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Jay_Z

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Getting started with Lightroom, some basics
« on: April 15, 2008, 11:05:21 am »

Ok, forgive me - just starting with Lightroom (and anxious to get going!). I have a new book but I have questions on some other basics.  Or if you can direct me to some good getting started info, that would be great too!

First of all, I have a Canon camera - I shoot my pics in Raw + jpg. After shooting my first raw shots, I have them on my laptop - they stay here before during the work in process (sort, process, and pick what I want to post on my site). Then I move all of them to a backup drive - which is also backed up on another drive.

Your suggestions - what is my first step? Do I import these into Lightroom (currently on my laptop drive)? Do I want to want to import all my pics (from library/folders on external drive) or just my 'need to work with' on laptop drive?  How do you work with the LR catalogs - just one for all of your images or do you set up new catalogs for different 'shoots', etc?

As I start to work with these - will I ultimately save these in .raw since they are in .cr2 format? Is it best to convert all of them?

Once they are imported and I work with them and ultimately move them over to my external drive, will the location have any effect on this - i.e. since they were imported?

Functionality wise, I am ready to start using this - it's the initial stuff regarding my workflow that I am curious about!

Do you find this as a complement or replacement to Adobe PSE? Maybe I am used to 'opening a file' or doing the catalog in Adobe PSE that is throwing me off as I convert to a new process! Although, I didn't really use it for organization, just minor PP.

Thank you much for your response...
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digitaldog

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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2008, 12:51:54 pm »

A lot of what you ask are based on personal preferences in your workflow. For example, I no longer shoot Raw+JPEG because I find I can produce a set of JEPGs faster in LR and they match the Raw rendering I wish, where using the exiting camera JPEGs, its a pain to try to get the two to match. Plus, I have more room on the card, easier filing in LR.

What I do is copy all the images from a card to a folder on a drive I plan to use for storing all images (I'm currently using a 750 gig Raid drive). NOTHING is on that drive but images and the LR catalogs (that makes it easy for me to clone all this to another driver as a back up or onto a portable drive to take on the road).

I usually make a folder that has a name that represents the images. I copy the images to that folder from the finder. I suggest this because newer users often say "I don't know where my images are in LR" but if you manually place the images onto a location this way, well you know where you put em right?

Then in Lightroom, I import all the images and of course, I know where to navigate to for these images since I just put them in the folder. I can use the "Import from current location" option, have metadata added at the same time etc. At this time, I convert all the images to DNG because I don't want an sidecar files floating around.

Because I've made a folder with a descriptive name (say "Dogs"), I can use the custom naming template and utilize the token called "Folder Name" such that all the images will now be named based on that folder. Very cool. IF I move the images to another folder, and this is important, I'll do this from WITHIN Lightroom, once I rename them, they no longer have a name based on the wrong folders which is a plus. I usually add the folder name + date (year, month, day) and then some trailing values (001, 002). LR will do this for you.

Now I'll go through the images in Loupe mode and simply type either a P or an X (P is pick, that's a winner for sure, X is a reject, I'm going to trash the file for sure). Everything else is not rated, I'm not sure its great and I'm sure I don't want to lose it. Then I'll delete all the X images, maybe rename if I'm anal and want the number sequence to be prefect but that's not really necessary. Now we could do something like make star ratings (I have a four and five store rating for Picks making two levels of such images). I use 0-3 for the unrated images (zero means, its pretty close to being reject while 3 means, it might actually make it into the pick+4 rating). Anyway, the idea here is to simply give the images a quality rating. I use color labels for keeping track of progress of the images as they get worked on. IOW, colors can and will change as the images progress. For example, I have a color for images that need to be printed. I have a color for images that have made a round trip to Lightroom and back. I have a color for legacy images that were from the old days when I wasn't using LR but want them in the database.

That's basically how I get the images into LR before I even worry about quick develop or develop. But that's just one of a million ways to do this, in the end, you just find a system that works well for you.

Note that you CAN make a folder from within Import and move the images into them all from within LR, I only recommend you do this externally until you're comfortable with where all this stuff lives on the drive. Once you do have images inside LR< its really important not to move them outside LR or it will not know where they've gone (not a huge problem, you can always update the folders from within LR but again, as you become more comfortable with the product does this seem more intuitive). If you move images within LR, make new folders there etc, it will always know what you did and keep track of the images.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2008, 12:55:50 pm »

Oh, suppose you have a folder called "dogs" and you come back with another 100 images. No sweat. Just add em to the same folder as you did above. You can do an Import and LR is smart AND quick and will only import images that were not there to begin with. So you don't have to make a new folder every time. I have a folder called dogs (really I do) that has a few years of dog shots and I update that all the time. I have a folder called "Santa Fe" and again, I just push new images that fall roughly into that specific all the time, tell LR to import the entire folder and its real fast at only showing you the newer images it wants to import.
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Jay_Z

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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 08:49:12 pm »

Thanks digitaldog - good info.  Appropriate that you have a folder for dogs, digitaldog

This is good info!

