HELP! need to make a dicession by Monday!

[Mark Potter]

I have just recently discovered this forum and it has been a great help reading all the info found here and this is my first post.

As I stated I have to make my decision by Monday as the “March Madness” offers from Epson end the end of this month as most knows so here is my situation.

I am an Graphic Designer / Artist (not a photographer) my work is either photo manipulation or painting with Photoshop and Painter or a combination of the two. I have not done wide format printing before, I did have a Epson 3000 that I was using for commissions but it finally clogged beyond repair and replaced it with an R1800. I was outputting my freelance commissions on the 3000 with good quality but I would like to know move forward with a 24” printer and am having a hard time choosing between the Z3100 and the 7880. I want to be able to provide larger commissions and also to start doing editions of my personal art works so this is what I am look at...

Print quality wise from what I read is that basically they are comparable and to be honest for my work and pricing I fell either will achieve the result that I want.

7880 - I looked at doing this a while back when this printer was a 7600 and see that improvements have been made make this a better model and it is my understanding that this printer is/was the top-shelf printer for archival fine art printing as I want to do. My understanding is the two biggest complaints are the nozzles clogging (as in my 3000) and the switching of the matte/photo black. Now the switching issue as I always output onto matte papers but it would be nice to be able to offer glossy printing to local photographers as a secondary income to local photographers but it’s matte that I always work with in my studio.

Z3100  - I am reading that this printer is the latest technology in archival fine art printing and is really good for individuals like me who would have just this printer as it is set-up to make it’s own profiles and such but I am also reading that us Mac guys are having a lot of problems as the printer is really more PC friendly than Mac ( In my studio I have two Mac running OS 10.4 and one running the new 10.5+ Leopard.

From my understanding the run down is basically this...

7880 - Workhorse, established drivers and profiles that are easy to get, print heads clogging issues when not in constant use, large user base but that you need more hands on and experience in large format printing to really make use of  with lots of information for this printer - I have neither knowledge or experience, the results from my 3000 where straight prints from Photoshop

Z3100 - New technology, changeable heads, lower cost inks and papers. But this is a 12 ink system so it cost more to re-ink this printer than an 8 ink system so I question the lower cost ink if you have to busy more ink? Onboard ability to make profiles something I have never done or have a clue about? My usage will be random with possibly only being used 1-2 times a month or less at least to start but having the printer sit unused for periods at a time will take place and I believe that’s what killed my 3000 and I read that this printer is geared more for this where the Epson needs to be used more often?

I understand that whatever I choose that this will be a learning process and I have said myself “ owning paints and brushes does not make anyone an artist” so I have a lot to learn but I also don’t want to get something that I’ll be fighting with every time I go to use it.

Wife says to bite the bullet and get the Z3100 as it sounds like it will be an easier printer to operate with a lower learning curve and uses the newer technology and has the serviceable heads. My budget says to get the 7880 at a $700 savings over the Z3100 with the current sales and rebates from Epson?

Any information and advice would be of great help!

[hubicka]

Hi,
concerning the Mac friendliness of HP Z3100, we are running this printer and printing from both Mac (10.3) and Windows (XP/Vista) and I would say that Mac is causing less trouble. Functionality is pretty much the same on both systems.

And despite troubles with roller marks update I quite love the printer, especially the results.  It might be less plug&play than Epsons in some cases, but I don't have first hand experience with those, just used to print on them in the printshops.

Honza

[Roscolo]

Z3100 - New technology, changeable heads, lower cost inks and papers. But this is a 12 ink system so it cost more to re-ink this printer than an 8 ink system so I question the lower cost ink if you have to busy more ink? Onboard ability to make profiles something I have never done or have a clue about? My usage will be random with possibly only being used 1-2 times a month or less at least to start but having the printer sit unused for periods at a time will take place and I believe that’s what killed my 3000 and I read that this printer is geared more for this where the Epson needs to be used more often?

I understand that whatever I choose that this will be a learning process and I have said myself “ owning paints and brushes does not make anyone an artist” so I have a lot to learn but I also don’t want to get something that I’ll be fighting with every time I go to use it.

Wife says to bite the bullet and get the Z3100 as it sounds like it will be an easier printer to operate with a lower learning curve and uses the newer technology and has the serviceable heads.
Any information and advice would be of great help!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ink for the z3100 does not cost more. In fact, it's less because it wastes less ink than the Epson. 8 or 12 ink carts make no difference in cost. What matters is the ink used per square area of paper, and users who used / have used both report z3100 uses less and wastes less in cleaning. That said, both printers will work for your needs.

There are a few advantages for the z3100. Ease of use - take it out of the box, set it up, it will profile a paper for you (literally push 1 button), and there you go - if your monitor is calibrated your very first prints will be spot on or at least mine were. The z3100 produces the finest B&W prints I've seen from any inkjet ever - indistinguishable from darkroom prints. You are aware there is no switching of black inks - probably Epson's biggest mistake ever. And built in profiling is the biggest time / money saver of all for me. I would listen to the wife on this one...good luck...have fun!

