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Author Topic: Michael's DoF Essay Question and Examples  (Read 18136 times)

bernie west

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Michael's DoF Essay Question and Examples
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2008, 01:56:45 am »

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No, of course you cannot make the background look the same with different focal lengths, but that is not the topic you started.  Using a longer focal length does not make the background "softer"; it changes the perspective of the background.  What is important to understand for the purposes of this thread is that longer focal lengths have the same DOF as shorter focal lengths at the same aperture and magnification.  Increasing focal length will not decrease DOF and beyond a reasonable point actually distorts perspective as much as using a too short focal length -- you can make someone appear too flat just as you can make them appear to tall, too top or bottom heavy, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Honestly, some people could argue under water.  I don't know what technical point of view you are coming from, but the reality is that DOF is a perceptual phenomenon.  The only thing that matters in the determination of DOF for a human viewer is a determination of acceptable sharpness.  Whether the background of a telephoto shot is "softer" or not, it is certainly less acceptably sharp.  Using the OP's original images, I can make certain parts of the middle background of the shorter focal length appear acceptably sharp just by walking back from my monitor a bit.  For the same distance from my monitor, this isn't the case for the longer focal length.  Therefore, in this case, DOF IS greater in shorter focal length images.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 01:57:39 am by bernie west »
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01af

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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2008, 05:55:52 am »

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Using a longer focal length does not make the background "softer"; it changes the perspective of the background.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tony, this statement is wrong. Actually, using a longer focal length (and backing up accordingly) will make the background softer and change perspective, i. e. make the background objects appear larger. With regard to relative sharpness of the background objects, these two effects cancel each other out, i. e. relative sharpness remains the same (more or less). But DOF does change, because DOF is about absolute sharpness, not relative. You, and Michael R., mustn't confuse these two things.

If with the shorter focal length an object in the background that is just outside DOF can be recognized despite the blur, then with a longer focal length (from an accordingly longer distance) it will be recognizable, too. It will be rendered more blurred but also bigger, i. e. relative sharpness will be the same. But this fact doesn't entitle you to say DOF was the same! DOF is not relative sharpness. DOF is defined via the diameter of the circles of confusion, and those diameters will increase  due to the larger magnification of the background objects so DOF will decrease.


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What is important to understand for the purposes of this thread is that longer focal lengths have the same DOF as shorter focal lengths at the same aperture and magnification.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This statement is wrong again, generally! It's true only as a first-order approximation so it will hold only in those cases where DOF is small in relation to focusing distance, i. e. when comparing long lenses to longer lenses, or in the macro range. But when comparing a, say, 28 mm lens to a 100 mm lens (for 35-mm format) then the difference in DOF, caused by the second-order effect of non-constant magnifications across the range of DOF, will become obvious.


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Increasing focal length will not decrease DOF ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It will---particularly when starting out with a short focal length. Less so when starting out with a lens that already is fairly long.

Let's just use a depth-of-field calculator (there are several floating around on the Internet) and compute a few examples:

35-mm format, COC = 0.030 mm

17 mm lens, f/11, focus distance 0.61 m:
DOF is 1.35 m, from 0.37 m to 1.72 m (or -0.24 m to +1.11 m);

28 mm lens, f/11, focus distance 1.00 m:
DOF is 0.92 m, from 0.72 m to 1.64 m (or -0.28 m to +0.64 m);

50 mm lens, f/11, focus distance 1.79 m:
DOF is 0.81 m, from 1.47 m to 2.28 m (or -0.32 m to +0.49 m);

100 mm lens, f/11, focus distance 3.57 m:
DOF is 0.78 m, from 3.22 m to 4.01 m (or -0.35 m to +0.44 m);

300 mm lens, f/11, focus distance 10.71 m:
DOF is 0.77 m, from 10.33 m to 11.10 m (or -0.38 m to +0.39 m);

1,000 mm lens, f/11, focus distance 35.71 m:
DOF is 0.77 m, from 35.33 m to 36.10 m (or -0.38 m to +0.39 m).