So, in working with the files in Lightroom, would it be normal to keep them in the Canon Raw (or other ... i.e. Nikon) format?  Or do most convert this to DNG as a part of the edit process.

As a part of my workflow, it seems like I would put these on my laptop, discard any unnecessary - then move to external (main drive) where I will then import to Lightroom.

At that point how do you use catalogs, collections, etc?  Based on this workflow, will I ultimately have all of my images on that external drive imported to Lightroom?

Any other suggestions?  As I mentioned, some of these basics haven't been covered in the books I saw - but working with them in Lightroom is well covered!  Trying to get the basics covered before I step into the process.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 08:57:28 pm »

Quote
So, in working with the files in Lightroom, would it be normal to keep them in the Canon Raw (or other ... i.e. Nikon) format?  Or do most convert this to DNG as a part of the edit process.

I convert to DNG as soon as possible (I wish I could do this while importing from current location, that's not an option). But that's just my preference.

Quote
At that point how do you use catalogs, collections, etc?

There might be images spread all over the various folders that I want to view in one location, hence, collections. For example, I keep a collection of every web gallery I make. Or, maybe I want to keep a group, spread all over various folders that I printed. Collection. Or I want to find ALL 5 star picks but not four star picks: Collection.

If you've used iTunes, you'll understand collections (playlists).
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Pelao

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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2008, 08:58:19 am »

Quote
I convert to DNG as soon as possible (I wish I could do this while importing from current location, that's not an option). But that's just my preference.

I also convert to DNG, and agree it would be nice to be able to import and convert from current location. It's simple enough to convert under the 'Library' menu, but still, this would be even simpler.
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keithrsmith

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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2008, 09:09:23 am »

There is one problem with converting to DNG, in that when you backup ( I use Synctoy to maintain a copy) if you have made any development changes, they get written to the DNG and hence the whole file has to be backed up.  If you use sidecar files, only the XMP file changes and needs to be copied.

BTW, I have found what appears to be a bug in LR.  I created a PSD file in a folder, and then tried a synchronize.  LR refused to see the file.   Moved to PSD to another folder, and Sync saw it OK and LR allowed me to move it back to where I wanted it.  Very odd

Keith
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digitaldog

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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2008, 09:26:27 am »

Quote
I also convert to DNG, and agree it would be nice to be able to import and convert from current location. It's simple enough to convert under the 'Library' menu, but still, this would be even simpler.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've requested this since day one. Couldn't hurt to ask as well on the Adobe LR forums.

The other thing I still don't get (no one on the team has answered me) is why the Folder Name token doesn't work on Import. You can't even see this as an option when you go into the Custom dialog (its missing here but present in the standard Name template dialog). You show LR what folder you are aiming for, it should know the name now, but for some reason, it doesn't. So I have to modify my name template used elsewhere by manually typing in the folder name I'm pointing to. Haven’t figured out why that's missing.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2008, 09:29:10 am »

Quote
There is one problem with converting to DNG, in that when you backup ( I use Synctoy to maintain a copy) if you have made any development changes, they get written to the DNG and hence the whole file has to be backed up.  If you use sidecar files, only the XMP file changes and needs to be copied.

That's indeed true but I'd rather have the backup data (Raw and DNG) in one piece so the speed hit for me is worthwhile. If I lost the XMP (or it got corrupted), I'd be pissed. But yes, that makes sense to why it takes so long to back up. I usually set my backups to happen in the middle of the night when its sleepy time.
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john beardsworth

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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2008, 11:01:28 am »

Quote
There is one problem with converting to DNG, in that when you backup ( I use Synctoy to maintain a copy) if you have made any development changes, they get written to the DNG and hence the whole file has to be backed up.  If you use sidecar files, only the XMP file changes and needs to be copied.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's more a shortfall of your backup process. Obviously you don't want to keep backing up the image data, so backup the DNG upon creation, and then safeguard any data changes by routinely backing up the database. In any case, the xmp sidecar or updated DNGs don't contain all the Lightroom metadata anyway (eg history, stacks, collections).

John
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digitaldog

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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 11:41:03 am »

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In any case, the xmp sidecar or updated DNGs don't contain all the Lightroom metadata anyway (eg history, stacks, collections).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I often wish it did. For example, I have two catalogs now; 1.4 and 2.0b. I fully believe that when 2.0 ships, it will honor and update those items, but for now, its a drag not to see this due to the newer database. I had to first make a keyword of my various collections, import that into 2.0b then rebuild all the collections. So having the option of storing all this useful info in the DNG would be helpful in some cases.

That said, using Keywords to store stuff that's "database independent" might be something I continue to do.
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keithrsmith

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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 02:58:36 am »

Quote
That's more a shortfall of your backup process. Obviously you don't want to keep backing up the image data, so backup the DNG upon creation, and then safeguard any data changes by routinely backing up the database. In any case, the xmp sidecar or updated DNGs don't contain all the Lightroom metadata anyway (eg history, stacks, collections).

