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Author Topic: What do we charge for MFD rental  (Read 11049 times)

Dustbak

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 04:42:49 am »

I have different setups for different circumstances. For simple packshots I charge a setup fee and a per image cost which is low. For that I shoot it as is and the images are put on my FTP site. I add additional fees (costs per image) for, styling, extracting, retouching, renaming, DVD's, etc..

If clients want to do a lot by themselves they can have their stuff photographed cheaply and because I have to do minimal work I can make money of it as well. If they want more, they pay more, I make more and everybody is happy.

I also have clients that are adamant on using their own stylists. For those I use a flat hourly rate plus expenses. I have no objection of a stylist fooling around endlessly with dresses as long as the client is paying for my time. I actually love those assignments because the images have a very high acceptance rate.

For jobs abroad I charge a daily fee plus expenses

My equipment is basically integrated in my fees except when I need something really exotic. I don't want to discuss equipment choices with my clients. Even this way I still can be competetive because I make very clear what I do and what it costs this way I minimize doing stuff that is not paid for. The client gets me to use the equipment that does that particular job the best. Eg. I would not like to shoot white lacquer accessories on white with my D300 just because the client thinks it will save him some money, it will almost certainly cost him more at post-processing the images towards an acceptable result (if at all possible).

Indeed it does make me feel like a lawyer sometimes  I used to be a Tax advisor in an ancient past which is in the same kind of category, it is scary how much many these guys charge you. Even when they dream about you at night you get charged.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 08:48:33 am by Dustbak »
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jonstewart

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2008, 06:31:12 am »

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It might be overkill, but it differentiates me from other shooters, and makes me attractive to some purchasers, and not to others.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that's where it comes down to knowing clients /sectors as to which will respond positively to the detailed itemised billing and which won't.

By the way, this has been a very interesting thread, and thanks to all for sharing their practise. It wouldn't dawn on me to specifically 'hire' my equipment like this, but I do have some depreciation built into my fees, which I suppose is similar in a way.

Most of my clients (small business mostly) just want to know how much, what they are getting for that, and whether or not it fulfils their requirements. They seem much less interested in the items that go to making it up, and these are just listed together on the quotation. My feeling is that their view is, that they have enough accounting and lawyering to do, without adding a complex quotation of mine to it!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 06:46:28 am by jonstewart »
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rovanpera

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2008, 04:45:44 pm »

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For the price of a 1DsMKIII you can set up a good retouching suit these days.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Does that come with the retoucher?
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perbernal

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 06:24:37 pm »

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Hi
This has come up on a different thread today & I would like to talk about how much we charge for our digital kits. We normally charge about $800.00/day for a basic Mamiya kit with an Aptus 22 & G5 with a 17 Apple flat screen monitor. We have based this on what they would rent for. Normally an Aptus 22 is $500.00/day, G5 with display $200.00 & $100.00 for the Mamiya. With the Canon 1DsMKIII I will keep the price similar maybe $700.00 all up. I find on quotes these days after all the figures come in it is very rare the client says great. They usually want to find ways to reduce the cost so we loose a day & shoot longer days. I know other photographers here are charging up to $1900.00 for there digital kit. Digital techs are normally paid $300.00/day the same as lighting on AD jobs. I hope this does not sound like an odd question but this is the business side. As James said the client only cares about the bottom line & doesn't really care how all the line items add up as long as it meets the buget.
Denis
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This is a touchy area. I think the bottom line is not to be greedy but to be fair to your clients. They are not suppose to pay for your digital equipment but at the same time you should not feel that you are being taken advantage off. It needs to be a win-win situation. Whenever discussing my digital fees with new clients I always compare the usage of my equipment to the cost of film and processing + polaroids. It´s important to make your client aware and accustomed to that they will most likely save some money by you shooting digital v.s. film, but that there´s always going to be costs associated with his new media. A good idea is to compare your fee with the price of a local rental house. Generally I charge $500.00/day which includes a computer (laptop or stationary), digital cameras (Canon 1Ds MarkIII's or Aptus 75S w/H2), hard drives + a CD or DVD with low res FPO jpegs (for positioning only jpegs- appx 13x20 inches at 72Dpi) at the end of the shoot or downloaded to a server of their choice. I also keep the media from the shoot stored on 3 separate hard drives for future use and reference. If you shoot 80+ days a year you will always be able to afford the latest technology.
The bottom line is to always keep your clients happy. Never make them  feel like they have been taken to the cleaner at the end of a shoot. Usually they don´t mind paying for your services if the outcome is great and you have been easy and entertaining to work with. Here´s where you make the big buck + in post production where you perfect your images.
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paulmoorestudio

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 07:18:27 pm »

