Help Me Choose a MF Camera for Digital!

[Juanito]

Hi Everyone. I've made my living photographing people for the past 15 plus years. (Here's  my blog.) I used to shoot medium format on a Mamiya 6x7 for years until I switched to small format digital about six years ago. Now, I'm thinking of moving back to medium format so... now I need a new set up.

I've been looking at the various backs and cameras and I'm liking the Phase One H21+ for it's speed and price. (I don't need/want more megapixels. I'll take speed and ease of use over more megapixels.) For cameras, I've ruled out the Mamiya 645 since the shutter sync is too slow. I shoot outdoors in full sun with strobes quite a bit so I need the faster sync speed. (That's part of my motivation for moving back to MF.)

I tried the H2 and wasn't overly impressed. It's a heck of a lot of money for a lot of plastic. Instead, I'm wondering what alternatives are out there. I see a lot of high-end shooters using an RZ system (Annie Leibovitz for one) and they're pretty cheap these days. On the other hand, I saw on the Phase One web site that the backs will work with the older Hassie V system. But I'm not seeing or hearing much about anyone actually shooting with the the setup. Does anyone have experience with either system?

I know that the new H3 system looks pretty cool, but I'm not willing to drop $33k on it. Any advice or suggestions that folks can offer are appreciated! Thanks in advance.

John

[vandevanterSH]

Hi Everyone. I've made my living photographing people for the past 15 plus years. (Here's  my blog.) I used to shoot medium format on a Mamiya 6x7 for years until I switched to small format digital about six years ago. Now, I'm thinking of moving back to medium format so... now I need a new set up.

I've been looking at the various backs and cameras and I'm liking the Phase One H21+ for it's speed and price. (I don't need/want more megapixels. I'll take speed and ease of use over more megapixels.) For cameras, I've ruled out the Mamiya 645 since the shutter sync is too slow. I shoot outdoors in full sun with strobes quite a bit so I need the faster sync speed. (That's part of my motivation for moving back to MF.)

I tried the H2 and wasn't overly impressed. It's a heck of a lot of money for a lot of plastic. Instead, I'm wondering what alternatives are out there. I see a lot of high-end shooters using an RZ system (Annie Leibovitz for one) and they're pretty cheap these days. On the other hand, I saw on the Phase One web site that the backs will work with the older Hassie V system. But I'm not seeing or hearing much about anyone actually shooting with the the setup. Does anyone have experience with either system?

I know that the new H3 system looks pretty cool, but I'm not willing to drop $33k on it. Any advice or suggestions that folks can offer are appreciated! Thanks in advance.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192123\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Probably the best "deal" in MF digital is the Hasselblad 503CWD.  Complete kit with 80mm for 13k.  The CFV back is 16.6 MP square format...may not be fast enough for you..35 exposures/min.  On the up side is the volume of good quality used "V" system Zeiss lenses and other accessories.  The "V" series is now out of production and what is in dealers stock is it.

The downside for the Phase One on a V system would be the external cable needed and the reduction of usuable MPs because of the square format.  If the H21+ has 18.5(?) MP, it would be a ~13.5 MP back with the 503.

[Juanito]

Probably the best "deal" in MF digital is the Hasselblad 503CWD.  Complete kit with 80mm for 13k.  The CFV back is 16.6 MP square format...may not be fast enough for you..35 exposures/min.  On the up side is the volume of good quality used "V" system Zeiss lenses and other accessories.  The "V" series is now out of production and what is in dealers stock is it.

The downside for the Phase One on a V system would be the external cable needed and the reduction of usuable MPs because of the square format.  If the H21+ has 18.5(?) MP, it would be a ~13.5 MP back with the 503.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192124\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the response! I looked at the Hassie system and you're right, it's not fast enough. I'm also not interested in a square format.

I didn't realize that the V system cropped a DB to square. I thought that since the hassie V system is 6x6cm, it should be able to handle a 6x4.5 digital sensor (or at least 1.3 crop of that in the case of the P21).