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If I understand things correctly however, that would assume that you never use Bridge / ACR to process images.  Not sure that is an option at the moment as LR does not give access to all PS facilities ( opening multiple images onto layers etc.)  LR2 seems to be addressing this.

Keith
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john beardsworth

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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 06:10:31 am »

Quote
If I understand things correctly however, that would assume that you never use Bridge / ACR to process images.  Not sure that is an option at the moment as LR does not give access to all PS facilities ( opening multiple images onto layers etc.)  LR2 seems to be addressing this.

Keith
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a correct assumption, but I was focussing on the hole in the backup comment - backup is not a reason to avoid DNG. If the issue is making LR adjustments available elsewhere, and you are using the Bridge scripts to do certain things in Photoshop, that is also becoming easier with LR2 but right now you're going to need xmp sidecars or save adjustments into the DNG.

John
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seanmcfoto

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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2008, 11:28:32 pm »

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The other thing I still don't get (no one on the team has answered me) is why the Folder Name token doesn't work on Import.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know Andrew, I've wondered this on more than several occasions myself. It would suit my Import naming down to the ground. Currently I use Custom Name-DDMMYY-001, where Custom Name is the same as my Folder Name..
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BruceHouston

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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2008, 12:30:41 am »

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I convert to DNG as soon as possible (I wish I could do this while importing from current location, that's not an option). But that's just my preference.
There might be images spread all over the various folders that I want to view in one location, hence, collections. For example, I keep a collection of every web gallery I make. Or, maybe I want to keep a group, spread all over various folders that I printed. Collection. Or I want to find ALL 5 star picks but not four star picks: Collection.

If you've used iTunes, you'll understand collections (playlists).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189828\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew (or the group):

Is the DNG format sufficiently broad to insure that no information whatsoever is lost when converting from .CR2 (or any other raw format, for that matter) to .dng?  Suppose, for example, that Canon were to introduce a .CR3 format that includes sensor data that the current DNG format is incapable of encoding.  In such case the DNG spec would need to be updated before .CR3 files could be converted to .dng's, right?  Just curious as to potential consequences down the road with standardizing all files to DNG, as this aspect of Andrew's workflow seems like a good idea and I might start doing this myself.

Thanks,
Bruce
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Schewe

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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2008, 01:07:16 am »

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Is the DNG format sufficiently broad to insure that no information whatsoever is lost when converting from .CR2 (or any other raw format, for that matter) to .dng?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


With the exception of a very few formats (such as the Foveon format which has data that can not be transfered) all NEF, CR2, ORF, etc. formats have all the data–even the data that DNG can't understand–moved from the proprietary raw file to the processed DNG file, yes.

Quote
Suppose, for example, that Canon were to introduce a .CR3 format that includes sensor data that the current DNG format is incapable of encoding. In such case the DNG spec would need to be updated before .CR3 files could be converted to .dng's, right?

Yes, just as Camera Raw or Lightroom (or even the camera company's own software) would need to be updated...but, so what? So far, nothing the camera companies have come up with have provided any problems other than a short term wait for compatibility. An example is Canon's sRAW file format...the standard CR2 was included even before the camera that produced them shipped but it took a rev for Camera Raw, Lightroom and DNG to decode them, but the team did it in a pretty quick turn around.

At this point, the only real downside to DNG is the inability to process the DNG converted raw file in the camera company's software–which could be solved very easily if the camera companies supported reading DNGs from raw files from their own camera.

On the other hand, if you don't plan on using the proprietary software, it's really not an issue.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2008, 10:05:39 am »

Quote
Andrew (or the group):

Is the DNG format sufficiently broad to insure that no information whatsoever is lost when converting from .CR2 (or any other raw format, for that matter) to .dng?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What can be "lost" is proprietary tags. But is questionable what use they'd be to anyone but those who write the tags and make me proprietary.
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BruceHouston

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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2008, 01:44:27 am »

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With the exception of a very few formats (such as the Foveon format which has data that can not be transfered) all NEF, CR2, ORF, etc. formats have all the data–even the data that DNG can't understand–moved from the proprietary raw file to the processed DNG file, yes.
Yes, just as Camera Raw or Lightroom (or even the camera company's own software) would need to be updated...but, so what? So far, nothing the camera companies have come up with have provided any problems other than a short term wait for compatibility. An example is Canon's sRAW file format...the standard CR2 was included even before the camera that produced them shipped but it took a rev for Camera Raw, Lightroom and DNG to decode them, but the team did it in a pretty quick turn around.

At this point, the only real downside to DNG is the inability to process the DNG converted raw file in the camera company's software–which could be solved very easily if the camera companies supported reading DNGs from raw files from their own camera.

On the other hand, if you don't plan on using the proprietary software, it's really not an issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190554\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Excellent; thanks Jeff and Andrew.  I will being archiving in DNG.

Bruce
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