1DS3--Just got it, WB problem?

[dwdallam]

I received my 1DS3 today. I took a few snaps of walls and lined up the viewfinder on them, and viewed them in the LCD. It looks like a prefect alignment. I haven't checked the images out of camera yet. So that is at least promising.

However, my living room has fluorescent lighting. NO matter how I adjusted the WB, from AWB to manually adjusting the color temp, I'm getting very yellow results. I've tried dialing the WB down to 2500 and it's still very yellow. I tested my 5D in the same room and light using AWB and the image was nicely balanced.

Unless I'm overlooking something, the 1DS3 I just got looks like it may have a WB issue.

Any ideas on this?

From my first experimentation, this model has some very nice updates, like live camera setting on the back of the LCD panel so you don't have to climb on a ladder to see the top LCD panel. ISO in the viewfinder--ok this wasn't genius and should have been there on all cameras. At least it's there now. Something that will take getting use to--no MODE dial--gone. To change modes, manual shutter priority, etc, is now done on the LCD panel, top or back, after pushing the mode button. I like this because you can see it it the dark now without having to get out your pen light, or trial and error fumbling. And, after all, this is the digital age, not the mechanical age. AF OFF button--yep. Again, no fumbling around on the lens at night. Last, if the new 5D comes out with 16MP, I don't know if the DS3 is justifiable, unless you actually need the pixels and the weather sealing, given that the new 5D would be around 3500US--and especially if the processor was the same and the noise was much less due to less pixel density. But that is a topic for anotehr discussion and time.

However, this WB issue has me worried. Hopefully I can get it figured out with help here.

[joedecker]

I haven't checked the images out of camera yet.
...
Unless I'm overlooking something, the 1DS3 I just got looks like it may have a WB issue.
...
Any ideas on this?

And you're only checking this on the rear LCD?  I haven't noticed a problem with that, but I tend not to pay too much attention to the WB of images in-camera in any case, the problem could be entirely with in-camera display.  

I'd start by checking the images out of camera, both RAW and JPG, and trying the color balance adjustment out of camera from RAW.

(Florescent light is problematic as a rule, but that's not the problem you're describing.)

[sojournerphoto]

I received my 1DS3 today. I took a few snaps of walls and lined up the viewfinder on them, and viewed them in the LCD. It looks like a prefect alignment. I haven't checked the images out of camera yet. So that is at least promising.

However, my living room has fluorescent lighting. NO matter how I adjusted the WB, from AWB to manually adjusting the color temp, I'm getting very yellow results. I've tried dialing the WB down to 2500 and it's still very yellow. I tested my 5D in the same room and light using AWB and the image was nicely balanced.

Unless I'm overlooking something, the 1DS3 I just got looks like it may have a WB issue.

Any ideas on this?

From my first experimentation, this model has some very nice updates, like live camera setting on the back of the LCD panel so you don't have to climb on a ladder to see the top LCD panel. ISO in the viewfinder--ok this wasn't genius and should have been there on all cameras. At least it's there now. Something that will take getting use to--no MODE dial--gone. To change modes, manual shutter priority, etc, is now done on the LCD panel, top or back, after pushing the mode button. I like this because you can see it it the dark now without having to get out your pen light, or trial and error fumbling. And, after all, this is the digital age, not the mechanical age. AF OFF button--yep. Again, no fumbling around on the lens at night. Last, if the new 5D comes out with 16MP, I don't know if the DS3 is justifiable, unless you actually need the pixels and the weather sealing, given that the new 5D would be around 3500US--and especially if the processor was the same and the noise was much less due to less pixel density. But that is a topic for anotehr discussion and time.

However, this WB issue has me worried. Hopefully I can get it figured out with help here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd check some raws. For tungsten Canon seems to have a view that wb should not be adjusted to give neutrality - i.e. to leave in some of the lights character, so flourescents may look warm/green i.e. yellow in tone.

Mike

[canmiya]

I received my 1DS3 today. I took a few snaps of walls and lined up the viewfinder on them, and viewed them in the LCD. It looks like a prefect alignment. I haven't checked the images out of camera yet. So that is at least promising.

However, my living room has fluorescent lighting. NO matter how I adjusted the WB, from AWB to manually adjusting the color temp, I'm getting very yellow results. I've tried dialing the WB down to 2500 and it's still very yellow. I tested my 5D in the same room and light using AWB and the image was nicely balanced.

Unless I'm overlooking something, the 1DS3 I just got looks like it may have a WB issue.

Any ideas on this?

