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James R Russell

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Why bother?
« on: May 06, 2008, 01:19:34 am »

Lately I've received a lot of e-mails that pretty much say don't bother sharing on this forum.

Mostly due to some of the recent posts by a few selfish people that continue the same argument without any real means to an end.

I guess they've found that it's easier to light a match and burn a building down, rather than roll up their sleeves and build something worthwhile.

Without getting on a soap box or trying to tell anyone what to do, I think it would make more sense if I explained why I put any effort into this.

to begin with I learned digital on the forums, some from the wedding guys at DP review (especially the little Fuji Forum) and a lot from the various people on the old RG forums.

Yes both those forums got wild (dp probably irreparable) and RG too restrictive, but both in their prime offered a lot of real honest information that not only informed but allowed me to publicly write and in that process think deeper about my work and how I go about producing, shooting and marketing a photograph.

It also is good to get  out there in public and except the good and the bad. It keeps me on my toes and I believe allows the makers of the equipment we rely so heavily  to see the real world use of what all of us need in pressured situations.  Hopefully they take this information and respond positively.

On a side note, I personally respect the way Michael runs these forums.  I don't always agree with him, (just ask him), but I do think that Michael has accomplished things that few people in photography or publishing have achieved.

He has built an electronic publishing house that is a true brand.  One that not only offers free advice, product reviews and information, but allows for complete viewer participation, usually for free.

I've spoken to Michael a few times and can tell you his head and his heart is in the right place, so let's not get drunk and trash his house, at least if we do, let's be willing to clean it up.

So my point, if I have one is don't let a few never ending discussions and even rude remarks keep any of us for giving and receiving what can be found in these many millions of words because there is real worth in a lot of this information.

Thanks

JR


P.S.  For those that know me personally, they can testify that I'm not Mr. Nice Guy, even keeled, let it roll off my back type of person.

In the last few weeks I've bit a few holes in my tounge by holding back and not responding what was in my heart, (thought probably not in my head).

Don't think for a moment I'm advocating a non controversial forum of dialog or one that requires we all sing Kum ba yah, hold hands and share panties.

That's not my style.
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pixjohn

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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 01:26:25 am »

Why even bother with the people who want to argue, just move on to the people who want to communicate.
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Ray

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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 01:54:53 am »

James,
I agree with many of your points. It's a shame that some contributors to this forum cannot keep a civil tongue and behave like mature adults.

However, I think you should give some thought as to why some topics keep re-appearing. In my opinion, it's because the issues raised have never been resolved, for one reason or another.

I understand it might be infuriating for any professional when his/her opinion is questioned, and as we all know, prima donnas and 'artistes' can be very sensitive.

However, (if it makes you feel better) nobody in history has ever been right all of the time.

It might feel rather demeaning for some professionals when they are asked to graphically demonstrate the reasons they hold a particular opinion. I'm sure it's much more comfortable if everyone takes the attitude, for example, that James Russell produces fine photographs, therefore he must know what he's doing and any opinion he offers on photographic matters should politely not be questioned.

I get a sense that this thread you've started is directed towards the 14 page 1Ds3 v MFDB thread (correct me if I'm wrong). If I'm right, that this is the impetus for this post, then I'm amazed that at least you cannot see the absurdity of such a long thread not containing a single, competently carried out comparison between a 1Ds3 and equivalent DB of similar pixel count, which is the subject of the thread.
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Ray

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 02:03:07 am »

Quote
Why even bother with the people who want to argue, just move on to the people who want to communicate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Arguing is communication. There's simply not enough of it on this forum, because many people don't seem to know what an argument is, or to put it another way, their only understanding of an argument is the colloquial meaning of beating up the opponent, insulting them and engaging in ad hominen attacks which have no bearing on the subject matter under discussion.