The focus distances are adjusted to the focal lengths so at the plane of focus the magnification will be always the same. As you can see, DOF decreases rapidly in the wide-angle range (high influence of the 2nd-order effect) und then slower in the telephoto range (2nd-order effect hardly shows up here). Between 300 mm and 1,000 mm the change is only millimeters---or fractions thereof. So for practical intents and purposes, we can ignore the 2nd-order effect for lenses longer than portrait telephoto ... or maybe even for anything longer than a standard lens if we're not too finicky. But we definitely cannot for wide-angle lenses.

Contrary to intuition, foreground DOF increases with longer focal lengths but background DOF decreases, and at a faster rate so the sum of the two also decreases. (By the way, those who still believe DOF always extends 1/3rd towards the camera and 2/3rds into the background should give this (wrong) notion a thought or two.)

Relative sharpness of background objects will be the same, more or less, across all focal lengths (i. e. rendered more blurred but also bigger with longer lenses) ... but that's not what DOF is about.

-- Olaf
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 09:51:44 am by 01af »
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 12:09:53 pm »

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Relative sharpness of background objects will be the same, more or less, across all focal lengths (i. e. rendered more blurred but also bigger with longer lenses) ... but that's not what DOF is about.

-- Olaf
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I often put DOF in quotations because it is a concept and not an absolute.  There is only one place where the image is in focus, and everything else is out of focus.

Despite the risk of being redundant, I find it necessary to repost the link demonstrating [a href=\"http://photos.imageevent.com/tonybeach/mypicturesfolder/sharing//Focal%20Length_DOF.jpg]"DOF"[/url].

Basically, what we are discussing here is a magic trick.  Claiming that the smaller focal length shows more detail behind the point of focus than the longer focal length does is the equivalent of claiming that the disappearing rabbit actually became invisible.  The rabbit disappeared because the audience can no longer see it; but the magician and the magician's assistant(s) know where the rabbit is and it is not invisible.  Likewise, you can see in the 100% crops below that the background on the bottom image taken at 105mm and f/11 appears "softer" than the image above it taken at 17mm and f/11, but close examination reveals nearly identical detail 25 inches behind the point of focus with both lenses (i.e. you can count just as many equal sized lines.

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01af

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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 05:50:09 pm »

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I often put DOF in quotations because it is a concept and not an absolute.
Oh---it is an absolute. How do you think DOF scales, DOF tables, DOF calculators, and DOF formulas are created? By magic? By cheating? Of course, the concept of DOF does contain some idealizing (as concepts always do) and furthermore an arbitrary convention of what we want to consider "sufficiently sharp." And of course you can argue about what "sufficiently" is supposed to mean. But this convention on "sufficiently" is clearly and unambiguously represented by a plain little number---the maximum diameter of the circle of confusion---and once you've settled on a value for that number, DOF is a clearly defined and precisely computable thing.


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Basically, what we are discussing here is a magic trick.
Obviously, you have no idea what DOF really is. In case you're interested to learn about this surprisingly complex concept, steer clear from Michael R.'s articles about DOF (as they contain several errors and misunderstandings) and carefully read Paul van Walree's excellent article on DOF instead (see here). After that, you may want to check out Harold M. Merklinger's ground-breaking article "The Ins and Outs of Focus" which is referred to as Reference #7 at the end of van Walree's article. That's the first essay about the concept of relative sharpness, or relative blur, that I am aware of (although Merklinger doesn't call it by that name).


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Claiming that the smaller focal length shows more detail behind the point of focus than the longer focal length does ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No-one claims such a thing. Instead, those who understand DOF claim that the shorter lens (from an accordingly shorter distance, and everything else being equal) has wider DOF. That's a different claim. Despite the risk of being redundant---you mustn't confuse these two concepts.

-- Olaf
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 06:13:11 pm by 01af »
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bernie west

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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 07:00:56 pm »

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I often put DOF in quotations because it is a concept and not an absolute.  There is only one place where the image is in focus, and everything else is out of focus.

