Hy6 Users here?

[ynp]

The Russian Rollei dealer sold me a Rollei flex Hy6 with a Sinar unrevolving adapter and a 45 degree viewfinder. The body works with my eMotion 54lv just fine. The body is 15% less expensive here in Russia than the Sinar offer.
Yevgeny

[Lawrie_Hope]

There is a pretty good review on the AFi here:

http://www.peartreephoto.com/news.php?suba...rt_from=&ucat=&

[LightMiner]

Yair and Thierry,

I work in database software and note that there are many high-end database and datawarehouse packages - some that will cost over 100,000.  It is difficult for academia and younger people to learn these technologies because of the price - it creates a very exclusive club for those that know how to run them.  Recently, because of pressure from open source db software, Oracle for example, finally released an almost-free version of their db software that can run on one processor only.  I applaud them for this and think it is awesome.  That makes a huge difference in the number of people who can learn and later recommend their systems to employers.  And the software can be used in low-intensity systems, helping unify an IT shop around one database without killing their budget.

So - to apply this to the Hy6.  First, I am really glad that the Rollei system will be continued as I think it is the most complete MF system in existence, even compared to Contax 645 in its day.  That said, I'm a Mamiya user on a cost basis.  And, (oh my gosh!) I'm a film user!  So my whole system is comparitively very inexpensive, and as I am a nature photographer I have a different process than people who need to provide 200 proofs on the internet every 3rd weekend after a wedding they shot.  I drum scan negatives, and couldn't be happier with Velvia 50 and Pro160C.  Okay - sorry - I digress a bit, but I want you to know where I'm coming from.

Here is the thing, the first is acheivable and the 2nd I'm not sure about.  First: 5k per average lense is a LOT.  Make 3 or 4 lenses, lets say 45, 80, 120, 200, and maybe 1 zoom, 75 - 200, that are $900 each (zoom can be a bit more, lets say 1400).  Note that Schneider, in the large format business, did have more than one line and had some more 'entry level' glass along with their most advanced designs.  Maybe even have another company make them, have Zeiss outsource with the Japanese company they use for the ZF lenses, for example.  Something.  This allows people to get a camera and the 3 or 4 lenses for a decent price.

If that were the case, they would sell soooooo many more in terms of units.  And all of those people would stay up late at night wanting to upgrade their lenses, until one day they would - so it would benefit the lense makers.

And here is the part for Yair and Thierry - same thing with the MFDBs.  What if there were a 12 megapixel 75 or 80% coverage back that were 3 or 5k American?  Sort of like the Mamiya back, but even more extreme in its value proposition?  I'll be they would sell like hotcakes.  It would open MF and MFDB in this case to advanced amateurs and hobbyists, those could be bought for backup backs, etc.  The whole HY6 system would possibly triple or quadruple.  As it is, at 5k per lense and 20k or whatever per mfdb this is an extremely small club to belong to.  Do what people are saying above, only give super-limited tethered shooting software and, heck provide Photoshop Elements.  That would be fine.  Someone who is really serious can buy Photoshop on their own.  Elements is pretty powerful ...

Note that this would also help spread R&D and manu costs across a larger audience for the body of the camera itself and the advantages there would also be huge.  The body cost could come down due to larger production runs - everyone wins!

I really, really think there is a huge market for a 3k or 5k relatively-low-MP back.......  Huge!

Thanks,

LightMiner
http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner

[yaya]

Yair and Thierry,

I work in database software and note that there are many high-end database and datawarehouse packages - some that will cost over 100,000.  It is difficult for academia and younger people to learn these technologies because of the price - it creates a very exclusive club for those that know how to run them.  Recently, because of pressure from open source db software, Oracle for example, finally released an almost-free version of their db software that can run on one processor only.  I applaud them for this and think it is awesome.  That makes a huge difference in the number of people who can learn and later recommend their systems to employers.  And the software can be used in low-intensity systems, helping unify an IT shop around one database without killing their budget.

So - to apply this to the Hy6.  First, I am really glad that the Rollei system will be continued as I think it is the most complete MF system in existence, even compared to Contax 645 in its day.  That said, I'm a Mamiya user on a cost basis.  And, (oh my gosh!) I'm a film user!  So my whole system is comparitively very inexpensive, and as I am a nature photographer I have a different process than people who need to provide 200 proofs on the internet every 3rd weekend after a wedding they shot.  I drum scan negatives, and couldn't be happier with Velvia 50 and Pro160C.  Okay - sorry - I digress a bit, but I want you to know where I'm coming from.

Here is the thing, the first is acheivable and the 2nd I'm not sure about.  First: 5k per average lense is a LOT.  Make 3 or 4 lenses, lets say 45, 80, 120, 200, and maybe 1 zoom, 75 - 200, that are $900 each (zoom can be a bit more, lets say 1400).  Note that Schneider, in the large format business, did have more than one line and had some more 'entry level' glass along with their most advanced designs.  Maybe even have another company make them, have Zeiss outsource with the Japanese company they use for the ZF lenses, for example.  Something.  This allows people to get a camera and the 3 or 4 lenses for a decent price.

