Itching for Stitching

[Quentin]

This is not exactly new, but nonetheless I am intersted in who regularly does this for the same reasons I give below.

I supose I am a nominally large format film photographer who no longer seems to shoot film.  Instead I have taken to pretending that 22mp digital capture is good enough.  

Well, it isn't (at least not always), and I have surmised that 39mp or somewhere in between is not quite there either.   My entirely subjective view based on my observations are that you need around 75mp to match 4x5 LF film when drum scanned.  YMMV.

So, recently I have been experimenting more seriously with using stitching software, not for panoramic image creation, but simply as an easy means of achieving the resolutions nominally required to match large format.  Using a Manfrotto pano head, and my Mamiya ZD and either the 80mm or 55mm lenses, this has worked pretty well provided I don't overdo it.

A successful workflow has involved just 6 images in two rows of 3 each, up to a maximum for flat projection of 4 images in three rows.  But the six shot option even allowing for overlap blending wastage, gets up to 4x5 territory without the expense and uncertaintly of LF film and with superior dynamic range potential.

I have been using PTGUi Pro, which also works with the free Enfuse plug-in to enable HDR blending and which is an excellent alternative to tone mapping for HDR stitching, and the Smartblend plug-in for blending (which I so far prefer to Enblend).  Resulting stiches look pretty natural with no visible joins.  The only downside is the processing time even on a fast PC.

I'm pretty enthusiastic about the portential for all kinds of landscape and architectural work, in effect a software resolution upgrade when needed.

Quentin

[jing q]

This is not exactly new, but nonetheless I am intersted in who regularly does this for the same reasons I give below.

I supose I am a nominally large format film photographer who no longer seems to shoot film.  Instead I have taken to pretending that 22mp digital capture is good enough. 

Well, it isn't (at least not always), and I have surmised that 39mp or somewhere in between is not quite there either.   My entirely subjective view based on my observations are that you need around 75mp to match 4x5 LF film when drum scanned.  YMMV.

So, recently I have been experimenting more seriously with using stitching software, not for panoramic image creation, but simply as an easy means of achieving the resolutions nominally required to match large format.  Using a Manfrotto pano head, and my Mamiya ZD and either the 80mm or 55mm lenses, this has worked pretty well provided I don't overdo it.

A successful workflow has involved just 6 images in two rows of 3 each, up to a maximum for flat projection of 4 images in three rows.  But the six shot option even allowing for overlap blending wastage, gets up to 4x5 territory without the expense and uncertaintly of LF film and with superior dynamic range potential.

I have been using PTGUi Pro, which also works with the free Enfuse plug-in to enable HDR blending and which is an excellent alternative to tone mapping for HDR stitching, and the Smartblend plug-in for blending (which I so far prefer to Enblend).  Resulting stiches look pretty natural with no visible joins.  The only downside is the processing time even on a fast PC.

I'm pretty enthusiastic about the portential for all kinds of landscape and architectural work, in effect a software resolution upgrade when needed.

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would love to hear more regarding your experience. What pano head are you using?
do you experience any misalignments from distortion, and how stable is the pano head? is it exact enough not to cause any misalignments when you shift it?

[shutay]

I just got the Manfrotto 303plus head to sit atop my 055 Pro B legs, and I have found that getting the no-parallax point is really important but also quite tedious to do. Unless I am getting it all wrong, I have found that you can still get into situations where the images don't line up on auto.

I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with this.

[Quentin]

I would love to hear more regarding your experience. What pano head are you using?
do you experience any misalignments from distortion, and how stable is the pano head? is it exact enough not to cause any misalignments when you shift it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi,

Im using a Manfrotto pano head lent to me by someone else!  Sorry not to be more specific; I'll post the details later on when I have access to the model number.   Using a proper pano head does make life easier. Click stops mean image spacing is accurate.

So far, almost zero misalignments and minimal distortion .  I shoot in portrait format.  Given I am capturing a "wide angle" shot with a standard lens, such distortions as there are are less apparent than with a genuine wide angle, and with no edge definition fall-off.  It is however important not to push things too far, which is why I don't go crazy with too many images.  Using a 22mp medium format camera means I am starting with quite high resolution in the first place, so it is not necessary to shoot dozens of images to achieve a large format effect.

