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Author Topic: Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!  (Read 68124 times)

Jonathan Wienke

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #200 on: April 09, 2008, 09:48:04 am »

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Jonathan,
Please try to tell us something that everyone doesn't already know. We all know that photography involves combinations of technique, choice of subject matter, choice of equipment, treatment of subject matter, degrees of artistic judgement as well as sometimes sheer luck and so on.

There's no need to keep repeating the obvious, that you need a camera to take a photograph and that any camera is not necessarily a suitable tool for all tasks.

We understand that. We're not as retarded as you think

You obviously are, as you continue to argue in defense of Ken Rockwell, whose "camera doesn't matter" article argues forcefully against what you just said, and strongly advocates the notion that the only relevant factors in photography are the creativity and skill of the photographer.

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No. I'm the one who has been finding meaning in such a statement, by using a bit of nous, and the meaning is not that the camera literally has no relevance whatsoever to the taking of a photograph. I don't find that reading or interpretation at all meaningful, but some people obviously do.

The problem is that to derive your interpretation from what Rockwell wrote, you have to engage in a process that completely discards what the words actually say, and replace the obvious common-sense meaning of the words with what you want them to mean. This is the same illogical process that Bill Clinton used to claim that he didn't lie when he said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", and that lawyers use on a daily basis to pervert justice to their own advantage (as in the case of the man who stabbed his wife to death, got out after less than 2 years in prison, and then proceeded to collect nearly a million pounds inheritance from his dead wife's estate). It's also used by cult leaders to justify the forced marriage of multiple underage girls to middle-aged men (FLDS), persuade their followers to drink poisoned Kool-Aid (Jim Jones), or induce them to commit murder (Charles Manson). It's also used by every terrorist organization in the world from white supremacists to Muslim extremists to justify their acts of mass murder, torture, rape, and other atrocities based on their fallacious interpretation of their favorite holy book. If you think it is acceptable to ignore what words say they mean and interpret them however you like, simply because you want to interpret them that way, there is no limit to what you can justify.

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If Ray's interpretation is wrong, then what do you think Adams, Evans, Haas, and Feininger were trying to communicate in the quotes attributed to them?

The Adams quote certainly does NOT support Rockwell's premise. Stating that the photographer's brain is the most important aspect of photography is quite different than stating that it is the only significant aspect of photography. I haven't bothered to check, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the other quotes were similarly taken out of context or otherwise misused. But regardless of whether the quotes are used appropriately or not, Rockwell's point is still dubious at best, regardless of what celebrity endorsements he may claim supports it.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 09:52:30 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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Jonathan Wienke

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #201 on: April 09, 2008, 10:01:05 am »

The obvious, but non-literal interpretation of my previous post is "my farts smell like flowers".
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TaoMaas

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« Reply #202 on: April 09, 2008, 10:27:32 am »

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The Adams quote certainly does NOT support Rockwell's premise. Stating that the photographer's brain is the most important aspect of photography is quite different than stating that it is the only significant aspect of photography.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Whether the quotes support the article or not depends upon what you believe Rockwell's premise to be.  For your interpretation, the quotes have to be taken out of context, used incorrectly, or Adams and the others just don't know what the heck they're talking about.  But for Ray's interpretation, the quotes seem to fit.
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Ray

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« Reply #203 on: April 09, 2008, 10:30:01 am »

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You obviously are, as you continue to argue in defense of Ken Rockwell, whose "camera doesn't matter" article argues forcefully against what you just said, and strongly advocates the notion that the only relevant factors in photography are the creativity and skill of the photographer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's called rhetoric. That was immediately apparent to me, retarded or not.

Many of the problems in the world can be attributed to people failing to realise that something that is said rhetorically, as a persuasive argument, is not meant literally.

You should try to learn the distinction between deliberate lying in order to avoid prosecution or impeachment, as in the case of Bill Clinton, and a persuasive argument to get people to follow a certain practice which, in the case of Ken's article, is to pay less attention to your equipment and more to your artistic vision.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 10:33:05 am by Ray »
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Slough

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #204 on: April 09, 2008, 10:39:06 am »

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I'll stick with my comprehension skills which find meaning where yours don't, thankyou. To be able to comprehend where others can't, is an asset in my opinon.

Ken's article has meaning for me. If it has no meaning for you, then you are the worse off, in my view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It does have meaning for me. The one encapsulated by the words that he wrote, not a combination of Ken's words, and someone else's.

