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Author Topic: MF vs 1Ds3  (Read 144290 times)

Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #240 on: May 05, 2008, 01:19:15 am »

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No, the reason this thread is so long is because you keep adding to it! 40 posts from you so far in this thread alone...

Another vote here for deleting this thread.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't counted them, but 40 seems an exaggeration. What is clear is that there have been over 18,000 views of this thread, so it is reasonable to presume that there's considerable interest is a real and competently carried out comparison; something we've been denied so far.
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #241 on: May 05, 2008, 01:22:30 am »

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ray,  you win, you win.
can you go away now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear me! It's not about winning. It's about getting accurate information. Don't you realise that? Winning is for the Olympics in Beijing this year.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #242 on: May 05, 2008, 01:30:06 am »

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I haven't counted them, but 40 seems an exaggeration.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now it's 42. Click on the number of posts in the main forum view and you will see how many posts have been posted by each member. You are clearly in the lead
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 01:31:16 am by foto-z »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #243 on: May 05, 2008, 02:08:00 am »

Ray,

You are so determined in getting this comparison and so adamant in the way it should be done. Why don't you do it yourself instead of trying to press others in doing it for you?

Already several dealers/company representatives have offered to help you get the equipment.

If you spend halve the energy you spend in filling this thread you would have already had the comparison you are so insisting upon.

At least that would be a comparison exactly like you want it. No other one probably can come close to that.
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #244 on: May 05, 2008, 04:11:39 am »

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Ray,

You are so determined in getting this comparison and so adamant in the way it should be done. Why don't you do it yourself instead of trying to press others in doing it for you?

Already several dealers/company representatives have offered to help you get the equipment.

If you spend halve the energy you spend in filling this thread you would have already had the comparison you are so insisting upon.

At least that would be a comparison exactly like you want it. No other one probably can come close to that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But I'm not the one one making the outrageous and possibly misleading claims. When I make claims that camera A or lens A is better than camera B or lens B, I back up such claims with carefuly conducted comparison images, displayed at maximum quality jpeg compression, so everyone is clear what I'm talking about and in what respect I believe camera/lens A is better and to what degree and significance.

You can't expect me to run around substantiating or disproving every ill-founded assertion that appears on LL.
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eronald

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« Reply #245 on: May 05, 2008, 04:39:01 am »

I concur. Ray seems to have enough knowledge of photography to do such a comparison, he has thought about it, so he should do it and come back here with his results. Sell it to Shutterbug or some magazine.

We need a Canon vs. MF shootout anyway. It's the way things are done nowadays.I'd do it, but I'm not a good enough photographer for the results to be meaningful.

Edmund


Quote
Ray,

You are so determined in getting this comparison and so adamant in the way it should be done. Why don't you do it yourself instead of trying to press others in doing it for you?

Already several dealers/company representatives have offered to help you get the equipment.

If you spend halve the energy you spend in filling this thread you would have already had the comparison you are so insisting upon.

At least that would be a comparison exactly like you want it. No other one probably can come close to that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 04:40:04 am by eronald »
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Frank Doorhof

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #246 on: May 05, 2008, 04:46:50 am »

A good photographer should also know the difference sensor size makes  

The reason that for film I just bought a RZ67 Pro II, even bigger that 6x4.5

I will be using also digital with it ofcourse, but the main reason is to shoot larger negative for film.

The sensor size is KEY in this whole discussion as I pointed out many times.
As long as there is a difference you can't compare both systems.
It's as simple as that.

It's like comparing a tractor with a ferrari.
Put the tractor on the highway and it will drive but not as fast as the ferrari.
Put the ferrari on rough terrain and it will get stuck.

Horses for courses.
And if you know what to do with both systems they are BOTH unbeatable in their specialism.
That's why ALOT of pro photographers use both and don't do this kind of comparisions, it's no use as long as both systems are physically different.

This is the MF forum so this discussion is already been too long in different threads and keeps repeating itself, understand the fundamentals off photography and you know that both systems can't be compared.

Look at the numbers and pixelcount the can, but that's not photography.

Photography is getting a feel/look/photo not about MP's
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ynp

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #247 on: May 05, 2008, 04:52:33 am »

del
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 04:34:06 am by ynp »
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woof75

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #248 on: May 05, 2008, 09:02:26 am »

O.K Ray, lets do it, no subjective "artistic" opinions, lets do a proper objective scientific test comparing a P21 to a 1ds mark 3.
Most importantly lets agree on a sound methodology, after a few botched attempts to show the difference in examples which have quite rightly, been questioned because of variations in USM settings, contrast etc.
Here's what I propose to be a scientifically valid methodology (please correct me if I'm wrong)

1st lets test the most basic parameter:

SHARPNESS:

To do this we must realize that we are not testing the sharpness of the lens (which lens would you choose for each device, which Fstop would you use and what focal length) we are testing the sharpness of the capture device. Oh hang on, you can't do that can you? canon lenses doesn't fit on a mamiya.

Right, so at the first basic hurdle we have failed. Next step, lets realize it's doomed to failure as an objective test before we start. No problem, lets just shoot the standard lens on each camera, shoot a subject that is exactly the same for each camera at the same f stop. We will process the files with exactly the same software to get fair results. whats that? Different files need different software to get the best results. O.k. we'll use our preferred software for each camera. We'd better standardise the amount of USM we put on though eh? Whats that, different devices need different amounts of it, s how much shall we use? Hmm, I think we've failed again.

And that is just the start of testing the most basic parameter. What I'm getting at Ray is that it really isn't possible to give you what you want, you want an objective scientific A vs B test which will give us the answers. You know what, I do to, it would make our lives so much easier but that life. It means that unfortunately you have to figure it out through your own experience. Another way you can do it, as I have done in the past, is to figure out who seems to know what they are talking about, see what they say, see what they use and why they say they use it and take that as a guide, use the equipment yourself for a while and then you will know and understand it and it's limitations and qualities and then, you can make your own mind up from a reasoned and understanding place.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #249 on: May 05, 2008, 09:16:19 am »

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But I'm not the one one making the outrageous and possibly misleading claims.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which claims are misleading and outrageous? Can you prove it?
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #250 on: May 05, 2008, 09:59:33 am »

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Which claims are misleading and outrageous? Can you prove it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193554\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which claims? The ones I quoted at the top of this page from the blog that Edmund provided a link to, which is presumably the subject of this thread.

Of course I can't prove anything. I own neither a 1Ds3 nor a DB of any description.
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woof75

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« Reply #251 on: May 05, 2008, 10:10:32 am »

Do you understand what I am saying in my post Ray?
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juicy

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #252 on: May 05, 2008, 10:11:55 am »

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O.K Ray, lets do it, no subjective "artistic" opinions, lets do a proper objective scientific test comparing a P21 to a 1ds mark 3.
Most importantly lets agree on a sound methodology, after a few botched attempts to show the difference in examples which have quite rightly, been questioned because of variations in USM settings, contrast etc.
Here's what I propose to be a scientifically valid methodology (please correct me if I'm wrong)

1st lets test the most basic parameter:

SHARPNESS:

To do this we must realize that we are not testing the sharpness of the lens (which lens would you choose for each device, which Fstop would you use and what focal length) we are testing the sharpness of the capture device. Oh hang on, you can't do that can you? canon lenses doesn't fit on a mamiya.

Right, so at the first basic hurdle we have failed. Next step, lets realize it's doomed to failure as an objective test before we start. No problem, lets just shoot the standard lens on each camera, shoot a subject that is exactly the same for each camera at the same f stop. We will process the files with exactly the same software to get fair results. whats that? Different files need different software to get the best results. O.k. we'll use our preferred software for each camera. We'd better standardise the amount of USM we put on though eh? Whats that, different devices need different amounts of it, s how much shall we use? Hmm, I think we've failed again.

And that is just the start of testing the most basic parameter. What I'm getting at Ray is that it really isn't possible to give you what you want, you want an objective scientific A vs B test which will give us the answers. You know what, I do to, it would make our lives so much easier but that life. It means that unfortunately you have to figure it out through your own experience. Another way you can do it, as I have done in the past, is to figure out who seems to know what they are talking about, see what they say, see what they use and why they say they use it and take that as a guide, use the equipment yourself for a while and then you will know and understand it and it's limitations and qualities and then, you can make your own mind up from a reasoned and understanding place.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In addition to these serious problems starting when trying to choose lenses for each system with exactly matching optical characteristics, there is also the fact that a well executed test takes lots of time and money. I would not dare to ask anyone else to spend their valuable time on such a task unless I was prepared to pay for it (let's say it takes one day to do the test carefully and the tester needs to have 30,000$ worth of equipment thus I would not personally sell that kind of test-day for less than 1000$ even if I was personally interested in the results). When combined with the fact that the results would be shot down and disputed, mutated, annihilated and beaten to death a million times and dressed with personal insults, I really don't wonder why we don't see more of these Canon-vs-mfdb shootouts.

Cheers,
J
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #253 on: May 05, 2008, 10:27:13 am »

Ah, the sweet smell of yet another thread gone South; antagonism and controversy...  Ray is refreshingly predictable.

,
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Jack
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SecondFocus

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #254 on: May 05, 2008, 10:46:35 am »

Totally agreed and again because of...

I have learned to pretty much ignore certain posters and maybe just glance at those posts with amusement, they don't add anything anyway.

So we could put this thread back on track by doing just that. Just a suggestion, I am not emotionally invested in it either way

Quote
Ah, the sweet smell of yet another thread gone South; antagonism and controversy...  Ray is refreshingly predictable.

