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Author Topic: Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter  (Read 5834 times)

NikosR

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« on: April 30, 2008, 04:28:33 am »

Perhaps you will be interested in commenting to my philosophical moaning below:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=25031
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Nikos

Schewe

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 12:00:20 pm »

Quote
Perhaps you will be interested in commenting to my philosophical moaning below:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ya know....cross-posting in multiple threads to draw attention to another thread is really considered poor form...
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Peter_DL

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 04:28:16 pm »

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The trend in the last few years has been to enhance raw converters with lots of functions to make them pretty much universal and flexible tools for the digital potographer. I certainly believe this is a good thing in principle, although opinions will vary as to how much functionality a raw converter program must have before it becomes too bloated.

However, what bugs me is that, in adding image processing capabilities to their programs, developers have not made a comprehensive attempt at clearly separating (or indicating and documenting for that matter) functions that are applied to the raw (un-demosaiced) data from ones that are applied to de-mosaiced RGB data (or bitmaps). Furthermore, I have noticed no effort in indicating which functions are applied on linear or gamma-corrected data.

I believe that functions like EV compensation, WB adjustment, highlight recovery are functions that operate on raw data. In contrast, things like curves, most colour corrections, vibrancy or local contrast adjustements probably operate on de-mosaiced data and, as such, they are not different in principle than equivalent adjustements that can be performed on a TIFF file with an external editor (workflow considerations not withstanding).
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
>> So we are again at the question why some of us do such fancy things i.e. to skip many of the creative tools in ACR in order to start from scratch with a "scene-referred image" in Photoshop. Actually I came to this with ACR version 2.x where many of the nice rendering controls which we are now appreciating were simply not given at this point of time.

Nonetheless, I still find this route to be a viable option e.g. for some operations such as blending of images or noise reduction which often benefit from "virgin" data -- which have not been squeezed so far through the notorious tone curve and other tools which are supposed to belong to the category of "creative processing" at the stage of ProPhoto linear with ACR (as opposed to those controls which are really essential for matrix conversion and what is called color reconstruction, or which are even applied before in the native camera space).<<
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24701&st=29]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....pic=24701&st=29[/url]
http://21stcenturyshoebox.com/essays/scene...edworkflow.html
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....pic=24087&st=20

>> In my wish list there would be a RAW developer that just develops the RAW file in a totally neutral way, and ONLY applies those very few features that are strictly best applied over undemosaiced data (noise reduction, CA maybe,...) producing a n-bit high quality output that would go straight into Photoshop (or any other edition tool).
To constantly be comparing software tools makes us become eternally insatisfied software slaves.<<
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Peter

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Schewe

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 06:13:05 pm »

So...this is exactly why it really sucks to cross-post a thread in multiple threads...I have no idea where the above reference is coming from and it's not even in the base level thread–which was put into the Lightroom sub-forum HERE.

So, now this whole thing is screwed up...is that what ya wanted NikosR?
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Peter_DL

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 06:33:31 pm »

Quote
...I have no idea where the above reference is coming from and it's not even in the base level thread–which was put into the Lightroom sub-forum HERE. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
???
reread

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Schewe

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 08:43:58 pm »

Quote
???
reread

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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No, YOU reread...

You posted a quote from a totally different thread (that was mildly related) into THIS thread which points to yet another thread in the Lightroom sub-forum...so now there are three threads intertwined because the OP cross-posted that he had posted a thread in the Lightroom sub-forum...and he cross=posted the announcement of the original thread multiple times.

Which, if you think about it is the EXACT reason ya don't want to be doing that...
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Peter_DL

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 12:12:27 am »

Quote
No, YOU reread...

You posted a quote from a totally different thread (that was mildly related) into THIS thread which points to yet another thread in the Lightroom sub-forum...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
???

Referring to my post #3 of this thread:

The quote & link in the framed quote section lead exactly to the threadopener’s post in the Lightroom forum which he referenced with post #1 here.

The quotes & links offered in my response lead to recent discussions which strived this subject enough to be of potential interest for the threadopener.

For me, all quotes & links precisely work as they should to follow the content,
if one is interested to do so at all.

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bernie west

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 01:39:17 am »

Quote
???