If you are too thick to understand basic English, that is your problem. However I suspect you would be one of the people enthusing about a profound artistic statement encapsulated so cleverly in such a small confine, when the object under discussion is no more than canned excrement. Sometimes canned excrement is canned excrement. Ken's article is the online equivalent.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #205 on: April 09, 2008, 10:52:58 am »

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Whether the quotes support the article or not depends upon what you believe Rockwell's premise to be.  For your interpretation, the quotes have to be taken out of context, used incorrectly, or Adams and the others just don't know what the heck they're talking about.  But for Ray's interpretation, the quotes seem to fit.

Except for the Adams quote, which is clearly being used out of context, as cited they support the literal meaning of Rockwell's words; that the camera doesn't matter at all. That's not what you and Ray are arguing.

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Many of the problems in the world can be attributed to people failing to realise that something that is said rhetorically, as a persuasive argument, is not meant literally.

You still need to demonstrate a logical basis for interpreting something as hyperbole; something more concrete than "I don't think that's what Rockwell meant, so I'm going to assume he meant something else." You have yet to do so.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 10:55:51 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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Slough

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« Reply #206 on: April 09, 2008, 11:12:56 am »

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It's called rhetoric. That was immediately apparent to me, retarded or not.

Many of the problems in the world can be attributed to people failing to realise that something that is said rhetorically, as a persuasive argument, is not meant literally.

You should try to learn the distinction between deliberate lying in order to avoid prosecution or impeachment, as in the case of Bill Clinton, and a persuasive argument to get people to follow a certain practice which, in the case of Ken's article, is to pay less attention to your equipment and more to your artistic vision.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is not rhetoric. Nor is it hyperbole. It is nonsense.
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Slough

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #207 on: April 09, 2008, 11:14:35 am »

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You still need to demonstrate a logical basis for interpreting something as hyperbole; something more concrete than "I don't think that's what Rockwell meant, so I'm going to assume he meant something else." You have yet to do so.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray has provided absolutely no evidence for his point of view other than "That's what I want it to mean, and I'll stamp my foot and shout until you agree."
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mrleonard

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #208 on: April 09, 2008, 12:13:45 pm »

It still goes on...what a laugh.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 12:17:30 pm by mrleonard »
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mrleonard

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #209 on: April 09, 2008, 12:31:30 pm »

You all(mostly) seem to frame this argument,that it has to do with KR's article. You go on about how we are not reading the words..and /or just taking whatever meaning we want from it,rather than logically understanding what he wrote. I dont know why it has to keep being mentioned...it is not KR's article per se that I am discussing in my OP's.I realise another thread died and got resurrected here...but I find that discussion pretty useless and uninteresting. Most of you seem to support a self-serving idea of what is being discussed. Jonathan and others keep bringing up a lot of evidence to support their argument...unfortunatley I don't think they understand the argument. They create the conundrum and then follow a logical course of action to correct it,thus seemingly absolving them of being wrong. Sort of like the U.S.'s actions in Iraq.
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Slough

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« Reply #210 on: April 09, 2008, 12:46:37 pm »

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You all(mostly) seem to frame this argument,that it has to do with KR's article. You go on about how we are not reading the words..and /or just taking whatever meaning we want from it,rather than logically understanding what he wrote. I dont know why it has to keep being mentioned...it is not KR's article per se that I am discussing in my OP's.I realise another thread died and got resurrected here...but I find that discussion pretty useless and uninteresting. Most of you seem to support a self-serving idea of what is being discussed. Jonathan and others keep bringing up a lot of evidence to support their argument...unfortunatley I don't think they understand the argument. They create the conundrum and then follow a logical course of action to correct it,thus seemingly absolving them of being wrong. Sort of like the U.S.'s actions in Iraq.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't see too much to disagree with in your initial post, though I would quibble with a few statements, but clearly the stimulus for your post was Ken's article, and the conversation had swerved into that territory. The nature of threads is that they usually move away from the original post.

" I don't think they understand the argument"

I agree with much that is said by you, Ray, and others, but I disagree with anyone who says it bears any relation to Ken's beliefs as expressed in his article.
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Ray

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« Reply #211 on: April 09, 2008, 06:08:08 pm »

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If you are too thick to understand basic English, that is your problem. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188220\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It would indeed be my problem, and a problem for a few others also. Fortunately, I was able to understand every point you and Jonathan have made in a nanosecond. There's nothing either of you have said that is not obvious to anyone with an IQ over 80. However, I can sometimes find additional meaning beyond the bare-bones meaning of each individual word when I read a text, and I find I'm the richer for it.