Despite the risk of being redundant, I find it necessary to repost the link demonstrating "DOF".

Basically, what we are discussing here is a magic trick.  Claiming that the smaller focal length shows more detail behind the point of focus than the longer focal length does is the equivalent of claiming that the disappearing rabbit actually became invisible.  The rabbit disappeared because the audience can no longer see it; but the magician and the magician's assistant(s) know where the rabbit is and it is not invisible.  Likewise, you can see in the 100% crops below that the background on the bottom image taken at 105mm and f/11 appears "softer" than the image above it taken at 17mm and f/11, but close examination reveals nearly identical detail 25 inches behind the point of focus with both lenses (i.e. you can count just as many equal sized lines.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your images show one possible combination of subject distance, background distance and aperture, out of infinite possible combinations.  I'm glad you've found ONE that backs up your assertions.  Believe me there are millions more that don't back it up.  Just look at the OP's images, and 01af's dof calculation results.  And besides, using line charts, which we already know contain lines from viewing the perceptually sharper 17mm image, is disingenous.  If one was presented only with the 200mm f5 image from the OP, then one would have significant trouble describing what the background actually was.  Not so with the shorter focal length.

Once again, DOF is a perceptual phenomenon.  And it is ultimately defined by acceptable sharpness as determined by a particular viewer.
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 08:30:08 pm »

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Your images show one possible combination of subject distance, background distance and aperture, out of infinite possible combinations.  I'm glad you've found ONE that backs up your assertions.  Believe me there are millions more that don't back it up.  Just look at the OP's images, and 01af's dof calculation results.  And besides, using line charts, which we already know contain lines from viewing the perceptually sharper 17mm image, is disingenous.  If one was presented only with the 200mm f5 image from the OP, then one would have significant trouble describing what the background actually was.  Not so with the shorter focal length.

Once again, DOF is a perceptual phenomenon.  And it is ultimately defined by acceptable sharpness as determined by a particular viewer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The link I provided to the comparisons also compared 3 inches, 6 inches, 9 inches and 12 inches at f/5.6, in addition to the above at 25 inches at f/11.  What I see in this thread is a lot of verbage and a bit of confusion, but I know what my experience is and what I see with my own eyes.  I have done this comparison in a number of ways, including shots of tree outside my front door taken with a 35mm and with a 200mm lens with the background being over a block away and the results are always the same -- the rendition of out of focus areas between whatever focal lengths is always comparable.  If you, Olaf, or anyone else has a pair of images taken in a manner that allows us to see two objects of equal distance in the background taken at the same aperture with the same magnification but at different focal lengths that demonstrates that I am wrong -- then I would be happy to see them.

As for Olaf's claim that DOF is something that is absolute; he contradicts himself in pointing out that the very definition of what constitutes an acceptable CoC is debatable.  Since the most widely accepted definitions upon which most tables and formulas are based on is 4x6 inch prints viewed from 10 inches away, and many choose to define it more narrowly, this means that it is not absolute since two people can reasonably disagree about what is or is not within the "DOF".  Anyway, I have read Merklinger and am well aware of all of this and find the both the discussion and the underlying math quite boring; what I see when I actually take the images and compare them is empirical proof and everything else is essentially a waste of time.  So it comes down to that old saw, "Just go out and take some pictures."
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bernie west

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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 09:05:00 pm »

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If you, Olaf, or anyone else has a pair of images taken in a manner that allows us to see two objects of equal distance in the background taken at the same aperture with the same magnification but at different focal lengths that demonstrates that I am wrong -- then I would be happy to see them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The OP has already provided them.  Like I said earlier - step back from your monitor and you can make the red sticks (or whatever they are) in the background appear in focus for the shorter focal length shots, but for the same distance away, you can't do so for the longer focal lenght shots.  Try it.