From my first experimentation, this model has some very nice updates, like live camera setting on the back of the LCD panel so you don't have to climb on a ladder to see the top LCD panel. ISO in the viewfinder--ok this wasn't genius and should have been there on all cameras. At least it's there now. Something that will take getting use to--no MODE dial--gone. To change modes, manual shutter priority, etc, is now done on the LCD panel, top or back, after pushing the mode button. I like this because you can see it it the dark now without having to get out your pen light, or trial and error fumbling. And, after all, this is the digital age, not the mechanical age. AF OFF button--yep. Again, no fumbling around on the lens at night. Last, if the new 5D comes out with 16MP, I don't know if the DS3 is justifiable, unless you actually need the pixels and the weather sealing, given that the new 5D would be around 3500US--and especially if the processor was the same and the noise was much less due to less pixel density. But that is a topic for anotehr discussion and time.

However, this WB issue has me worried. Hopefully I can get it figured out with help here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

have you tried the fluorescent wb setting?  there are a couple of different types of fluorescents:  they can range from warm white( generally under 3300k,) to cool white( 3500k-about 4200k) to daylight fluorescent which can run north of 5800k...

[Tony Beach]

However, my living room has fluorescent lighting. NO matter how I adjusted the WB, from AWB to manually adjusting the color temp, I'm getting very yellow results. I've tried dialing the WB down to 2500 and it's still very yellow. I tested my 5D in the same room and light using AWB and the image was nicely balanced.

Unless I'm overlooking something, the 1DS3 I just got looks like it may have a WB issue.

Any ideas on this?  ...this WB issue has me worried. Hopefully I can get it figured out with help here.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

First, for accurate colors shoot in RAW using a gray card reference shot -- this applies to all DSLRs, even your 5D.  Second, manually set your shutter speed to 1/125, 1/60 or 1/30 if you are in the United States (in Europe the numbers are 1/100, 1/50 or 1/25).  Using non-Manual Exposure Modes can result in slight variations to shutter speeds that will cause color shifts with fluorescent lighting and these variations will not show up in your EXIF data (for instance, 1/55 will display as 1/60).

[dwdallam]

I actually tried setting the white balance all the way down to minimum of 2500 and dialing it up to max. All images were very yellow casted. Even at 2500K I could not get the very yellow cast out of the image--but again, this was on the LCD panel.

I'll check the images out of camera in raw--which is all I shoot anyway. Perhaps the LCD panel is not as accurate--or didn't get calibrated--as the 5D's LCD is.

I did this little test using full stop shutter speeds, such as 1/15, 1/30, 60, 125, 250, etc. I also tried using the preset for florescent, and I tried manually dialing from 2500 to max. All very yellow on the LCD. It was just like it only got worse, never better.

I would not expect the DS3's LCD panel to be so different from the 5D's, "different" meaning "worse" as in not even being able to display a likeness of how the image was WB'ed.

Yes, using a grey card and WBing like that is the most accurate, but then again, unless I'm wrong, you only have the minimum to maximum setting in K no matter what. So if you dial the kelvins from minimum to max, and take a picture every tick, you should hit a very close balanced temperature while dialing through the spectrum--which I did with no luck.

In any event, I'll try again tonight and see what I get. Also remeber that the 5D is producing very good balance in AWB mode, at least on the LCD panel.

[Andy M]

 is all I can say about this topic.

     

[dwdallam]

is all I can say about this topic.

    
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep. I'm going to test it again right now. If it's not correct on screen, I'll try to get tech help from Canon n teh phone tomorrow. If they can't fix it, it's going back.

[Andy M]

Doug, WB matters not one iota on the rear LCD if you're shooting RAW.

If you're honestly unhappy with this, may I recommend you send the camera back and either revert back to your 5D or buy a film camera?

If your rear LCD is showing odd colours no matter what light you're shooting in, then fair enough, but if your unhappiness is only due to a tungsten shade when shooting indoors then there's nothing to worry about. Shoot on auto WB and change accordingly in PP.

[dwdallam]

Doug, WB matters not one iota on the rear LCD if you're shooting RAW.

If you're honestly unhappy with this, may I recommend you send the camera back and either revert back to your 5D or buy a film camera?