Do I have to explain what I mean by richer? I'll give you a hint. I do not necessarily mean I have more money because I can find meaning in a text beyond the basic meaning of each word.
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Ray

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« Reply #212 on: April 09, 2008, 06:37:11 pm »

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Ray has provided absolutely no evidence for his point of view other than "That's what I want it to mean, and I'll stamp my foot and shout until you agree."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't got the time, Jonathan. There are some things you'll just have to find out for yourself. I've spent far too much time in this thread already.

By the way, kittens are not appreciated by wild life conservationists in Australia. A certain percentage of them always seem to escape into the bush and become feral causing great devastation to the indigenous wild life population, especially in times of drought when most creatures congregate around the few remaining waterholes, struggling to survive. A feral cat amongst such a population causes havoc.

Probably more creatures have been made extinct in Australia by grownup kittens than by any climate change resulting from man-made greenhouse gases.
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bernie west

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« Reply #213 on: April 09, 2008, 06:52:50 pm »

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I take it you mean, if I was there at the time, in front of the same scene that Nick shot, in possession of Nick's 'artistic eye' and concept for the photo, could I reproduce the shot he took, using a P&S?

Probably. But I don't like to boast [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188197\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Really?  

Well, I've heard it all.  I hope Nick comes back to put your ego back in it's box.  It's time for me to depart and do some work for a change.  Ciao.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #214 on: April 09, 2008, 07:15:14 pm »

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However, I can sometimes find additional meaning beyond the bare-bones meaning of each individual word when I read a text, and I find I'm the richer for it.

Do I have to explain what I mean by richer? I'll give you a hint. I do not necessarily mean I have more money because I can find meaning in a text beyond the basic meaning of each word.

The problem is that in most cases, such "richer" additional meanings exist only in your mind, and have nothing to do with what the writer either meant or implied. What you are describing is the exact same process of "interpretation" cult leaders use to "discover" new meaning in various holy books and other writings to justify their bizarre teachings. It's how Charles Manson interpreted the lyrics of "Helter Skelter" to justify why his followers should go out and kill people. It's how Jim Jones persuaded his followers and to kill themselves at Jonestown. It's how the Spanish Inquisitors and other nominally Catholic individuals used the Bible to justify torturing and murdering those who disagreed with their religious doctrines. It's how both sides in the Troubles in Ireland justified their acts of murder, and how Islamic extremists use their "interpretation" of the Koran to justify 9/11 and their many other acts of mass murder, suicide bombings, torture, rape, kidnapping, etc. And it's how the FLDS cultists in Texas use the teachings of the Mormon Church justify the practice of forcing multiple underage girls to "marry" middle-aged men and have sex with them.

This discussion has gone far past the point of pointlessness and well into the realm of the absurd. I'm tired of attempting to debate rationally with those who refuse to recognize the basic principles of logic and rational thinking. When you defend the use of a process of interpretation that is based more on what you want something to mean than what the text plainly says it means, and think you can find a "richer" meaning that can completely contradict the obvious meaning of the actual text, you are not ascending to a higher intellectual plane; you are opening yourself to any foolishness and idiocy that can be wrapped in a sufficiently attractive-sounding package of words. I wish you well, but am done wasting my time arguing with you, and am adding you to my ignore list.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 07:17:35 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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mrleonard

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #215 on: April 09, 2008, 07:44:16 pm »

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The problem is that in most cases, such "richer" additional meanings exist only in your mind, and have nothing to do with what the writer either meant or implied. What you are describing is the exact same process of "interpretation" cult leaders use to "discover" new meaning in various holy books and other writings to justify their bizarre teachings. It's how Charles Manson interpreted the lyrics of "Helter Skelter" to justify why his followers should go out and kill people. It's how Jim Jones persuaded his followers and to kill themselves at Jonestown. It's how the Spanish Inquisitors and other nominally Catholic individuals used the Bible to justify torturing and murdering those who disagreed with their religious doctrines. It's how both sides in the Troubles in Ireland justified their acts of murder, and how Islamic extremists use their "interpretation" of the Koran to justify 9/11 and their many other acts of mass murder, suicide bombings, torture, rape, kidnapping, etc. And it's how the FLDS cultists in Texas use the teachings of the Mormon Church justify the practice of forcing multiple underage girls to "marry" middle-aged men and have sex with them.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188309\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You mean like how you read into my OP to say something else completely irrelevant?The startingpoint of this argument was what KR alludes to...not necesarrily what he said verbatim...THIS IS ELEMENTARY!!! But I suppose it is easier for you to just keep going on about whatever it is you're going on about. Your "interpretation" of what I said.Oh...you should've added the US invasion of IRAQ on your list too. ipso facto.
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #216 on: April 09, 2008, 07:48:30 pm »

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I notice the largest print size that Nick offers seem to be around 32" wide.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually the largest size I do is 96"x48". The biggest I have done is 175x60.