I also take some care to align the lens over the nodal point.  That helps prevent errors.  The software I am using is excellent and will tell me if there are potential problems before stitching.

Quentin

[SeanBK]

I would love to hear more regarding your experience. What pano head are you using?
do you experience any misalignments from distortion, and how stable is the pano head? is it exact enough not to cause any misalignments when you shift it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 I use Really Right Stuff  "Ultimate-Pro Omni-Pivot Package" with RRS ballhead BH-55 & Gitzo tripod. This really gets the foundation right before the software & the camera takes over.

[Quentin]

I just got the Manfrotto 303plus head to sit atop my 055 Pro B legs, and I have found that getting the no-parallax point is really important but also quite tedious to do. Unless I am getting it all wrong, I have found that you can still get into situations where the images don't line up on auto.

I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What software are you using to stitch?  I can't praise the PTGui Pro / smartblend combination too highly and it is cost effective.  

Quentin

[Christopher Arnoldi]

I'm very pleased with PTGui, too. It's the only software that can stitch my images taken with the Schneider 24 mm without problems.

[MichaelEzra]

I have used Autopano Pro for sticthing of 20+ TIFF files from Mamiya ZD with a great success. I think Autopano Pro is a best software for the task, also considering the workflow. Autopano team is REALLY listening to the user's requests and is improving software on a constant basis.

I use Kaidan spherical pano head IV and would not recommend it. There is lack of support on Kaidan's side and the rotator is a bit shaky, it can never be set to rotate without woubling the horison line.

[shutay]

What software are you using to stitch?  I can't praise the PTGui Pro / smartblend combination too highly and it is cost effective. 

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have so far tried the PhotoMerge in Photoshop CS, AutoPano Pro, and I have been told that CS3's PhotoMerge is a lot better, so I will try that out if I can. I'll check out if PTGui has a trial version, definitely worth a try. I find that the experience with AutoPano Pro can be mixed - i've had situations where I've just machine gunned handheld (in a manner of speech) a few shots and it stitched them no problems, and other cases where I used the pano head with just 2 shots and had an alignment problem. I'm definitely doing something wrong here, I guess so perhaps it's "back to school" until I get it right.

I guess this is pretty important to me since the widest lens I have is the 50mm, AND I have the smaller 37x37 square sensor. The Bronica archives speak of some sort of mythical 35mm which unfortunately, I have never seen on the used market.  

[Mort54]

Hi Quentin. I sometimes stich 3 to 4 of my P45+ shots together in Photoshop CS3. I'm continually amazed at how good CS3 stiching is. Sometimes I do it for a pano, but I also do it to crank up the resolution on certain shots that are crying out for a lot of fine detail. I use a regular ball head and rely on CS3 to align the images. So far that's worked fine, unless you have something prominent in the foreground.

Mort.

[Dustbak]

Since CS3 I have not used PTGui anymore. I use RRS basic panohead (single row), in portrait mode. I made panos with the 80mm but now own the zoom as well as the 100 which should work significantly better.  

The only downside to the RRS I find is that the slider starts at 18cm's at the camera mount???    

IMO it would have made a lot more sense if the center at the camera mount would have started at 0 so you can set the distance for the nodal point precise. Now I need to subtract what I see from 18cm before I get the set distance.

Is anyone experiencing the same thing with the RRS or is my slider a fluke and do all other sliders start with 0 at the camera mount?

Fortunately someone at Hasselblad was so kind to state the nodal points distances of every HC lens in the spec's.

[Quentin]

Hi Quentin. I sometimes stich 3 to 4 of my P45+ shots together in Photoshop CS3. I'm continually amazed at how good CS3 stiching is. Sometimes I do it for a pano, but I also do it to crank up the resolution on certain shots that are crying out for a lot of fine detail. I use a regular ball head and rely on CS3 to align the images. So far that's worked fine, unless you have something prominent in the foreground.