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As for Olaf's claim that DOF is something that is absolute; he contradicts himself in pointing out that the very definition of what constitutes an acceptable CoC is debatable.  Since the most widely accepted definitions upon which most tables and formulas are based on is 4x6 inch prints viewed from 10 inches away, and many choose to define it more narrowly, this means that it is not absolute since two people can reasonably disagree about what is or is not within the "DOF". 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think what Olaf is trying to say is that once an acceptable CoC has been agreed upon, then it is absolute from that point on.  However, I do seem to remember reading that at short and very long subject distances, the equations involved are only best approximations.  Anyway, ultimately all the equations don't matter.  What matters is the viewing of images and the determination of acceptable sharpness.  As shown by my example above, the depth of field in the shorter focal length shot IS larger than the other.
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2008, 10:18:16 pm »

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The OP has already provided [valid comparisons].
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, he has not.  Here is a valid comparison that meets all the parameters I insist on.  Once again, it is yet another focus distance, aperture, and degree of magnification; but as with all the others, the results are the same -- anyone doubting my veracity or the validity of my tests should perform them for themselves.

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bernie west

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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2008, 10:24:06 pm »

All that is showing is that they are both out of focus and outside of depth of field range.  Why is the OP's image not valid?  Look at it and step back from your monitor and tell me what you see.
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2008, 10:49:01 pm »

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All that is showing is that they are both out of focus and outside of depth of field range.  Why is the OP's image not valid?  Look at it and step back from your monitor and tell me what you see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Geez Bernie, you are the one arguing from underwater.  I already told you why the OP's original image is not valid; there are no two things to compare in them.  If I get close enough to what I'm focusing on with a long enough focal length then there will be very little left in the background (because of the reduced FOV) to make any comparisons to compared to using a shorter focal length which will provide a wider FOV and therefore more stuff (albeit rendered very small).  The point is any two things you see in both images will be equally soft, presuming there's anything to see in the longer focal length shot.

What my examples show is that anything that is not in focus is equally out of focus and that the detail (or lack thereof) is the same regardless of focal length, the above example shows that 200mm is no "softer" than 35mm.    Go out and take some shots, take them at any aperture, at any focal length, at any focus distance you like and bring them back here and show me that there is a greater or lesser degree of focus.  I have shown you 3, 6, 9, 12 and 25 inches, and now I have shown you 113 feet -- the results are always the same.
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bernie west

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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2008, 11:15:08 pm »

Ok, two points.

1. In the OP's images, as I have already said, the red sticks (?) are in both images.  Step back from your monitor and tell me what you see.

2.  I shouldn't have so easily dismissed your images.  The EXACT same thing applies to your set of images too!  Step back from your monitor to a point at which the sign in the background appears sharp (short focal length image), and then tell me whether you think the sign in the long focal length image appears sharp.  You'd need corrective eye surgery if you did.

The problem with your argument is that you aren't being specific enough with your definitions.  Whilst it is kinda true that they are blurred to the same extent, you need to go qualify that by saying they are blurred to the same relative extent.  But the long focal lenght shot is blurred to a greater absolute extent.  Hence the need to step back even further to make it appear sharp.  And, once again, DOF is a perceptual phenomenon concerned with viewing images.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 11:15:58 pm by bernie west »
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2008, 11:45:59 pm »

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Ok, two points.

1. In the OP's images, as I have already said, the red sticks (?) are in both images.  Step back from your monitor and tell me what you see.

2.  I shouldn't have so easily dismissed your images.  The EXACT same thing applies to your set of images too!  Step back from your monitor to a point at which the sign in the background appears sharp (short focal length image), and then tell me whether you think the sign in the long focal length image appears sharp.  You'd need corrective eye surgery if you did.

The problem with your argument is that you aren't being specific enough with your definitions.  Whilst it is kinda true that they are blurred to the same extent, you need to go qualify that by saying they are blurred to the same relative extent.  But the long focal lenght shot is blurred to a greater absolute extent.  Hence the need to step back even further to make it appear sharp.  And, once again, DOF is a perceptual phenomenon concerned with viewing images.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, and to take this to it's logical extreme  - "reductio ad absurdum" if you like - if you step back far enough everything will be sharp!