,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ian L. Sitren
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #255 on: May 05, 2008, 11:15:22 am »

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1st lets test the most basic parameter:

SHARPNESS:

To do this we must realize that we are not testing the sharpness of the lens (which lens would you choose for each device, which Fstop would you use and what focal length) we are testing the sharpness of the capture device. Oh hang on, you can't do that can you? canon lenses doesn't fit on a mamiya.

You are creating unnecessary problems. You choose lenses of comparable quality within each system. You decide on the subject and artistic intent first, example, shallow DoF or extensive DoF, use exactly the same lighting for each shot, choose focal length and f stop to ensure that the FoV and DoF is the same for each shot, and focus exactly on the same spot in each shot using LiveView and/or tethered computer.

You might choose, for example, a 120mm lens at F4 for the P21 and the 85/1.2 at F2.5 or F2.8 for the 1Ds3. You might have to move the 1Ds3 back from the subject just a little further depending on which side of the frame the FoV is matched (vertical or horizontal).

Quote
Right, so at the first basic hurdle we have failed. Next step, lets realize it's doomed to failure as an objective test before we start. No problem, lets just shoot the standard lens on each camera, shoot a subject that is exactly the same for each camera at the same f stop.

Well, your methodology would certainly fail because what you do not do is use the same f stop when using the standard lens with each format. The f stop has to be adjusted in proportion to the sensor size. If you are matching FoVs of the short sides of the frame, then the f stop for the DB should be 1.5x numerically greater. If you are matching the FoVs of the long sides, then the f stop used with the DB should be 1.33x numerically greater.

Quote
We will process the files with exactly the same software to get fair results. whats that? Different files need different software to get the best results. O.k. we'll use our preferred software for each camera. We'd better standardise the amount of USM we put on though eh? Whats that, different devices need different amounts of it, s how much shall we use? Hmm, I think we've failed again.

No. What you do is process each file as though you had two different clients for each image who were going to pay you $20,000 for a large print. If the reds in the 1Ds3 image look a bit weak, make them stronger. If the 1Ds3 image looks as though it needs more sharpening, give it more sharpening. If the WB in the P21 image looks more natural, tweak the white balance in the 1Ds3 image till it looks right; use the eyedropper on a neutral area or open in Camera Raw and change the temperature, whatever it takes.

I don't see a major problem here. Quite often when I do soft proofing in Photoshop I have to re-work an image for a particular paper and profile, which sometimes means lightening it, brightening it, increasing saturation or reducing saturation of colors which are out of gamut. I usually have a duplicate of the previously processed image on the screen at the same time as a guide. Processing two images of the identical scene so they look as close as possible should not be too difficult.
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SecondFocus

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« Reply #256 on: May 05, 2008, 11:15:53 am »

In the concept of maybe getting this thread back on track, I will point out something that I have found very informative. And you will excuse for not having read every post in this thread.

We have two active threads with great examples, in MFDB we have "Recent Works" with some superb examples of MFDB photography and with some technical information.

And then over in Digital Cameras we have "Recent Works' dedicated to posting images in the 35mm format.

Going back and forth between the two lets you make your own decision about MFDB or 35mm digital. Now it does not specifically answer the question about the 1DsMkIII but it does allow you to look at the differences, if indeed you do see differences.

As for myself, I like MFDB but would like a 1DsMkIII. For me it is an issue of using the right tool for the right job and what I want my work to look like. There are a number of cameras and other things I would like to add to my inventory, but I do not have unlimited resources. I have a photography business to run and I need it to be profitable. And then means you can't just go around buying everything.

So for me, medium format is the most bang for the buck and it gives me the versatility and the images I want. Will I add a MkIII? Planning on it. And maybe a Leica M7 too
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Ian L. Sitren
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thsinar

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« Reply #257 on: May 05, 2008, 11:18:14 am »

... and I would even do it for Ray, if somebody can provide me a 1Ds3, a 5D or whatever is wished to be compared!

 

Thierry

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Already several dealers/company representatives have offered to help you get the equipment.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 11:24:50 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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John_Black

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« Reply #258 on: May 05, 2008, 11:23:34 am »

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I cannot find any direct comparisons there either, just a lot of outrageous statement such as...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Work on your reading skills...

[a href=\"http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium_Format_Blog/Entries/2008/2/16_MEDIUM_FORMAT_VERSUS_CANON_AND_NIKON.html]http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium..._AND_NIKON.html[/url]

http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium...5D_PART_II.html

http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium...D_PART_III.html
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juicy

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #259 on: May 05, 2008, 11:24:01 am »

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... and I would even do it for Ray, if somebody can provide me a 1Ds3, a 5D or whatever is wished to be compared!

 

Thiery
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Suicidal?  
 

Cheers,
J
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