I'm always polite in my discussions.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 04:20:38 am »

ultimately i am a little bit lazy in writing here, maybe because i said most things already i learned about digital gear and i dont like to repeat myself over and over.
furthermore i think the only way to respond to people which i would call trolls  is not to argue with them. this disussions lead to nothing than nonsense, although there are posts in it which really are worth to read, as your long response about the different systems, james.

lots of things which i could only do for reading and ( more so ) sharing here and in other boards, i think this forums are a big thing in the internet.
i admire the tolerant way michael is letting run this forum, passing it over big crisis in a very quiet and sovereign way, so he is right not coming in this discussions. i believe LL and esp. this mf board will not brake down by a little number of trolls, as i think this are very very few people, compared to many who share with good intention and experience and compared to a surprising big number of people who just read.


in general i learned a lot in these forums. esp. when i started with digital some years ago. sharing deepened my experience and the thinking about the problems, which motly heve been caused by simple technical flaws. i am opened to give back knowledge in the same way i picked it up, and i raised my personal experience-level in discussions with others. for me this was very important and so i go on to spend time here, which is often the time i am waiting in any case for some image processions to be done.
funny is that with no tools i learned more about digital capturing or technic than with the cameras which did not work as expected. e.g. i have shot things with the kodak 14n and slr, using workarounds and ways i only can wonder myself  how i did it, today looking back. i did this after i realized that digital capturing could bring another aesthetic and another language in my images which i did not wanted to give up again. unfortunately nearly nothing worked as announced or expected, so i tried to find ways that this tools could work for me.
result has been to learn to shoot with the kodaks only with iso6 and 2,4 greyfilters in daylight .... working with grey shots, layering and inverting these to remove the color casts and so on. this technics really have had to be invented or collected in this time, this was possible only because i discussed the problems in forums and added the experence of others to my own.
after getting the e22 i asked mr. gottschalt to build a sliding back for his cameras because i never was content with the possibilities the market offered, which meant  to work with distorted optical viewers or to remove the back all the time if i wanted to use a groundglass.
later i searched a way to make work the first e75 unit i had,- unlinear color response, centerfold, color shifts, but i wanted to continue to work with this back .... so i found stephan hess in an old post here in ll, contacted him and together we improved his brumbaer tools to a level none of the big companies has gone from its own. getting as result a very personal and pratical workflow for my architecture work and a lot of knowledge. which i could share later even with manufacturers. soon you will see some results  ....
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 05:10:54 am by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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mcfoto

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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 04:36:21 am »

Hi
I think this is a great form. Glad to have you back James!
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Stuarte

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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 05:03:37 am »

At the risk of sounding not just like a photo amateur but also like a naive fool, I'm not too sure what the issue is in this thread.

I've found this forum to be wonderfully informative and stimulating, and generally pretty good-tempered.  Asking some dumb questions, as I sometimes do, I occasionally get some terse answers.  But I've also had a lot of encouragement and even found an excellent tele-teacher thanks to his postings on LL.

Some threads are just too snarly and tit-for-tatty to bother with.  Some threads are about the intricacies of MF, which are not relevant for me at this time.  But many are more than worth my time.

My main complaint would be that there aren't enough women active in here.  When lots of men with gadgets get together in the same place, pizzing contents are always a risk.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 05:04:09 am by Stuarte »
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Dale Allyn

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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 05:15:16 am »

As one who really appreciates quality forums, which are so rare on the 'net nowadays, I'd like to encourage all who can help others by sharing their experiences and thoughts, to continue to do so here.

I have never posted in the MFDB forum because I have little to contribute (pertaining to the format), but I'm currently in the process of considering adding MF to my kit (actually, I have been for some time now). Currently I'm measuring whether my goals will be better met by adding a Canon 1Ds3 and a CZ lens or two to complement my current L lens collection, or to go with entry to mid-level MFDB. This forum is very helpful to those of us wishing to learn from those who have been working with these alternate tools. I am one to greatly appreciate information shared among those who have a love of photography, and do so without the arrogance which so typically permeates the MFDB or "Pro" forums on many other boards. (Actually, the arrogance [and ignorance] is often not limited to pro forums on the photography boards.)

That being said, after reading every post of a certain 14 page (as of today) thread, I can understand the frustration expressed by several members here. Please understand that while certain threads seem to turn in to "sport arguing" and pissing contests, there is often good information posted which is of use to those members who attempt to shed the "spray" of... well, you know. I understand the interest in a side-by-side comparison of the tools being discussed in that thread, but it's incredibly obvious (to me) that such a comparison will just feed in to more 14-page threads. Every board has participants who are sincerely helpful and those who enjoy the sport of online sparring. Let's not allow those who love to spar to dissuade those who simply love photography and sharing in a way that can benefit others.