[a href=\"http://www.nickrains.com/article4.html]http://www.nickrains.com/article4.html[/url]

I'll happily print up to 30" , maybe 40", with a single Canon 5D image but past that it's either stitch or shoot 6x12 film as I do.

"I take it you mean, if I was there at the time, in front of the same scene that Nick shot, in possession of Nick's 'artistic eye' and concept for the photo, could I reproduce the shot he took, using a P&S?

Probably. But I don't like to boast"

Sure you could 'reproduce the shot', you'd just be very limited on what sizes of prints you could make.

Tell you what, hop on up the the Kimberley and join me on my workshop next week. Just bring your P+S, no need for anything different. I'm quite sure you will be able to get lots of images that satisfy you - it's a hard place not to get great shots.

I teach people how to get the sort of images I shoot, regardless of their gear. If they are happy with the results then so am I. I also teach the limitations of gear - ie it's probably best not to make a 175" print off a P+S if you want to match what I do. However, if that's what you choose to do for your own aesthetic reasons then it's not for me to say otherwise.
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Nick Rains
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Ray

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« Reply #217 on: April 09, 2008, 10:36:01 pm »

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Sure you could 'reproduce the shot', you'd just be very limited on what sizes of prints you could make.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nick,
The first photo I ever sold, that is, got paid for rather than publishing for free, was taken with 35mm film. It was a scene of the Brisbane City centre from Mt Coot-tha. The print was 8ft wide and very detailed; at least as detailed, and I would guess, far more detailed than any single shot taken with an 8x10" field camera.

The lens used was a cheap Tamron zoom. The panorama consisted of 13 vertical images stitched in a row. I sold it to the Brisbane City Council after showing it to Jim Soorley who was then Lord Mayor.

It was printed on the Epson 1200, on Epson roll photopaper and I sure am embarrassed that the print is probably already considerably faded. (Sorry! to whoever has it now.)

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I teach people how to get the sort of images I shoot, regardless of their gear.

That's what I imagined.

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it's probably best not to make a 175" print off a P+S if you want to match what I do.

I agree entirely. Why make things unnecessarily complicated and difficult. But Bernie West threw down a challenge. I continue to be amazed at the ease with which Autopano Pro automatically stitches images, usually flawlessly, including the merging of bracketed shots to HDR in the same process.

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Tell you what, hop on up the the Kimberley and join me on my workshop next week. Just bring your P+S, no need for anything different. I'm quite sure you will be able to get lots of images that satisfy you - it's a hard place not to get great shots.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm tied up with visiting relatives as present. You know I would never just bring a P&S on such a trip   .
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Ray

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« Reply #218 on: April 09, 2008, 10:51:50 pm »

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The problem is that in most cases, such "richer" additional meanings exist only in your mind, and have nothing to do with what the writer either meant or implied. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188309\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Okay! Fair enough! You are more adept at writing nonsense than I am. All meaning exists only in the mind, just as the sensation and experience of color exists only in the mind. Do you think there's meaning out there that grows on trees just waiting to be plucked??

If anyone reads anything and draws an inference, makes an interpretation, right or wrong, what on earth causes you to think that has nothing to do with what the writer meant or implied?

Have you had private conversations with Ken Rockwell who has told you that my interpretation of his article has nothing to do with what he meant or implied?
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mrleonard

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« Reply #219 on: April 09, 2008, 11:20:55 pm »

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Have you had private conversations with Ken Rockwell who has told you that my interpretation of his article has nothing to do with what he meant or implied?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188354\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

LOL...Remember Annie Hall when Woody overheard a discussion  in the movie theatre line...they were discussing Marshall McLuhan ....Woody interjected that they didn't  know what the hell they were talking about, and then produced Marshall McLuhan in the flesh to back him up.

BTW....With what Nick is saying about print sizing is a bit misleading...and the whole pixel  count thing is mostly unimportant (thats right..it doesnt matter). Ive blown up a half-frame slide scan to 40" by 60" and it looks 'effin brilliant. The larger you print the further back the viewer stands. I wonder what the certain ration is to that... size vs. viewing distance. It is entirely relative to it's surroundings and has nothing to do with resolution per se. Unless...like when MR came into my gallery and looked at one of my prints from 6 inches, that sort of detail is somehow of importance to you.
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