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This is a touchy area. I think the bottom line is not to be greedy but to be fair to your clients. They are not suppose to pay for your digital equipment but at the same time you should not feel that you are being taken advantage off. It needs to be a win-win situation. Whenever discussing my digital fees with new clients I always compare the usage of my equipment to the cost of film and processing + polaroids. It´s important to make your client aware and accustomed to that they will most likely save some money by you shooting digital v.s. film, but that there´s always going to be costs associated with his new media. A good idea is to compare your fee with the price of a local rental house. Generally I charge $500.00/day which includes a computer (laptop or stationary), digital cameras (Canon 1Ds MarkIII's or Aptus 75S w/H2), hard drives + a CD or DVD with low res FPO jpegs (for positioning only jpegs- appx 13x20 inches at 72Dpi) at the end of the shoot or downloaded to a server of their choice. I also keep the media from the shoot stored on 3 separate hard drives for future use and reference. If you shoot 80+ days a year you will always be able to afford the latest technology.
The bottom line is to always keep your clients happy. Never make them  feel like they have been taken to the cleaner at the end of a shoot. Usually they don´t mind paying for your services if the outcome is great and you have been easy and entertaining to work with. Here´s where you make the big buck + in post production where you perfect your images.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I pretty much follow this thinking and structure..I feel you are not doing yourself or the industry any favors by not charging for the back and what goes with it - I understand different segments of the market can't bare the costs involved with mfdb..but when you essentially give it away to the clients ( they wont complain with this) and at the same time accept glass ceiling shoot fees then you and me will be screwed in the long run. Hey your budget is 2 grand for the whole shoot?
well maybe you can't afford to have it shot with a mfdb, sorry.
When using my own mfdb it is usually just below the going rate for that the rental house charges. On top of that is a per shot capture fee .. not individual frames but separate shots as defined in the est/contract.  Also usually a dedicated crew to process / proof as we are shooting. and the proofs are billed as well. I think the major manufactures should sponsor some apa events to educate photographers so they will be able to budget the next back they want to spring on us...
if you need to have a cat/scan you think your doctor or hmo is going to let you get as many views/scans as you want? and will they tell you, oh dont worry, its all part of my visit fee.
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perbernal

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2008, 08:41:33 pm »

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I pretty much follow this thinking and structure..I feel you are not doing yourself or the industry any favors by not charging for the back and what goes with it - I understand different segments of the market can't bare the costs involved with mfdb..but when you essentially give it away to the clients ( they wont complain with this) and at the same time accept glass ceiling shoot fees then you and me will be screwed in the long run. Hey your budget is 2 grand for the whole shoot?
well maybe you can't afford to have it shot with a mfdb, sorry.
When using my own mfdb it is usually just below the going rate for that the rental house charges. On top of that is a per shot capture fee .. not individual frames but separate shots as defined in the est/contract.  Also usually a dedicated crew to process / proof as we are shooting. and the proofs are billed as well. I think the major manufactures should sponsor some apa events to educate photographers so they will be able to budget the next back they want to spring on us...
if you need to have a cat/scan you think your doctor or hmo is going to let you get as many views/scans as you want? and will they tell you, oh dont worry, its all part of my visit fee.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I´m foremost an editorial photographer and I´m aware that the cost structure is different from shooting advertisement where the budgets usually are much higher. But I never felt that I´m giving away my equipment for free as I always charge for my rig such as studio fees, grip and light fees, digital fees ( specified earlier), catering, production RV fees etc. What I´m trying is to  bring is a little sense to the table. I have been contacted many times by digital tech´s here in LA that want to sell me their services. But it´s hard for me to see why my client should pay them $1500-2000.00 a day for their work, when one of my assistants can do the same thing for $300.00 a day under my supervision? Is it wrong to try to save so money for my clients? Remember, they have to pay for 2-3 assistants at $300.00 a pop, a stylist at $1000.00 or more, hair & make-up people at $600.00-1000.00, catering etc. plus my own fees (see above). A "camel" can only carry so much weight before it breaks so you got to be sensible about the load. As I said before, you make the big buck when shooting + in post production where you perfect your images. The rest is just a matter of landing the job. A digital fee that is to high should never be the reason for losing a job.
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mcfoto

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2008, 08:41:45 pm »

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Does that come with the retoucher?
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Hi
No. This is an example that retouchers are making as much or more on the same AD job. However there investment is a LOT less. Here in Sydney AD agencies are doing more in house retouching as they see a profit here. We are doing all our editorial & some AD work now even with complex stuff.
Denis
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James R Russell

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2008, 09:14:44 pm »

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Hi
No. This is an example that retouchers are making as much or more on the same AD job. However there investment is a LOT less. Here in Sydney AD agencies are doing more in house retouching as they see a profit here. We are doing all our editorial & some AD work now even with complex stuff.
Denis
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Talking numbers on an open forum can be a slippery sloap, but in the real world the only rule is there is really no rules, or better put the rules change depending on your market and personal perspective.

A digital tech in NY will generally have a rate that is pretty much standard with everyone else in the New York market and I promise you believes their rate is completely justified,  but that is from the digtal tech's perspective.  This holds true for Hair, Makeup, retouching, stylists, assistants and in some cases all of the fees are justified, in some they really aren't.

The real rule and the only rule should be is you invest in your business, use what's appropriate for the project and try to stay profitable.