In my case, I'm counting on some of the members of this board to contribute to my process. The more routine or "normal" climate here in the MFDB forum (and other areas of the LL boards) is a very useful resource and seems to be a generally mutually respectful community.

Thanks,

Dale
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 05:23:42 am by DFAllyn »
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elitegroup

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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 06:26:57 am »

Quote
James,


However, I think you should give some thought as to why some topics keep re-appearing. In my opinion, it's because the issues raised have never been resolved, for one reason or another.

I get a sense that this thread you've started is directed towards the 14 page 1Ds3 v MFDB thread (correct me if I'm wrong). If I'm right, that this is the impetus for this post, then I'm amazed that at least you cannot see the absurdity of such a long thread not containing a single, competently carried out comparison between a 1Ds3 and equivalent DB of similar pixel count, which is the subject of the thread.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When we are attached to our perceptions, we create an ideal of how we believe others/things/circumstances should or shouldn't be. This is a form of judgement, a protruberation of self intention projected onto another, This creates suffering    

According to Newton's theory of gravitational physics 'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'

dettachment dissipates the need for judgement, for one is able to see what 'is' and not what should/must be.

Dettachment leads to acceptance and this leads to freedom and peace of mind  
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SeanBK

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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 08:19:59 am »

James, I for one learn looking at your vision & execution for which I thank you. Like the old adage goes you can't please all the people all the time, but you do please a lotsa people.  
  Looking forward & learning from your contribution in " "How it was done" Recent Works 2.0, LL version of the thefstopmag.com" thread in M.F  
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eronald

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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 09:08:13 am »

Quote
James, I for one learn looking at your vision & execution for which I thank you. Like the old adage goes you can't please all the people all the time, but you do please a lotsa people.   
  Looking forward & learning from your contribution in " "How it was done" Recent Works 2.0, LL version of the thefstopmag.com" thread in M.F 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193762\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,

 I like to look at your *pictures*, regardless of how they're made, the mood interests me.
 If I do fashion again, I hope to carry some of the lessons from your work over to my own.

Edmund
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woof75

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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 09:10:14 am »

Quote
Lately I've received a lot of e-mails that pretty much say don't bother sharing on this forum.

Mostly due to some of the recent posts by a few selfish people that continue the same argument without any real means to an end.

I guess they've found that it's easier to light a match and burn a building down, rather than roll up their sleeves and build something worthwhile.

Without getting on a soap box or trying to tell anyone what to do, I think it would make more sense if I explained why I put any effort into this.

to begin with I learned digital on the forums, some from the wedding guys at DP review (especially the little Fuji Forum) and a lot from the various people on the old RG forums.

Yes both those forums got wild (dp probably irreparable) and RG too restrictive, but both in their prime offered a lot of real honest information that not only informed but allowed me to publicly write and in that process think deeper about my work and how I go about producing, shooting and marketing a photograph.

It also is good to get  out there in public and except the good and the bad. It keeps me on my toes and I believe allows the makers of the equipment we rely so heavily  to see the real world use of what all of us need in pressured situations.  Hopefully they take this information and respond positively.

On a side note, I personally respect the way Michael runs these forums.  I don't always agree with him, (just ask him), but I do think that Michael has accomplished things that few people in photography or publishing have achieved.

He has built an electronic publishing house that is a true brand.  One that not only offers free advice, product reviews and information, but allows for complete viewer participation, usually for free.

I've spoken to Michael a few times and can tell you his head and his heart is in the right place, so let's not get drunk and trash his house, at least if we do, let's be willing to clean it up.

So my point, if I have one is don't let a few never ending discussions and even rude remarks keep any of us for giving and receiving what can be found in these many millions of words because there is real worth in a lot of this information.

Thanks

JR
P.S.  For those that know me personally, they can testify that I'm not Mr. Nice Guy, even keeled, let it roll off my back type of person.

In the last few weeks I've bit a few holes in my tounge by holding back and not responding what was in my heart, (thought probably not in my head).

Don't think for a moment I'm advocating a non controversial forum of dialog or one that requires we all sing Kum ba yah, hold hands and share panties.