DOF is a perceptual phenomenon based around an arbitrarily defined COC. In a small print, DOF seems bigger because the COCs are less than whatever threshold you deem appropriate. On a big print, you have merely enlarged the same detail or COCs therefore the DOF seems less - ask any large format shooter (like me).

If it seems sharp, it is sharp. QED.

No doubt there are all sorts of optical calculations to be made but AFAICT they all depend on defining a COC size and, a print size and a viewing distance. If you set the COC big enough then everything could be said to be in focus, small enough and nothing is in focus.

It's all about what looks in focus - the eyes have it.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2008, 01:51:20 am »

Interesting technical discussion.

However, when I shoot a subject (a person) with my 200mm at 200mm, the background looks more out of focus than it does with shorter focal lengths, given that the focus point is close enough and the background close enough. So if I shoot a low neckline/head shot, the background appears much more out of focus than does the same shot with a 35mm focal length.

Also, in my examples, I can't see how backing up is going to give you detail in the f5 200m image because there IS NO REAL DETAIL!

Not only that, but if you back up away from one image, to be consistent, you have to view the other image at the same distance and the one always looks softer than the other, even at 1000 feet.

We're not talking about virtual zoom distances. Were talking about printing the image--or viewing it above (ok?)--and then backing up from BOTH images.

If people really think the backgrounds look the same, is the same, practically the same, in practice the same, then why not use 35mms for close up images instead of 200 or 400mms when doing things such as people shots?

It seems like we're going around in circles here. Technically, perhaps yes, no difference. But I'm not taking pictures of clients with a 17mm lens when I need the background wiped--as is the case in the f5 200mm example above--even if it is technically the same.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 02:02:09 am by dwdallam »
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2008, 02:31:00 am »

What you need to understand is that what is wiping out the background using a longer focal length is not reduced DOF, it is reduced FOV.  Reducing the FOV to isolate your subject is a legitimate consideration, but it needs to be understood so that you or someone else doesn't reverse this mistaken argument about DOF and make the mistake of thinking they can increase the DOF (for instance, to try and get two rows of people simultaneously in focus) by simply using a shorter focal length but still using the same aperture and magnification.  Yes, there are secondary considerations like the absolute size of the aperture -- which is like painting with a smaller or larger brush; but soft is soft regardless of whether it is soft small brush strokes or soft large brush strokes.

Regarding the related question of "acceptable" DOF, these formulas and tables are subjective.  Below is an image where the back piece is supposed to be "in focus" by an inch according to the tables (based on .02 CoC "acceptable" focus is 4" behind the front piece's arm, but it is only 3 inches back and is already soft IMHO).  That is probably an acceptable DOF up to 8x10, but for a larger print it would start becoming noticeably soft.
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bernie west

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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2008, 02:37:00 am »

forget about your tables and everything, because for this discussion they don't matter.  What matters is comparing the DOF between two different focal length images with the same pair of eyes.  It doesn't matter what you set the CoC at, or what arbitrary parameters you use to determine it, forget all about it.  "The eyes have it" as Nick said.  All that matters is what you see.  Please do my test as I keep begging of you, and you will see what we are talking about.
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2008, 03:09:02 am »

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forget about your tables and everything, because for this discussion they don't matter.  What matters is comparing the DOF between two different focal length images with the same pair of eyes.  It doesn't matter what you set the CoC at, or what arbitrary parameters you use to determine it, forget all about it.  "The eyes have it" as Nick said.  All that matters is what you see.  Please do my test as I keep begging of you, and you will see what we are talking about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188635\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Regarding your analysis of the original 40mm v. 200m comparison, the two "red sticks" are not even in the 200mm image.  Look at the image and you will see that they were at center court, but you can only make out the far fence line in the 200mm image because the angle and FOV changed.  As for comparisons of how out of focus 35mm is versus 200mm, they are as you said equally out of focus and if anything the sign in the 200mm image is sharper than the 35mm sign is -- especially if you back up to make the 200mm background the same size as the 35mm background.