Referring to my post #3 of this thread:

The quote & link in the framed quote section lead exactly to the threadopener’s post in the Lightroom forum which he referenced with post #1 here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In addition to the cross-posting mess you are adding to, you are quoting people without acknowledging them or even explaining the context in which you are quoting them.  The moderators should delete this entire entangled mess, and we can start again with a SINGLE thread.
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Peter_DL

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 01:55:47 am »

Quote
In addition to the cross-posting mess you are adding to, you are quoting people without acknowledging them or even explaining the context in which you are quoting them.  The moderators should delete this entire entangled mess, and we can start again with a SINGLE thread.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The only guy quoted in my response #3 was GLuijk and he was properly informed in the same quoted thread.

The only mess, if there is one at all, is caused by the expected noise from the known supects and by a lack of reading skills.

Peter

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 02:05:37 am by DPL »
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bernie west

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 02:32:33 am »

Quote
The only guy quoted in my response #3 was GLuijk and he was properly informed in the same quoted thread.

The only mess, if there is one at all, is caused by the expected noise from the known supects and by a lack of reading skills.

Peter

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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192817\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The problem is that you are not letting US know that it was Guillermo's quote, and you are not giving some context to the quote.  What is the use of directly transposing someones words to another thread without at least some discussion about why you are doing it?

As for the mess, it would be bad enough if it was JUST three different threads.  But now we have cross-referencing going on in all the threads, and no idea which is the authorative thread to follow.  I hope this thread gets the chop!
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Peter_DL

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 03:37:28 am »

Quote
The problem is that you are not letting US know that it was Guillermo's quote, and you are not giving some context to the quote.  What is the use of directly transposing someones words to another thread without at least some discussion about why you are doing it?

As for the mess, it would be bad enough if it was JUST three different threads.  But now we have cross-referencing going on in all the threads, and no idea which is the authorative thread to follow.  I hope this thread gets the chop!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Problem is that the subject of this thread is interdisciplinary. Well, that’s how it is with many aspects of digital imaging. And I assume that’s why the threadopener placed or linked his contribution in different sub-forums. Actually I do not have a problem with this, particularly considering that this forum likes to divide itself in more and more sub-forums.

As for the convention of providing a quote. Well, we can discuss about this. Placing the text in special marks (>><<) plus providing the link, was certainly a brief way to do so. But again, if one is willing to follow the link, it provides the original context, gives the author and in this case the confirmation that GLuijk was properly informed that his words were “used” here.

Referring to the content, I’d still see it as an excellent fit.

Raw converter like to add more and more functions, thus to mimic Photoshop. While every of such stepwise additions is greatly praised, and while we are taught to render the print (perhaps to feel like Ansel Adams), most added tools have essentially not a lot to do with Raw conversion in the sense of “color reconstruction”.

This whole approach is certainly fine for a stand-alone application such as Lightroom. However, with ACR there would be (or have been) the chance for a smarter integration of both worlds i.e. Raw conversion and Photoshop. Leaving the “creative processing” to Photoshop, rather than trying to add and (re)invent tool by tool for ACR.

In other words, let the Raw converter (ACR) do what it needs to do, and better add Clarity or Vibrance to Photoshop. Curves, Saturation, etc. are already there if I remember correctly.

If the native ‘raw’ functions in a converter were properly communicated and separated, as claimed by the threadopener, it might be easier to follow such pathway - at least as an alternative option. Problem is, it doesn’t seem to fit very well in the “rendering the print” philosophy (perhaps to feel like Ansel Adams) which I consider to be more a marketing approach.

IMO.
& Cheers!

Peter

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 05:30:03 am by DPL »
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digitaldog

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Separating 'raw' functions in a raw converter
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2008, 09:53:27 am »

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Raw converter like to add more and more functions, thus to mimic Photoshop.

The problem here (besides the huge mess made to the forums with the cross posting) is you don't seem to understand the difference between rendering and pixel editing. Its like suggesting that because a bike and a motorcycle have two wheels, bike manufacturers are trying to make newer mountain bikes more like motorcycles. Two totally different mode's of transportation.

You can't really make a Raw converter mimic a pixel editor because one is a metadata editor and one is a pixel editor. You may think that Brightness and Contrast sliders found in Photoshop and ACR are doing the same thing because they both move left to right and affect something called brightness and contrast. That be a huge, uneducated stretch once you understand the fundamental differences between linear encoded Raw data and the process or rendering versus gamma corrected, pixel fixing (editing) that happens after the initial and critical rendering process.

And I think you'll see in the future, Photoshop is trying more to mimic a Raw converter. But that's not a conversation we can have at this time.
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