That's not my style.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193720\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 I absolutely agree with you James, I had a very similar conversation with my wife yesterday as to why I bother and I found myself explaining to her a very similar story to you. I learnt digital from dpreview and robgalbraith. Dpreview did get to be the wild west, I was banned from robgalbraith for an absurd reason which was so typical of what happened there. LL forums is a good place and I have a great respect for the way Michael runs the forum and the site. His heart is in the right place. Virtually my entire education on digital is from these forums and I owe them a great deal for that.
We must all work hard to not trash Michaels house and I need to work harder at letting arguments go and we all need to know when to bite our tongues and let threads that need to die die to stop this becoming another dpreview. I agree, it is worth the bother.
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ynp

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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 11:20:31 am »

Dear James,

There are a lot of people in world who have been  following the RG and LL medium format digital forums for several years. And your contributions were one of the reasons people paid attention. They were like reports from the front-line  and one of the very few sources of  real information. There are a lot of places where is NO support from the dealers, pros have very limited experience with MF digital or just unwilling to share their knowledge with laymen.

I know at least several people here in Russia who never posted to the forum but followed the discussions and under your influence chose the equipment and took your advice on the workflow.

I am an amateur and have a very limited experience. I was struggling with my Sinar eMotion back left without help from a dealer or  more experienced photographers. Rainer's and Stephan's (Brumbaer) advice and guidance from Thierry and information from other posters let me overcome  the difficulties and problems. I am still not talented but more ore less OK from the technical point of view.

BTW My daughter  has been doing a Russian language digest for her Design School and a lot of real life info on recent development in digital photography  and ink-jet printing was found on the LL forum.

Thank you all,
Yevgeny
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dalethorn

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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 02:40:30 pm »

I vote for facts. Even if unverified or alleged, just having names, dates, and other reference info is helpful in checking things out. And a photo is definitely a fact.
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SecondFocus

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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 03:04:19 pm »

You are correct, there are a couple of people who try to dominate the forums with their useless essays. And I have for one almost bailed out too.

However I remembered why I came here, and that was to learn and to see what other pros are really doing. So I have opted to really ignore those few people and to not engage them. Although I will occasionally make a little jab.

But in that regard I have stayed on and tried to keep the level of conversation better and more professional as best I can hoping that of we all do so that it will minimize the noise we have to put up with.

So I would ask that everyone who is here on a regular basis do the same. Just ignore those special persons. So please James, just hang in there and let it go. And believe me, I am no shy retiring type myself, not even close.

Now let me say this. I would welcome a breakout forum within these forums for professionals only. I would be pleased to pay a fee, I would only ask that it be limited. People would have to have their real name and info verified, perhaps a website or photo review and ultimately even a referral from an existing member requirement. This has worked over at SportsShooter and the quality and relationships among the membership is superb.

Thanks!
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wolfnowl

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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 03:08:32 pm »

As an 'advanced amateur' when it comes to photography - less still with digital, the LL forums are my main contact point with other photographers.  I really appreciate the sharing that goes on here and there is a LOT of knowledge spread out among the forums.  I'm also pretty selective when it comes to what I read and if a thread disintegrates into a shouting match I just move on. But to Michael, James, Andy, Jeff and others who share their expertise, and to everyone who shares their experiences, my thanks.

Mike.

"I tried to teach you to be yourself but I find that I cannot.  I can only teach you to be me, for I am the only model that I have."
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semillerimages

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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 01:38:17 pm »

James,

Thanks for sticking around and thanks for the info and pictures you give to the forum. You, amongst the handful of others are the reason why I read and lurk about in these forums. I only wish that more of RG gang that you used to banter with would come here also... Mark comes to mind

Your contributions are well appreciated as are Michael's for providing the space. Thank you.

*steve
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 05:00:39 pm »

James

You and Mark Tucker are the reason why I'm here evey day.
I have been reading your post since the RG times.
This is not a fanboy post. I just like your style of photography and your style of putting
things in perspective. Maybe it's because I see this whole photography biz pretty much the same way you do. So it's always good to here some other photographers speak out stuff, that I'm thinking all the time.
I'm swiss, so writing long posts in english takes to long for me, that's why I'm more lurking around and enjoy the drama that sometimes comes up here.

How ever, keep on posting and keep it on the point like usual. We dont need sisy talk here but we also have to beheave like grown up people.

Michael created a great place to visit daily. 98% of the folks here are realy nice and almost like friends to me.  Let's keep it that way.

Keep on posting man. I'm all with ya.

Cheers
Tim
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