[Edhopkins]

Z3100  - I am reading that this printer is the latest technology in archival fine art printing and is really good for individuals like me who would have just this printer as it is set-up to make it’s own profiles and such but I am also reading that us Mac guys are having a lot of problems as the printer is really more PC friendly than Mac ( In my studio I have two Mac running OS 10.4 and one running the new 10.5+ Leopard.



We run mac and got the z3100ps Gp (With the APS) (44").  HP has not given us drivers or a new version of the APS to run with Leopard. But we are running with 10.4.  I know of no Mac problems.  We got the thing, cranked up photoshop, uprezed and sharpened and got a great print with our first try. If there are mac specific problems, I don't know about them. My wife and I love the printer.  We are getting better prints out of the z3100 now but the changes have all been at the Photoshop level.

I only had software trouble once when I upgraded to Leopard when it came out without checking to see whether the drivers and the APS were compatible. Never again!

I maintain a  section in the Wiki on the z3100 for the Mac and the z3100ps Gp.

Ed Hopkins

[neil snape]

Both are 24" pigment printers.
Where the advantages for you might be certain features, for others they may not be interesting at all.

From what artists I have met, the best thing about a Z printer in the APS/PS model, PS being an embedded Adobe Postscript RIP at a very high level so printing vector work is a very simple thing to do.
It does this accepting files in rgb or CMYK in turn always using rgb to the printer. Since you create your own profiles , this is easy to apply to your art work reaching the full gamut for vector and or paint artwork. You can do this with an external rip but it's so easy to do as an embedded rip.

I don't know why or where problem reports are stronger in your findings for Mac. All the testing I did showed more problems on PC. I found very few problems with the Mac drivers throughout testing.

As far as turning the printers off. Both risk clogging if the period allows drying of the heads. Epson usually fire up with a simple cap and wipe and are ready again. The idea of HP is if you leave the printer on, there is a background daily head maintenance which keeps the heads in their optimal running state. IF you leave the printer on you'll likely never have a clog, but if you turn it off, that will put you at risk.

The HP can be slightly better at ink volume required per print but if you're not printing much it isn't something for you to worry about. The printer isn't going to use all 12 inks at any time, so the output coverage is not proportional to the number of available inks.

I would like to assume the HP is a platform that will continue to be built upon where as Epson don't have any upgrade path.
On image quality there are plus and minuses for both. Epson will outperform HP and Canon on matte. HP and Canon will outperform Epson on some images on Satin/pearl, and HP will outdo all on glossy.
Epson will be a good choice, the HP too. If you think about the PS side of the HP it may let you print artwork with an incredible ease of use, meanwhile have a repeatability for reprints that is above par.

[neil snape]

Ooops, I forgot to say, yes run on Tiger as Leopard is still iffy for all printers including Epson.
It won't be long before all the bugs are worked out from Apple, Adobe, and their respective printer driver.

[Mark Potter]

Epson will be a good choice, the HP too. If you think about the PS side of the HP it may let you print artwork with an incredible ease of use, meanwhile have a repeatability for reprints that is above par.
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Wow glad to see responses so soon! thanks.

So I from what I read it's the Mac OS 10.5+ that hp AND Epson are having issues and with not the 10.4 system. I do have a 10.4 system that I could set up as the print server untill the 10.5 issue is fixed.

As far as quality you are saying that the HP's out put of matte ( my preferred paper choice) the HP is the lest quality? Not knowing the quality of the matte output on the HP do you feel I should not consider the HP for this since I am wanting to do all matte printing?

[Mark Potter]

I maintain a  section in the Wiki on the z3100 for the Mac and the z3100ps Gp.

Ed Hopkins
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185010\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ed, thanks for the info. I'm really don't know what a "wiki" is but I'll try and find out to see what your additional information is.

thanks again.

[Edhopkins]

Ed, thanks for the info. I'm really don't know what a "wiki" is but I'll try and find out to see what your additional information is.

thanks again.
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Fo the Wiki go here:

[a href=\"http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/]http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/[/url]

Lots of good information here.  (I maintain one of these pages only.)

And I find the Yahoo wide inkjet printer very useful for the Z3100:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Luminous Landscape, the Wiki on the "Z" and the Yahoo:  These are my three main resources for the "Z". Very knowledgeable and helpful people hang out here.  

(How would we do all of this without the internet?)

Good luck!

Ed

[Geoff Wittig]

Wow glad to see responses so soon! thanks.

So I from what I read it's the Mac OS 10.5+ that hp AND Epson are having issues and with not the 10.4 system. I do have a 10.4 system that I could set up as the print server untill the 10.5 issue is fixed.