If your rear LCD is showing odd colours no matter what light you're shooting in, then fair enough, but if your unhappiness is only due to a tungsten shade when shooting indoors then there's nothing to worry about. Shoot on auto WB and change accordingly in PP.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andy,

I'll let you make up your mind for yourself. Handheld for both cameras. Same lens, etc. All EXIF data is in the raw files:

[a href=\"http://dwdallam.com/shared/]http://dwdallam.com/shared/[/url]
File names:
1ds3.cr2
5d.cr2

However, if you are saying that the 5D produces better WB using any setting when compared to the DS3, or that the DS3 CAN'T white balance in the same setting that the 5D can, then I would say it is indeed something to worry about.

I didn't invest in an 8, 000US camera to have it's WB capability outperformed by a 2500US camera. That is unacceptable to me. Also, the DS3 seems to be blowing highlights, while the 5D is not. Both cameras are set to aperture priority and 2.8 and metering mode, same scene and lens. If that is also true, I'd say that's a big problem also. I'll do exposure accuracy testing tomorrow outside in a contrasty environment and compare the two cameras exposures.

I'm also getting sharper images out of the 5D using the same settings as above with AF on both cameras, but I'm hand holding. I'll have to put both of them on a tripod and test that also. If that is truly the case, the camera may just need to be calibrated. But I don't want to send in a brand new camera for service. Especially with the price tag as it is.

From my perspective, if the DS3 cannot WB as good as a 5D, or AF as well, nor expose as well, that is completely unacceptable to me. I consider those defects. But let us not speculate on anything except WB for now, and the files are there for all to download and see what you all think.

[Jonathan Wienke]

First of all expecting the tiny LCD on the back of the camera to be perfectly color-calibrated is stupid. The color cast it has will change depending on ambient lighting anyway. I looked at the RAW, and without having a Color Checker it's hard to tell exactly, but 2450, +20 looks pretty reasonable. Regarding the metering, you should go by the histogram, not the meter. Meter calibration will vary from camera to camera and model to model, and expecting the exact same exposure level with the same ISO, aperture, and shutter speed between two cameras is not realistic.

I think you'd be a fool to return the camera.

[sojournerphoto]

tbh I don't really see a problem. Both cameras produce similar wb numbers when opened in ACR, and neither is particularly pleasing as both are too warm. I think that ACR wb settings of around 2600 to 2700 temp and tint of about 25 to 28 should fix either image (though for all I know you might have a pink settee:)) Based on how the images look it seems that both cameras have defaulted to a fluorescent wb setting that is not appropriate for your lighting.

Overall, I think that the 1Ds3 is slightly better at auto wb than the 5d, based on the less than 20 jpegs I've shot. Also, images in LR open up usually slightly better. I recently shot in a gym with fluorescents and the auto wb was not very pleasing, but I finished up using 3600 60 as ACR settings to get nice skin tones. I didn't have the 5D with me that day, but I don't think it would have been any better.

As to the other points the 1Ds3 meters at least as well as the 5D, and I'm equally likely to dial in positive as negative exposure comp. It focuses much better than the 5D, but the 100% view is less forgiving due to the increased file size. This also applies to camera shake as well as out of focus blur.

Hope it's OK really

Mike

[Ray]

I don't see a problem either. Both images seem reasonably exposed to the right and have a similar temperature and tint in ACR.

I'm using Camera Raw 4.3.1. Clicking on 'Auto' results in a highlight recovery of 30 for the 5D and 34 for the 1Ds3, bringing both histograms slightly away from the right vertical.

Clicking on 'Auto WB' results in a temperature of 2850 for both files, but a tint of +24 for the 5D and +20 for the 1Ds3. Both files look very similar on opening.

It's well known that the 5D slightly understates its ISO sensitivity. ISO 100 is actually closer to ISO 125. The 1Ds3 has more accurate ISO labelling.

The exposures of 1/5th sec for the 5D and 1/3rd sec for the 1Ds3 are roughly in line with these differences in ISO sensitivity.

There's nothing wrong here, dwdallam. You're fussing over nothing   .

[Ray]

Perhaps I spoke too hastily. There is something wrong. The focussing is different beteeen the two shots. I'm getting very sensitive about misfocussing. Since most of my shots are landscapes using a fairly small aperture to get extensive DoF, I've never been particularly concerned about slight misfocussing. It's rarely been apparent.

When testing my lenses for sharpness, I've relied upon aliasing artifacts visible through the viewfinder when shooting a test chart.

However, after acquiring a 40D with Liveview, I've rather suddenly become aware of the total mess of accurate autofocussing. It doesn't seem to exist.