Mort.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mort,

I have not tried CS3's pano stitching as yet, but perhaps I should.  Certainly PTGui seems pretty flawless at multi-row panos (with the Smarblend plug-in used for blending) and the Enfuse HDR plugiin allows simultanous HDR bending all in one step.  Pretty cool.

A dedicated Pano head does help too.

Quentin

[shutay]

Hi Mort,

I have not tried CS3's pano stitching as yet, but perhaps I should.  Certainly PTGui seems pretty flawless at multi-row panos (with the Smarblend plug-in used for blending) and the Enfuse HDR plugiin allows simultanous HDR bending all in one step.  Pretty cool.

A dedicated Pano head does help too.

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just tried a very quick 2 shot panorama with PTgui using the default settings and it would seem to have succeeded where AutoPano and PhotoShop CS failed on the same 2 shots. I shall try more panoramas in the days to come and perhaps compare how the different tools perform, but looking at this so far, it looks like PTgui is the champ.

[Gordon Buck]

CS2 stitching was not very good but CS3 is excellent.  CS3 stitching can work from RAW and generates a 16bit image with layers, blending and masks -- automatically.

[Panopeeper]

I'm very pleased with PTGui, too. It's the only software that can stitch my images taken with the Schneider 24 mm without problems.

This is certainly not true, neither is that a particular lens would pose particular problems.

The "father of stitchers" is Panorama Tools, which is free but it does not have an interactive user interface. There are at least three products based on Panorama Tools:

1. PTGUi,

2. Panorama Tools Assembler much cheaper than PTGUi),

3. Hugin (free).

[Mort54]

I just tried a very quick 2 shot panorama with PTgui using the default settings and it would seem to have succeeded where AutoPano and PhotoShop CS failed on the same 2 shots. I shall try more panoramas in the days to come and perhaps compare how the different tools perform, but looking at this so far, it looks like PTgui is the champ.

CS2 sucks, but CS3 is just about perfect. I have yet to find a combination that doesn't work in CS3. I've done multi-row stiches of 6 images with 39 MP images from a P45+ back and it works like a charm.

[Christopher Arnoldi]

This is certainly not true, neither is that a particular lens would pose particular problems.

The "father of stitchers" is Panorama Tools, which is free but it does not have an interactive user interface. There are at least three products based on Panorama Tools:

1. PTGUi,

2. Panorama Tools Assembler much cheaper than PTGUi),

3. Hugin (free).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

O.k., perhaps I've not testet all existing stitching software, only sofware for Mac. Before I had Stitcher, which is much more expensive, and I tested some other Mac-Software that was advised in a german forum. Some people in this forum tried to stitch my Schneider-Digitar-24mm Images with little success. The only Mac-Software which done it with ease then was PTGui.

I must confess that I don`t know Panorama Tools and Hugin, sorry.

[Kirk Gittings]

FWIW I use stitching weekly for my clients and have never found the necessity of going beyond CS3.


But my real question is........what is the "uncertainty of LF film"? I made my living for almost 30 years with 4x5 and never found it "uncertain".

[Panopeeper]

I must confess that I don`t know Panorama Tools and Hugin, sorry.

No need to be sorry, but you are working with Panorama Tools.

Although the PTGui team has re-written all or part of Panorama Tools, that is still Panorama Tools (I think you can now choose between the original PT and PTGUi's version).

Panorama Tools Assembler too is working with Panorama Tools. The capabilitiess of PTGUi and PTAssembler are virtually identical, with different user interfaces. The real stitching capability still comes from the original PT. Its originator layed the foundation for a precise geometrical approach, which has become the "standard".

Autopano, Photoshop, etc. are only for unassuming projects.

[Quentin]

FWIW I use stitching weekly for my clients and have never found the necessity of going beyond CS3.
But my real question is........what is the "uncertainty of LF film"? I made my living for almost 30 years with 4x5 and never found it "uncertain".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lots - fogged film, development errors, exposure mistakes, you name it.  I have not suffered from these problems much, if at all, but there is always the fear of disaster.  Maybe I'm just the nervous type...

Then there is the cost.  Expensive.


Quentin