As far as quality you are saying that the HP's out put of matte ( my preferred paper choice) the HP is the lest quality? Not knowing the quality of the matte output on the HP do you feel I should not consider the HP for this since I am wanting to do all matte printing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185020\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would not agree that the HP's output on matte paper is "the least in quality". It depends on what your work is like and how you use it. The Z3100 has the best black D-max of any pigment printer on matte paper, visibly darker than the Epson. It also has better saturation in blues/greens, particularly lighter tones. The Epson definitely has the advantage in red/orange saturation, particularly in the darker portion of the gamut. Finally, if you use the fine art >250 gm preset, the Z3100 is a genuine quad-black printer right out of the box. Its black & white printing mode is more sophisticated than Epson's, and its black & white output quality is distinctly better.

[joncanfield]

Ed-

There is an update to APS for Leopard. You can download here:http://www.giainteractive.com/aps/EN/update.html

It's been working fine for me.

Jon

[neil snape]

Wow glad to see responses so soon! thanks.

So I from what I read it's the Mac OS 10.5+ that hp AND Epson are having issues and with not the 10.4 system. I do have a 10.4 system that I could set up as the print server untill the 10.5 issue is fixed.

As far as quality you are saying that the HP's out put of matte ( my preferred paper choice) the HP is the lest quality? Not knowing the quality of the matte output on the HP do you feel I should not consider the HP for this since I am wanting to do all matte printing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185020\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As Geoff said, There are certain aspects which could be better on one or the other. B&W on the Z is going to be 4 blacks, and the black inks are as Geoff said, a very strong black with nice gradients all the way through. The darker regions of the saturated colours is stronger on Epson on all matte papers but I won't go so far as to say that reds are always better or not. The HP pigments need a more coated paper like Enhanced matte, or the really nice optimised HP/Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art. IF you use matte paper with a bright or slightly smooth surface, You'll be surprised to know that both printers on most images will come out quite similar, thus you can't say which is better or worse.
What matte papers the HP nor Canon do well on (colour printing that is) is very textured and relatively uncoated papers like Photo Rag or other cotton rag media. It's not that the results in colour won't be pleasing, but compared to the Epson in this particular set up will be lesser in IQ.
Any problems there might be in Leopard are tied to the op sys, printing apps, and the drivers. As far as I know there are slight colour differences between certain applications caused by , you guessed it> everyone finger pointing. Yet somehow they are or have fixed almost everything outstanding with the most recent updates, Apple, Adobe , and the drivers.

[Edhopkins]

Ed-

There is an update to APS for Leopard. You can download here:http://www.giainteractive.com/aps/EN/update.html

It's been working fine for me.

Jon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jon

I looked at the location you pointed me to. There is a new version of the APS for the z3100ps BUT it specifically excludes Mac OS 10.5.x. So the web site says it does not work for Leopard.  

You downloaded it anyhow and found it worked???  Did you contact tech support or something before doing this or just take a chance.  I know HP has a terrible web site, but you would not think that a new version of the APS designed explicitly for Leopard would say that it does not work on Leopard...

so...

Ed

[silverhalide]

Mark, Here is my take on it. I am at a point where I need to replace my  Mac powered 7600 & ImagePrint 6 RIP color output device as I need to be using the newer inks & I would enjoy a touch greater D-Max. The paper that I am moving to is on the list, "Fine Art Smooth" from Fine Art Rough. Making B&W "profles", linerizations, with an iOne on the PC with StudioPrint 12 & K7 inks on a much newer 7600 I can personally say I wouldn't want to make my own color profiles vs the profiles from ColorByte. I will have to  upgrade to IP7 as I have a registered hardware key & wouldn't print without it. I really like IP a lot. I have had it dialed into my workflow for several years of printing on one paper after sampeling a lot of different papers. I like the way you can make curve & color corrections & then name & save that correction to refine a print without disturbing the pixels in the original PhotoShop TIF file. I have rarely needed to use it but it works well. As far as the accuracy of the profiles, I recently became paranoid (I got over it) about OB's in paper & tried a roll of Museo Max downloading the tungsten profile. The print looked identical to the same piece on Fine Art Smooth in color balance, dynamic range & curve. It was just when the two papers touched or overlaped that you could see the very slight warm tone in the Epson Fine Art as the two papers have what appears to be the same brightness level under 3200 K gallery lighting. I have to admit it is cool that the Museo Max can be that bright without any OBs but find it a little pricey @ $190 for a 40' roll. Please realize this is all totally subjective.

So Monday will find me on the phone to Calumet . . .

Michael
     
ps, the clogging has pretty much become a non issue after running a humidifier @ 50% for several months even though I do not use it every day. I can leave it off for a couple of weeks, do a couple of cleaning cycles & color test & it is ready to go.

[stevenh]

I have been running my Z3100 from both a PC (not vista) and from a Mac OS 10.4.1

Haven't had any real problems from either. My PC CS3 Photoshop will crash as it spools to print with large sized files but this is a RAM issue for now (and I need to reinstall CS3.)

[dseelig]

One other thing to mention HP according to Wilheim has the longest life prints. I am happy with my pruchase so far of the z 3100 if price is a diffference contact inkjetart.com they have a good deal going and or do a price check on cnet. HP does pay off the rebates where they have one going now . David