We're here James...or at least I am...
I just see this discussion going nowhere and what Thierry is going through now...well you know I've been there a few times before already - in public and in person and would rather not come across as one that repeats himself over and over again.
RED shows a lot of promise, but the proof, as we know (too well I'm afraid), will have to be in the pudding...I wish them only well, though.
Yair
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Yair,
I think your right, this is the discussion from years ago and Theirry is also right that most of the conversation here is constructive rather than destructive.
The upside from a few years ago is we see much more maturity in digital backs and some better dealings on price. There are now more in the market and this has given more options.
We also see much, much better software from the manufacturers both proprietary and 3rd party.
That's a huge leap from two years ago.
Also I think it should be clear that for the people that rely on this equipment to earn a living, it's a big decision and there is a lot of trepidation in deciding on which system would be best for them.
I do think more information on a website would be a good start.
I also understand that the dealers are relied upon for a lot of what you see on the Red site. Storage, computers, monitors, and accessories and knowing Steve and Dave I can see where in most cases if you have questions or issues you would never have to call a manufacturer, as that is part of their service.
Still, my reason for showing the Red site was not to sell video cameras, but to get across how much easier it is to first go on a companies site, get all the information you need and then start making inquiries.
Yair, yes your are right again about the Red and the proof in the final product. I've been interested in this camera for some time and though I am still a little ambivalent as to what you do with 4k moving digital files, I have already heard word that it's great, where the next person says it just looks like any digital video, so just as in the still world, the video world has a lot of personal opinion and cross information.
I think we all know that this forum is the only public forum that comes close to offering medium format and professional discussion so given that it's public, the positive will come with the negative.
Still, as a lot of this conversation is almost identical to the RG days, it does make me wonder as of why after 2 years, many people still have the same questions and concerns?
Let's take the AFI on Leaf's site for example and compare it to the RED site.
They are both new and somewhat ground breaking cameras. They both have a lot of options and they both require a huge money and time investment from their users, especially their new users coming from film.
On the Red site in about 15 minutes you can pretty much price out everything you need to mount the camera on a stand and start working and yes there are some hidden costs and yes, that $17,500 will quickly become $30,000 if your not careful, but there is still real information on what it takes to buy, use, and hopefully make art and commerce with the camera.
Looking at the Leaf AFI site at least I see real information about what new and legacy lenses work on the camera, but there is no real comprehensive area that shows how an AFI back works with an Alpa, (or any technical camera) and what rollei lenses will attach, what wider lenses are needed and in other words how to interactively build your system on the web with a one button push to get prices, or even a dealer quote, much less real world availability.
I will stress this point again, there are some good dealers out there and Steve with PPR and Dave with Capture Integration I know personally so I know they will give you real world help, but I also know a whole list of photographers that attempt to buy from other sources, or have been turned off by dealers just because the calls weren't returned, the initial bid was over the top or the information was just flat wrong.
In fact I know photographers that know these two dealers personally, but still buy from others, just because the price is lowballed by some dealer that has an oversupply of stock, so I think this illustrates how important price is to most people.
In the last month I know I have had contact with 5 photographers that have cash in hand to buy a medium format system (or upgrade to one of the new cameras) and to a person only one has purchased a medium format back, though all have bought something new from Canon or Nikon.
Just because medium format relies on the dealer system, doesn't mean they shouldn't up their game on offering an easier way to price and buy. How difficult is it to put a build your own section of the site with a click that goes to a dealer for a quote? then again your making the leap of faith that the dealer will actually respond.
Last week I needed a new battery charger for my Phase and rather than call Dave and bug him on such a small item, I thought I would pick one up locally and called the largest Phase dealer in the country. Rather than just give a credit card and have it delivered by messenger, they wanted credit information faxed, copy of my driver's license and included shipping costs to their store!
All for a bloody battery charger, which makes me wonder what the conversation would be if I just called out of the blue and asked what a complete system, (including lenses), would cost.
It also makes me wonder that if they don't have a battery charger, what happens if I need something even more substainial.
Don't think this doesn't run off a lot of customers.
If medium format continues to charge premium prices, then they need to insure they and their dealers offer premium service and information.
Yair, your right, these are the same discussions of the past, but the reason doesn't come from the buyer's or the people on this forum, just wanting to here themselves talk, i's because medium format still is not giving all the answers in public.
JR
P.S. I'd like to concure with Steve and add this is the place for open discourse. Just because an issue is made public, doesn't make it any more or less valid and yes, the web has a lot of wrong information, but that's what an open forum can offer Yair, Theirry, Steve, Chris, etc. (and the rest of the professonals) a venue to get the record straight, or better yet address the issues.