John

[Dustbak]

It doesn't crop to a square. With the P21 you get the full 18MP in a 4:3 rectangle. If you wish you could always crop it to a square. The back has the dimensions 43x32 (or about) which fits easily into the 6x6 format.

Other options might be the A17 which is very much comparable to the P21.

[yaya]

Probably the best "deal" in MF digital is the Hasselblad 503CWD.  Complete kit with 80mm for 13k.  The CFV back is 16.6 MP square format...may not be fast enough for you..35 exposures/min.  On the up side is the volume of good quality used "V" system Zeiss lenses and other accessories.  The "V" series is now out of production and what is in dealers stock is it.

The downside for the Phase One on a V system would be the external cable needed and the reduction of usuable MPs because of the square format.  If the H21+ has 18.5(?) MP, it would be a ~13.5 MP back with the 503.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192124\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The 503CW is still in production AFAIK and since it covers 56X56mm any current digital back will be able to use ALL of its pixels (unless you want to shoot square and crop it).

Juanito if you still have your 6X7 kit then I would start with that but I would go with one of the larger sensors (48X36 or 49X37) to get a better lens coverage.

See if you can get/afford a back with a rotating adapter, making the RZ (or RB) experience closer to what you're already familiar with.

Good luck

Yair

[yaya]

Rolleiflex 6008AF would be the perfect system for you. It takes Phase backs,

errr...they don't rotate on it....

[Graham Mitchell]

As well as the Rollei 6008AF already suggested you could look at the Sinar Hy6. It doesn't take Phase One backs but it will take backs from Sinar and Leaf and I doubt you'll find those backs harder to operate than the Phase. These two systems and the Hass H are the only current leaf shutter systems.

[eronald]

errr...they don't rotate on it....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't wanna say this too loudly, but if you want a supported integrated system
1 Hasselblad H3 series
2.Sinar Hy6
3 Leaf AFi
4 Phase One/Mamiya
5 Mamiya ZD

Order is random.

There are some very nice H system refurbs, Phase  refurbs etc going round; I would avoid back/body mix and match for a new buy, this era is going to finish, even though the results are first class with Contax or Hasselblad V.

Edmund

[Juanito]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Rotation is going to be an issue if the camera doesn't have a grip and prism finder. (Does V Hassie have such a grip?)

So I'm a little confused. Someone said that there's a crop with the Hassie V, but that's incorrect? Then there's no rotating with the Rollei - I looked into it a little but couldn't find that much info. It looks awesome, but it's pricey. How do you shoot verticals?

It's all so confusing so now I'm looking at maybe an H2 or even H1. Anything to look for/watch out for in those bodies?

Finally, I do like the idea of the Mamiya RZ - except for the bulk. I initially was liking the idea of a 645 body that was easy to use. It seems like it's hard to get everything without spending $33k for the latest and greatest.

John

[vandevanterSH]

"The 503CW is still in production AFAIK and since it covers 56X56mm any current digital back will be able to use ALL of its pixels (unless you want to shoot square and crop it)."

My error..the 503CWD Anniversary is out of production..The 503CW is still made..for how much longer???

[condit79]

even if you spend 33k you´re not going to get everything, this is medium format digital.  For what you shoot, all the posed work, a MF system would be pretty fantastic.  But the 35mm still would have it´s place for reportage.  Compared to 35mm AF, the H1-h2 will frustrate you at first (not because it´s not accurate, just quirky) but once you use the camera a bit you´ll be totally fine.  Sure, some say you should only go with what´s still being made, but honestly the camera will probably outlast your back by a longshot.  It really depends on how many lenses you plan on purchasing for your medium format kit-if you end up selling them at some point...

[Graham Mitchell]

Then there's no rotating with the Rollei - I looked into it a little but couldn't find that much info. It looks awesome, but it's pricey. How do you shoot verticals?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well the Phase One backs for this camera are the only ones I know of that don't rotate. The Sinar back can be rotated in a second. The Rollei P20 uses a square format , so rotation isn't an issue. 645 film can be rotated on the Rollei too.

However, there is a 90 degree VF available, and a side grip, so it would not be too much trouble to turn the camera.