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bernie west

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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2008, 04:33:18 am »

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Regarding your analysis of the original 40mm v. 200m comparison, the two "red sticks" are not even in the 200mm image.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Umm... yes they are.

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As for comparisons of how out of focus 35mm is versus 200mm, they are as you said equally out of focus

No, that's what you say.  I say they are equally out of focus relative to their sizes, but in an absolute sense, which is what is important in DOF determination, they are certainly not equal.

 
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and if anything the sign in the 200mm image is sharper than the 35mm sign is -- especially if you back up to make the 200mm background the same size as the 35mm background.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

back up?  but then we aren't talking about apples vs. apples.  For DOF comparison the subjects must be the same size in the two images.

Have you tried my test yet??
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01af

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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2008, 08:51:45 am »

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I know what my experience is ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, I am afraid you don't. You can see something but you don't understand it. And then you refuse to listen to those who try to explain it to you.


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I have done this comparison in a number of ways [...] and the results are always the same---the rendition of out-of-focus areas between whatever focal lengths is always comparable.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, sure it is. Nobody can deny this. But what you need to understand is this: comparable rendition (i. e. equal relative blur) does not mean that DOF was the same. Got it? DOF on the one hand and relative blur on the other hand are two different things. If one of the two is equal in images taken with different focal lengths from corresponding distances then the other usually is not.


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If you, Olaf, or anyone else has a pair of images taken in a manner that allows us to see two objects of equal distance in the background taken at the same aperture with the same magnification ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You mean, with the same magnification at the plane of focus, don't you?


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... but at different focal lengths that demonstrates that I am wrong---then I would be happy to see them.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No-one has such a pair of images. Because you are right with regard to relative blur. Still that doesn't mean DOF was the same. Because DOF being equal and relative blur being equal ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! Please stop confusing the two!


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As for Olaf's claim that DOF is something that is absolute; he contradicts himself ...
I think what Olaf is trying to say is that once an acceptable CoC has been agreed upon, then it is absolute from that point on.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly.


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I already told you why the OP's original image is not valid; there are no two things to compare in them.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Umm ... is there something wrong with your eyes?


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What my examples show is that anything that is not in focus is equally out of focus ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In relative terms---yes (i. e. same level of detail). In absolute terms---no (i. e. different DOF).


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What you need to understand is that what is wiping out the background using a longer focal length is not reduced DOF, it is reduced FOV.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, it is reduced FOV and reduced DOF.


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... and make the mistake of thinking they can increase the DOF [...] by simply using a shorter focal length but still using the same aperture and magnification.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, that's no mistake. Using a smaller focal length (at the same aperture and magnification, i. e. shorter distance) will increase DOF. Of course, it will not (or hardly) increase the level of detail in the background objects ... which obviously is confusing the hell out of some.

So, to answer Doug's original question: Yes, using a longer focal length from a longer distance (so that magnification at the plane of focus is the same) at the same aperture will render the background softer and more out of focus. That's a trivial and well-known fact for all photographers who have ever switched from a standard or wide-angle lens to a telephoto lens.

It will also render the background objects bigger so their level of detail will be the same as before---aproximately the same for closer background objects; exactly the same for background objects at infinity. But that's a different story.

-- Olaf
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Tony Beach

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Michael's DoF Essay Question and Examples
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2008, 11:42:03 am »

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Umm... yes they [the red sticks] are.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernie, you are ignoring the effect of the reduced FOV at 200mm (illustrated below).  The background tree just to the left of the subject serves as a reference point to draw an outline of where the 200mm background lines up within the 40mm shot -- it is not surprising to see that it lines up approximately in the middle.  It appears to me that the red sticks are not in the 200mm shot.



