subject is soft. The prism finder doesn't help matters either. (I like the old waist lever finders better for focus.)

I love medium format and I'm quickly becoming addicted to it again. It does however have it's limitations. Besides, spending $20k just to get a slightly different look is kinda hard to justify (unless you're loaded with cash - in which case I say go for it). There's no way I personally would spend that kind of cash just for wedding or portrait photography.

Oh... and the one reason I'm staying away from Mamiya is the 1/125 shutter sync. Forget trying to pop a strobe outdoors with that.

John Mireles

[Ken Doo]

I'm one of those that rarely shoots above 100----and that's with either the P30, Canon 5D or 1Ds Mark III.

I'm not so sure why shooting natural light always has to equate with shooting at a higher iso.  And even when at a higher iso, an image will still look pretty good as long as it is well-exposed.  Bumping it up a notch will certainly make it easier to handle moving subjects.

The attached portrait (still being retouched!) was shot with a Mamiya 645AFD and P30, Mamiya 105-210, natural light, handheld, Manual setting at f/5.6 and 1/60th.

[Josef Isayo]

I'm one of those that rarely shoots above 100----and that's with either the P30, Canon 5D or 1Ds Mark III.

I'm not so sure why shooting natural light always has to equate with shooting at a higher iso.  And even when at a higher iso, an image will still look pretty good as long as it is well-exposed.  Bumping it up a notch will certainly make it easier to handle moving subjects.

The attached portrait (still being retouched!) was shot with a Mamiya 645AFD and P30, Mamiya 105-210, natural light, handheld, Manual setting at f/5.6 and 1/60th.
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I know that majority of my shooting will be between 100-400 asa, but I would like to have the option (specially with a $20K+ camera) of shooting 800 or above as needed. Of course it would be nice to have a good low light AF system with a camera that has limited mirror vibration similar to a Contax 645.


Right now I supplement my Canon DSLR's with my Hassy 501 shooting B&W Film and the magical Polaroid Type 55 (have a year supply) on my Littman 45. I'm pretty happy with this set-up but still I salivate at having a near no compromise digital MF system.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

[thsinar]

Josef,

have a look at the link given above in my earlier post: it should give you an idea about ISO 800 with available light (shot taken in the early morning during sunrise).

Best regards,
Thierry

I know that majority of my shooting will be between 100-400 asa, but I would like to have the option (specially with a $20K+ camera) of shooting 800 or above as needed. Of course it would be nice to have a good low light AF system with a camera that has limited mirror vibration similar to a Contax 645.

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[TMARK]

Oh... and the one reason I'm staying away from Mamiya is the 1/125 shutter sync. Forget trying to pop a strobe outdoors with that.

John Mireles
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Its a shame that the 125 sync speed is a deal breaker for you because the AFD is really hand holdable.  I can shoot at 1/30.  You can also get an RZ and get 1/400 for out door.  The Canons are what, 1/180, 1/250 sync?  I suppose a stop or so faster sync can make a difference, but I think I'd just as well use an nd filter anyway and bump the power on the strobes.

[Snook]

Its a shame that the 125 sync speed is a deal breaker for you because the AFD is really hand holdable.  I can shoot at 1/30.  You can also get an RZ and get 1/400 for out door.  The Canons are what, 1/180, 1/250 sync?  I suppose a stop or so faster sync can make a difference, but I think I'd just as well use an nd filter anyway and bump the power on the strobes.
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Polarizer is 2 stops..:+]
Snook