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Hi Everyone. I've made my living photographing people for the past 15 plus years. (Here's  my blog.) I used to shoot medium format on a Mamiya 6x7 for years until I switched to small format digital about six years ago. Now, I'm thinking of moving back to medium format so... now I need a new set up.

I've been looking at the various backs and cameras and I'm liking the Phase One H21+ for it's speed and price. (I don't need/want more megapixels. I'll take speed and ease of use over more megapixels.) For cameras, I've ruled out the Mamiya 645 since the shutter sync is too slow. I shoot outdoors in full sun with strobes quite a bit so I need the faster sync speed. (That's part of my motivation for moving back to MF.)

I tried the H2 and wasn't overly impressed. It's a heck of a lot of money for a lot of plastic. Instead, I'm wondering what alternatives are out there. I see a lot of high-end shooters using an RZ system (Annie Leibovitz for one) and they're pretty cheap these days. On the other hand, I saw on the Phase One web site that the backs will work with the older Hassie V system. But I'm not seeing or hearing much about anyone actually shooting with the the setup. Does anyone have experience with either system?

I know that the new H3 system looks pretty cool, but I'm not willing to drop $33k on it. Any advice or suggestions that folks can offer are appreciated! Thanks in advance.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192123\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It might be worth waiting another couple of months for the Mamiya AFD III which will be ready for leaf shutter lenses, including H'blad.
Bill

[mcfoto]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Rotation is going to be an issue if the camera doesn't have a grip and prism finder. (Does V Hassie have such a grip?)

So I'm a little confused. Someone said that there's a crop with the Hassie V, but that's incorrect? Then there's no rotating with the Rollei - I looked into it a little but couldn't find that much info. It looks awesome, but it's pricey. How do you shoot verticals?

It's all so confusing so now I'm looking at maybe an H2 or even H1. Anything to look for/watch out for in those bodies?

Finally, I do like the idea of the Mamiya RZ - except for the bulk. I initially was liking the idea of a 645 body that was easy to use. It seems like it's hard to get everything without spending $33k for the latest and greatest.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
Look at eBay for used digital backs. A friend of mine just bought an Aptus 22 for his Mamaya AFD mount for $9900.00 USD 2 days ago. That is a great buy, plus the Aptus 22 has a frame rate of 1.2 f/s. That back will also fit on a Mamiya RZ.
Denis

[clawery]

Hi
Look at eBay for used digital backs. A friend of mine just bought an Aptus 22 for his Mamaya AFD mount for $9900.00 USD 2 days ago. That is a great buy, plus the Aptus 22 has a frame rate of 1.2 f/s. That back will also fit on a Mamiya RZ.
Denis
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't forget that dealers usually have several used or demo backs in stock. We also may know of other photographers that are that are selling their gear on their own. Just a thought...

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]

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[Graham Mitchell]

It might be worth waiting another couple of months for the Mamiya AFD III which will be ready for leaf shutter lenses, including H'blad.
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are dreaming if you think new leaf shutter lenses will be on the shelves any time soon. So far it's nothing but a rumour. These things take time (i.e. years).

[eronald]

You are dreaming if you think new leaf shutter lenses will be on the shelves any time soon. So far it's nothing but a rumour. These things take time (i.e. years).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And I doubt the new camera will drive the mechanically-cocked Blad lenses. Probably only new Mamiya lenses.

Edmund

[samuel_js]

You are dreaming if you think new leaf shutter lenses will be on the shelves any time soon. So far it's nothing but a rumour. These things take time (i.e. years).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree. I'd say 1-2 years from now. Hope I'm wrong.

[eronald]

I agree. I'd say 1-2 years from now. Hope I'm wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course if we could get a Thierry-like figure from Mamiya here to keep people waiting, time would pass faster

Edmund

[amsp]

I agree. I'd say 1-2 years from now. Hope I'm wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The official word from PhaseOne is 2008. My guess is Photokina. The release of leaf-shutter lenses is something that has been planned since they started on the camera over a year ago, so it's fully feasible. I also don't think it's based on a completely new design, maybe just a mount change and modification of the schneider lenses.