This entire discussion is confused by what represents more or less detail.  There is more detail in a wider FOV inasmuch as I can see that the sign is on a corner; but I can no more read what the sign says at 35mm than I can at 200mm, but I can actually tell that are two prominent red areas in the sign in the 200mm shot which cannot be made out in the 35mm shot.

Olaf, if you are right about DOF decreasing at longer focal lengths then it stands to reason that the opposite is true.

Here's a simple exercise that has practical implications for portrait photographers.  Take a couple with one person standing behind the other and take two shots of them; one farther back with a longer focal length and the other closer with a shorter focal length.  Will the person in back be any more in focus (i.e. "sharper")?  If the answer is no, and that is the answer, then there is no increase in the "DOF", unless you want to define "DOF" as something that allows the back person's eyes to be not as sharp as the front person's eyes.

I'm sure both of you and perhaps the OP as well will continue to tell me that I am wrong and just don't understand.  That's fine, I don't care and will not reply any more to this thread since I am satisfied that I have communicated with reasoned argument and valid examples why focal length does not change "DOF".
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01af

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Michael's DoF Essay Question and Examples
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2008, 03:08:32 pm »

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Bernie, you are ignoring the effect of the reduced FOV at 200mm (illustrated below). [...] It appears to me that the red sticks are not in the 200 mm shot.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tony, your "illustration" is flawed in more than one regard, and illustrates nothing. Why don't you simply take a look at Doug's 200-mm shot? The red posts are there in the 200-mm shot which is obvious to anybody who bothers to open the eyes.


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This entire discussion is confused by what represents more or less detail.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can see absolutely no confusion whatsoever as to what "more or less detail" is supposed to mean in the context of this discussion.


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... but I can actually tell that are two prominent red areas in the sign in the 200 mm shot which cannot be made out in the 35 mm shot.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They cannot? Well, I can see them easily in both shots. Actually, in the 35-mm shot I can see that the lower red area is bigger than the upper one while in the 200-mm shot, they appear almost equal in size. Exposure and contrast are different which makes comparison of sharpness tricky. I'd say the sign in the background of the 35-mm shot has slightly better resolution but much less contrast.


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Olaf, if you are right about DOF decreasing at longer focal lengths then it stands to reason that the opposite is true.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am right, and your opinion about what's true is distorted. Let me guess: you didn't bother to study Paul van Walree's article that I refered to above, did you? Neither did you get out your DOF calculator and checked out a few examples, did you? Sure, images are more compelling than formulas---the proof is in the pudding, as the British say---but do you really think formulas in text books are made up by evil creatures only to confuse and deceive good boys like you? Rather than misinterpreting your own flawed experiments, you should start reading, and learning, a bit or two about DOF. Poorly crafted test images can be very misleading.


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Take a couple with one person standing behind the other and take two shots of them; one farther back with a longer focal length and the other closer with a shorter focal length. Will the person in back be any more in focus (i. e. "sharper")?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Assuming the person in front is the one we are rendering at the same magnification and focusing at then the answer is---yes, the person in back will be rendered sharper with the shorter focal length. Why don't you simply try it?

If the longer lens is, say, a 200 mm lens and the shorter a 100 mm then the difference in sharpness will be minuscule and hardly perceivable. If however the longer lens again is a 200 mm lens and the shorter a 35 mm then the gain in the second person's rendition's sharpness will be very obvious.

Of course, the person in back will also be rendered smaller ... so most likely the result won't appeal very much, no matter what the DOF may be.


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If the answer is no, and that is the answer, then there is no increase in the "DOF", unless you want to define "DOF" as something that allows the back person's eyes to be not as sharp as the front person's eyes.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But DOF is something that allows this. Obviously you really have no idea what DOF is about. It's not about perfect sharpness; it's about sufficient sharpness---so yes, for two objects both within DOF, one may be still sharper than the other.


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I'm sure both of you and perhaps the OP as well will continue to tell me that I am wrong and just don't understand.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed! Maybe you should spend a minute to think about as to why we're doing so. Hint: it's not just to annoy you!

-- Olaf
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 03:10:59 pm by 01af »
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