[clawery]

Have you gone into the menu and cleared all camera settings?  Just a thought.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

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[sojournerphoto]

Perhaps I spoke too hastily. There is something wrong. The focussing is different beteeen the two shots. I'm getting very sensitive about misfocussing. Since most of my shots are landscapes using a fairly small aperture to get extensive DoF, I've never been particularly concerned about slight misfocussing. It's rarely been apparent.

When testing my lenses for sharpness, I've relied upon aliasing artifacts visible through the viewfinder when shooting a test chart.

However, after acquiring a 40D with Liveview, I've rather suddenly become aware of the total mess of accurate autofocussing. It doesn't seem to exist.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't forget that the 1Ds3 can calibrate individual lenses. Doug this is worthwhile doing. I used the moire script and will try to find a link

Mike

[joedecker]

Thanks for posting the CR2.

Adjusting white balance to get rid of the warmth you describe was as easy as an eyedropper in ACR, but it did leave me concerned, as one other posted alluded to, if I white balance of the Samsung box (which I assume is white), the couch gets a bit pink to light purple.  So, is the sofa really white, too?  

In any case I'm seeing the same sort of color effects in both the 5D and 1Ds3 images processed with Camera Raw, so if those colors are realistic (if your couch is pinker than your Samsung box) then there's no problem with the RAW processing itself.

If the colors aren't right, that may still be true--note that both cameras are giving similar results to that raw processing.  I'm wondering a little bit about whether the cameras are picking up some sort of fluorescence .. but see, now, I'm getting ahead of myself.  Is the sofa pinker (or less green) than the Samsung box in real life?

[dwdallam]

First of all expecting the tiny LCD on the back of the camera to be perfectly color-calibrated is stupid. The color cast it has will change depending on ambient lighting anyway. I looked at the RAW, and without having a Color Checker it's hard to tell exactly, but 2450, +20 looks pretty reasonable. Regarding the metering, you should go by the histogram, not the meter. Meter calibration will vary from camera to camera and model to model, and expecting the exact same exposure level with the same ISO, aperture, and shutter speed between two cameras is not realistic.

I think you'd be a fool to return the camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good, because I DO NOT WANT TOO!!! I really do love it in all other ways. You know, it's even more simple to use than my 5D in many respects. The organization on it is nothing less than beautiful.

[dwdallam]

Thanks for posting the CR2.

Adjusting white balance to get rid of the warmth you describe was as easy as an eyedropper in ACR, but it did leave me concerned, as one other posted alluded to, if I white balance of the Samsung box (which I assume is white), the couch gets a bit pink to light purple.  So, is the sofa really white, too? 

In any case I'm seeing the same sort of color effects in both the 5D and 1Ds3 images processed with Camera Raw, so if those colors are realistic (if your couch is pinker than your Samsung box) then there's no problem with the RAW processing itself.

If the colors aren't right, that may still be true--note that both cameras are giving similar results to that raw processing.  I'm wondering a little bit about whether the cameras are picking up some sort of fluorescence .. but see, now, I'm getting ahead of myself.  Is the sofa pinker (or less green) than the Samsung box in real life?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Naw you are correct when you say the Samsung box is white and the couch is off white. Also the walls are a very light brown/tan color which increases color cast.

[dwdallam]

OK to all of your posts.

Jon, yes I know that to be accurate use the histogram, as I always do. I was just seeing a difference between the 5D and the DS3 in that the 1DS3 seems to blow the highlights more often in high contrast images when it says it has a 'correct exposure' when in evaluative mode.

Also, I was reading the manual today, and it says you can calibrate the WB for each setting. I wonder if I can dial in the WB in camera for fluorescent?

As far a AF accuracy goes--I sure would be grateful for a way to send up a cr2 file so you can all see if my DS3 needs it. I'll take images full frame with all three of my lenses, plus the 1.4 extender. I suppose it would be some sort of line chart?

BTW the Samsung box is from a new color laser printer. It's the 610ND. Color prints on plain paper are immaculate--for a laser. I got it because I wanted to print color on things that ink jets don't do well with, and create tear sheets whenever I want--in color--and printable on plain paper ON BOTH SIDES. Yes, it comes with full duplex printing capability.

The color accuracy using Adobe 1998, with no color calibration in printer, was very accurate. Almost unbelievably so. Plus you can adjust color accuracy in printer software.  I know I could have gotten a ink jet, but this printer has a 299.00US price point, and it's pennys compared to an ink jet of the same quality in cost per page. Plus, it's text is superior. So anyway, just for any of you who were wondering. It also DOES print at 21+ PPM in both color and B&W. Color lasers have come a long way.