There are about 10 million ways to reach this sceanrio and what is profitable for someone living in Omaha can be way different for someone living in Malibu.

We all have clients that cut budgets, or have shortfalls and try to find ways to make up the margins.  There is nothing new about that in any industry and though it may seem appropriate to think, "well they're not paying for ________, so bugger it I'll use my less expensive equipment", but does your client's budget dictate your standards, at least if you already own the equipment?"

I'm not advocating giving anything away, but usually investment in your business reaps rewards.

This industry can get sideways very quickly and from "my" perspective of couse no retoucher should make more on a project than I do, then again I've seen some photographs before the retoucher saved them and I think the retoucher should have been paid double.  

Of course were not talking about my photographs.  

The real question all of us have to ask ourself is if money and creativity is leaving our domain, how to we retrieve it, how do we make it so an Ad Agency has no benifit in taking it in house.

Early on with digital I learned that possession of the files is a positive and not a negative.  If you have the files, make them almost instantly retrievable, keep excellent cataloging and can process, retouch and deliver image(s) in a better, more cost effective and effecient way then the retouching will come under your roof, even if you live in an electronic house.

Though not to get into specifics, we have devised a way to pretty much keep the process to a one e-mail, one response, one button click delivery method for our clients.

This isn't for the faint of heart, takes a lot of work and investment  and keeps you or someone in your studio married to the computer almost always, but then again it keeps you envolved with you clients in ways that film, or even just dropping off processed files never could.

JR
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 01:33:44 am by James R Russell »
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rovanpera

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2008, 02:38:28 am »

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Hi
No. This is an example that retouchers are making as much or more on the same AD job. However there investment is a LOT less. Here in Sydney AD agencies are doing more in house retouching as they see a profit here. We are doing all our editorial & some AD work now even with complex stuff.
Denis
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Well I don't see retouchers charging clients for their use of their own equipment, apart from scanning and prints.

There are photographers who rent all the equipment and studios. Should their day rate be lower?
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David WM

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2008, 09:30:37 am »

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Generally I charge $500.00/day which includes a computer (laptop or stationary), digital cameras (Canon 1Ds MarkIII's or Aptus 75S w/H2), hard drives + a CD or DVD with low res FPO jpegs (for positioning only jpegs- appx 13x20 inches at 72Dpi) at the end of the shoot or downloaded to a server of their choice. I also keep the media from the shoot stored on 3 separate hard drives for future use and reference. If you shoot 80+ days a year you will always be able to afford the latest technology.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, I think I must have missed something here. Do you mean that on a gross annual turnover of $40K (80 days @ $500/day) one should afford to maintain the latest digital capture gear in MF and Dslr, computer equipment, not to mention lighting, advertising and other overheads as well as make a living? I just don't see how the maths adds up.
David
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James R Russell

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2008, 12:40:19 pm »

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Well I don't see retouchers charging clients for their use of their own equipment, apart from scanning and prints.

There are photographers who rent all the equipment and studios. Should their day rate be lower?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You charge what the market, or the project will allow.  I've heard photographers say a billion things like "I would never shoot for under _________ a day, or I would never use my cameras for "free".

All that's bull because if it's something they want to shoot, or something they "have" to shoot the numbers will move.  It's the same with retouchers, heck it's even the same for a plubming supply.

Everyone is different, some people can't stand to own equipment, other have to own everything.

I find owning my own eqipment frees me to do what I want, charge what I want, test and experiment when I want.

If I want to add to my portoflio we just load the truck and I don't have those overburdening thoughts of how much the day is costing me, or use something that is really not right for the job  because I don't want the rental fees.

Personally I have a strong dislike for rentals.  I never feel as comfortable with rental equipment as I do my own and it just seems wasteful to rent things like sandbags, or 12x rags that costs the same as buying if your working multiple days.

Also if I own my own equipment, it doesn't bother me to take a truck of equipment and only use a fill card as I don't feel I wasted anything.

JR
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perbernal

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What do we charge for MFD rental
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2008, 01:05:40 pm »

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Sorry, I think I must have missed something here. Do you mean that on a gross annual turnover of $40K (80 days @ $500/day) one should afford to maintain the latest digital capture gear in MF and Dslr, computer equipment, not to mention lighting, advertising and other overheads as well as make a living? I just don't see how the maths adds up.
David
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Yes, you actually missed something. The digital fee does not include shooting fees, studio fees, grip & light fees etc. It only covers the digital part of the shoot excluding any post production. If you consider the life span of a digital camera or back and a good computer system (usually 2-3 years) you will be well ahead of the curve in the end. Even when including the time it takes for you to do a quick editing, CD/DVD burning and storage to hard drives.
One of my close friends works at a major rental house and you would be surprised how much money they make on their 1DS camera rentals. Not only do they get their 300 + dollars per day but they also get about half of what the paid for these cameras back at the end of their life cycle when they are sold as used. Same applies to us photographers. It just a matter of staying busy shooting:)
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