If that were the case, they would sell soooooo many more in terms of units.  And all of those people would stay up late at night wanting to upgrade their lenses, until one day they would - so it would benefit the lense makers.

And here is the part for Yair and Thierry - same thing with the MFDBs.  What if there were a 12 megapixel 75 or 80% coverage back that were 3 or 5k American?  Sort of like the Mamiya back, but even more extreme in its value proposition?  I'll be they would sell like hotcakes.  It would open MF and MFDB in this case to advanced amateurs and hobbyists, those could be bought for backup backs, etc.  The whole HY6 system would possibly triple or quadruple.  As it is, at 5k per lense and 20k or whatever per mfdb this is an extremely small club to belong to.  Do what people are saying above, only give super-limited tethered shooting software and, heck provide Photoshop Elements.  That would be fine.  Someone who is really serious can buy Photoshop on their own.  Elements is pretty powerful ...

Note that this would also help spread R&D and manu costs across a larger audience for the body of the camera itself and the advantages there would also be huge.  The body cost could come down due to larger production runs - everyone wins!

I really, really think there is a huge market for a 3k or 5k relatively-low-MP back.......  Huge!

Thanks,

LightMiner
http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner

Dear LightMiner,

based on today's technology, R&D and manufacturing capabilities, a 5K 12MP digital back will mean a few thousands of dollars loss to any manufacturer who looks at such a proposition.

One can buy a 2nd hand or a refurbished 22MP back for not more than 5K, mostly less actually, yet there are allot more 21-25MP 35mm cameras being sold to the market you have mentioned as a target in the same price range.

Nice images of the Bahai temple in Haifa BTW

Yair

[Gigi]

back in the late 1980's and early 1990's Rollei tried something like this strategy:

- they had a bunch of glass made in the far east, for much less than the German made glass
- they made a lesser model - the 6002 instead of the 6006, and the 6003 less than the the 6008
- finally, they tried the 6001, which was a 6008 stripped out of electronics, altho I don't know that it was made for economy.

A modest entry point into the Rollei system was when the 6003 with lens, complete, was priced at about $3k, c. 1992.

It seems that the cost of labor and the small production runs just don't make this possible for them. The current European model (Leica, Sinar, Rollei) is small production, long life, and unfortunately high cost. One that seems to breakout of this is Zeiss, who have both quality and volume on their side, and resultantly, more reasonably priced products.

The future seems to be a slow walk down the path of reduced pricing, but no breakthroughs in approaching the market with simpler, modestly priced product. So for those of us looking for value, the used market is where to look.

[Carsten W]

It seems that the cost of labor and the small production runs just don't make this possible for them. The current European model (Leica, Sinar, Rollei) is small production, long life, and unfortunately high cost. One that seems to breakout of this is Zeiss, who have both quality and volume on their side, and resultantly, more reasonably priced products.

Even Zeiss with their new models have some issues which didn't exist back then, like the CA and not quite razor-sharp corners inherent to some of the new designs. The new Zeiss ZF etc. lenses compare very well to most Canons and so on, but not necessarily to the older Contax lenses. One or two might make it as modern classics... Apparently it just takes a certain amount of money to *consistently* make top lenses and cameras.

[thsinar]

Dear LightMiner,

I can second every word from Yair: it is simply not viable and a loss of a few thousands of $ for manufacturers of DBs. It's probably not even possible to produce such a back at this price, even if we talk about a smaller sensor with less resolution.

Best regards,
Thierry

[LightMiner]

Dear LightMiner,

I can second every word from Yair: it is simply not viable and a loss of a few thousands of $ for manufacturers of DBs. It's probably not even possible to produce such a back at this price, even if we talk about a smaller sensor with less resolution.

Best regards,
Thierry

Yes, interesting - thanks for the comments everyone.  I did some more research and digital back price seems correlated mostly to sq cm, not MP (until you get into super-high MPs)...  So reducing MPs doesn't help, I was thinking it was more correlated to MP.

Everyone's comments make sense - man all I can say is that this Hy6 is quite the exclusive club!  Doesn't mean anyone is doing anything particularly wrong or that it shouldn't be, just reflecting on it...  Maybe in 3 - 5 years if not lenses a back at least will naturally hit 5k from phase/leaf/sinar with tech progressing the way it does.  Mamiya already hit 7k with a somehwat compromised back.  (I've heard it can't be used on LF or Horseman/Alpa tech cameras, and its 14-bit, not 16 bit, etc.)  And like people said the lenses can perhaps be had at reduced prices used, and that would create a 10/12k starter pack kind of thing I am thinking of.

Thanks!

LightMiner
http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner