3800 is not good for b&w!

[oeleke]

Is there a simple/good way to get nice B&W prints on the 3800, i mean neutral prints?
I tried (wrong i hope) many settings, looked around for the best tips.
Used already diffrent papers, profiles.
But to my eye i never got a dead neutral print, always more greenish.
Is black and white a personal thing, i mean what seems neutral to you is green to me.
I realy hope i'm wrong, shoot me for it, but i must deliver b&w prints, not green or sepia ones.

Thanks raoul.

[digitaldog]

Well the Advanced B&W is one approach.

[madmanchan]

You haven't really elaborated on what you've tried.

What, exactly, have you tried? The more info you provide, the more we can see what's going on ...

[Nick Rains]

Is there a simple/good way to get nice B&W prints on the 3800, i mean neutral prints?
I tried (wrong i hope) many settings, looked around for the best tips.
Used already diffrent papers, profiles.
But to my eye i never got a dead neutral print, always more greenish.
Is black and white a personal thing, i mean what seems neutral to you is green to me.
I realy hope i'm wrong, shoot me for it, but i must deliver b&w prints, not green or sepia ones.

Thanks raoul.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As Andrew says, check out the Advanced B+W facility in the driver. I get excellent results this way

[keith_cooper]

I had a 3800 on loan from Epson for a review and was very impressed with its B/W printing (I might even have got one for some printing but decided I needed a bit larger)

ABW as it comes for Epson papers and ABW with a QTR linearising profile for some others (see the review for info/links etc)

One paper I even tested with the printfix pro (spyderprint) profiling system (with extra greys) it gave a very good B/W output for a colour profile.

With third party papers I found several (supplied) profiles that had been built with incorrect media setting choices - this confirmed several problems I've come across where people have used remote profiling services that didn't seem to grasp the concept of detailed media checks before profiling. Notes on media choice selection

bye for now

Keith Cooper

[duraace]

Is there a simple/good way to get nice B&W prints on the 3800, i mean neutral prints?
I tried (wrong i hope) many settings, looked around for the best tips.
Used already diffrent papers, profiles.
But to my eye i never got a dead neutral print, always more greenish.
Is black and white a personal thing, i mean what seems neutral to you is green to me.
I realy hope i'm wrong, shoot me for it, but i must deliver b&w prints, not green or sepia ones.

Thanks raoul.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Advanced B&W is the only mode that uses only black inks. While that means using printer color managed, you can simultaneously use application color managed using Eric Chans B&W profiles for the 3800.

[madmanchan]

To clarify, the ABW mode actually uses the three black inks K (either PK or MK), LK, LLK, bt also a bit of LC and LM and a wee bit of Y.

M and C are the only ones not used.

[duraace]

To clarify, the ABW mode actually uses the three black inks K (either PK or MK), LK, LLK, bt also a bit of LC and LM and a wee bit of Y.

M and C are the only ones not used.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was quite surprised to find this out (see [a href=\"http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#abwwhichinks)]http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...l#abwwhichinks)[/url].  The Advanced B&W prints look pretty black though.  Are there any printers out there that ONLY use B&W inks?  Advanced B&W produces way blacker prints than printing Greyscale application managed with driver managed off.

[mballent]

I was quite surprised to find this out (see http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...l#abwwhichinks).  The Advanced B&W prints look pretty black though.  Are there any printers out there that ONLY use B&W inks?  Advanced B&W produces way blacker prints than printing Greyscale application managed with driver managed off.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

HPZ3100 I know does... if r=g=b then you will only get some flavr of K and that is it.  No other ink is used.

[neil snape]

ABW should do the trick.
Problem is even though the black inks you would think are black, they are a colour and the colour affects neutrality in the prints. To maintain a deep black , addition of composites like LC, LM and yellow can be used to enhance the Dmax, smoothness of graduations, and reduce gloss differential. The only draw back is increased grey balance failure (often misnamed illuminant metamerism).
The HP Z3100 uses all three or four greys only when a three channel image printed as greyscale, when the images is greyscale, or when all three values of r=g=b or close. This allows AWB type of printing in batch alongside full colour images without a rip.

[abiggs]

I am not a fan of the Advanced Black and White mode, as when I move between different papers the  results vary. It is a moving target on what results I am going to get. I have had excellent results with a well-made custom profile and just sending a normal RGB file, already toned, to the printer. Results are more reliable with the RGB method, but I don't know if the ABW approach will yield a longer lasting print or not.

[keith_cooper]

I am not a fan of the Advanced Black and White mode, as when I move between different papers the  results vary. It is a moving target on what results I am going to get. I have had excellent results with a well-made custom profile and just sending a normal RGB file, already toned, to the printer. Results are more reliable with the RGB method, but I don't know if the ABW approach will yield a longer lasting print or not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not my own experience, but then again I -expect- results to vary between different papers, it's why I use them ;-)  Since I don't ever tone B/W I suspect that may well account for our different perceptions (I get my variations in 'tone' by paper choice)

[abiggs]

I get noticable density shifts between different papers that are supposedly similar. In other words, from Fine Art Pearl to Exhibition Fiber. Yes, these are similar papers with different coatings, but I don't like it when I am dealing with a black box. We know what is going in, and we sort of get what we expect coming out, but we don't really know how it works or what is going on. The variability drives me nuts, and this isn't limited to Epson. Canon also has the black box approach. The crazy thing is that these ABW type methods are not ICC compliant. I cannot soft proof or see what is going on, because the process is a hack. Yes, you can receive good results, and in some instances get much much deeper blacks if you go this route. It is the variability between papers that is my achilles heel.

[madmanchan]

I get noticable density shifts between different papers that are supposedly similar. In other words, from Fine Art Pearl to Exhibition Fiber. Yes, these are similar papers with different coatings, but I don't like it when I am dealing with a black box. We know what is going in, and we sort of get what we expect coming out, but we don't really know how it works or what is going on. The variability drives me nuts, and this isn't limited to Epson. Canon also has the black box approach. The crazy thing is that these ABW type methods are not ICC compliant. I cannot soft proof or see what is going on, because the process is a hack. Yes, you can receive good results, and in some instances get much much deeper blacks if you go this route. It is the variability between papers that is my achilles heel.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is why I have attempted to 'standardize' the ABW method (at least in one dimension) by creating ICC profiles for the 3800 ABW driver:

[a href=\"http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/abwprofiles.html]http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...bwprofiles.html[/url]

These profiles allow one to soft proof, take the density variations out of the equation when moving across different papers (including 3rd-party papers), and allow one to use a similar printing workflow as when printing using the standard RGB driver (i.e., one chooses Photoshop Manages Colors and the appropriate ABW profile from the Printer Profile menu, the main difference being that in the 3800 driver one has to set the Color mode to Advanced B&W Photo, of course).

The main limitation of these profiles is that they correct for density variations only. They say nothing about neutrality. It is possible to have cases on some papers where the distribution of tones is fine but some areas appear non-neutral.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

The main limitation of these profiles is that they correct for density variations only. They say nothing about neutrality. It is possible to have cases on some papers where the distribution of tones is fine but some areas appear non-neutral.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Anybody here who is old enough to remember "darkroom printing" should recall that in the good old days the tone of a print was always affected by both the paper chosen (mainly affecting the highlight color) and the developer chosen (mainly affecting deeper tones). It seems quite natural to me to expect different papers to behave differently when printing B&W. We need to learn the characteristics of our materials, just as in the pre-digital era.

[abiggs]

Anybody here who is old enough to remember "darkroom printing" should recall that in the good old days the tone of a print was always affected by both the paper chosen (mainly affecting the highlight color) and the developer chosen (mainly affecting deeper tones). It seems quite natural to me to expect different papers to behave differently when printing B&W. We need to learn the characteristics of our materials, just as in the pre-digital era.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186109\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree that they will be different, but an ICC compliant workflow will make up for these differences when it comes to expectations for the final print. You should not have huge density shifts between papers if you are in a digital workflow environment. We are not in the darkroom any more, thank God. We now have more control than we ever had in the darkroom, and moving between papers with ABW isn't reliable enough for me or many other photographers that I know. With that being said, if I only printed on one paper I would probably be happy.

[TylerB]

ABW can be standardized across any media, and driver hue settings, including soft proof (including hue) by making single channel profiles using the unique profiler that comes with QTR.
The down side is that additional profiles need to be made for additional driver settings, say a warm one and a cool one, but they are so quick and easy to make it's no big deal. The precise density does seem to vary a bit when those changes are made.

Good color management practices can help us even in niche areas like this. THere are many QTR users, finding someone to make profiles should be no problem, there is a yahoo user group.
An additional benefit is standardized output from any gray working space.

Tyler

[keith_cooper]

I get noticable density shifts between different papers that are supposedly similar....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But these are different papers... so I'd expect things to look different. For non Epson supported papers I'd look at the QTR linearising profile route.

As to Soft Proofing, I just don't do it for B/W.  I make a point of knowing how my own test print will look on a particular paper, and then work from that. As long as the printer o/p is suitably linear (ABW or ABW + QTR) and all the rest of my workflow is sufficiently colour managed, I have my test print as a standard for a particular paper/inks. If I was going to tone things I'd have a set of toned variations of the test print on different papers, so I'd know what each 'felt like'

Whilst there are many excellent uses for soft proofing (I use it regularly for colour work and my commercial photography), it just doesn't enter into it for my B/W printing. The subtleties that make me choose between different papers just aren't remotely close to being shown even in a good soft proof.

Good colour management gives me consistency and good quality output. I like to think it's my artistic choices and knowledge of how an image looks on a particular paper that makes for a good print. I've been asked about B/W printing quite a lot, and I firmly believe that you have to spend a while just printing one known image under different conditions to get a feel for how a particular paper/ink combination works.  Too much reliance of soft proofing in B/W is (IMHO) missing the point that the screen output is just a guide to some aspects the final work.

Although not a fan of toned prints, I'm sure that a lot of the more visually offensive :-) versions I've seen come from a lack of appreciation of the difference between screen and print.

bye for now

Keith Cooper

PS If anyone is interested, then my test print and other B/W related stuff is at [a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html]my digital black and white web pages[/url]

[andylaiphoto]

I calibrated my monitor with an eyeone and made some print profiles with it too.  I've always gotten almost spot on prints.  I was actually amazed at my BWs.  Have you calibrated everything?

[oeleke]

Hi all,

Thanks for all of your replies.
Well over the last weeks i've tried (altough not a lot of time for testing), the abw setting more.
Tried the quad tone rip proflies, epson EEM paper, epson luster paper, hanemule paper, etc.
But i couldnt get a print that was in my opinion neutral black and white (my goal), always the prints have a green cast in them.
My assistent thought i was crazzy, but also now he sees the green cast.
I have made print long time ago on my epson 2100 in the black mode and got 100% neutral b&w prints, no color cast nothing, just black and white.
Now with the more modern 3800 i thought it was more easy to get good results, the same or better then the 2100, but well not yet.

I hope that we all talk about nice neutral photos, i know i can make very nice tones, warm etc, but i am aiming first for nice b&w, then afterwards the toning.

Can there be something wrong with the printer, do i make the wrong steps?
Everytjhing is calibrated, new eizo screen.

Printer hangs on the ethernet.

Is there somewhere otherwise a step by step tutorial to get NEUTRAL prints.

Thanks again for all your nice input, but sorry it doesnt work yet for me, while everybody here tells that with a few simple stemps they get breathtaking prints......


Regards,.

Raoul.