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Author Topic: Hy6 Users here?  (Read 63975 times)

thsinar

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« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2008, 05:27:40 am »

Billy,

Yes, it does have black color, definitively, actually called anthracite (the same as the Sinar Hy6). We have no blue/grey color for this finder.

Best regards,
Thierry

Edited for addendum: By the way, the Schneider 50mm AFD for the Sinar Hy6 has been released today and is available from stock.

Quote
Thierry,
Will it have changed to black color by May from the current ugly blue grey?
[attachment=5831:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 05:45:06 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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yaya

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« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2008, 05:48:29 am »

Quote
Ok Yair, you asked for it. Here is what a local dealer and distributor does in a LATIN country:

- a local distributor does not order an accessory until his order batch goes out. He will only get it when his order batch comes in.

- A local distributor does not phone back if a dealer calls him when a back is broken. If the photographer has to go out on a shoot that's just too bad.

- The local dealer may be unhappy that his client has a broken back; but he will never go with a client and demand repair, he will prefer to lose a client  rather than annoy the distributor because the distributor has so much power.

- The local distributor will not lend backs out to replace units tha are broken, if he can help it: He is using those same units as $50 a day rentals, as demos, and for his "friends".

- in Latin contries, the code is that all "friends" and "well-known photographers" get their loaners for free for their tests and only pay for their client jobs. Anyone less-known or who doesn't throw parties with models will have to pay in full for a rental, and can wait until hell freezes over for a replacement unit in case of repair.

- a local dealer does not have training to do simple repairs eg. shim a back, but he still does them. Yet another reason why a client gets non-functional equipment.

- A local dealer will sell broken equipment as new to another client after one client returns it.

- A local dealer and distributor together get about 40% of the final price. Their real argument to their clients is "we PERMIT you to get a back. As we're exclusive, if you buy elsewhere or IF YOU ARE NOT NICE TO US  we'll make sure you never get  a new back on time, and make sure you'll never get a repair."

- The internet does alter the point above a bit. This makes the locals very unhappy.

 Red have the best distribution model - anything that goes wrong is clearly their bad, anything that goes right is their good.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sounds like you have had bad experience with your kit and the way it has been dealt by your dealer and the distributor in your LATIN country  

I can only speak for Leaf here as I've been dealing with LATIN countries for a few years now

In EAMER, AP, Japan and Latin America countries we do not have a chained channel, meaning that the person you buy the kit from deals directly with Leaf and not via a distributor.

More than 50% of our dealers are trained to a level that allows them to handle 80% or repair cases, basically anything that doesn't require a sensor being replaced. The backs are designed with this in mind and these people can replace the whole electronics package within a few hours and have it all re-tested and re-calibrated "while-you-wait".

In US the channel is quite different but the MAC group and Leaf America are doing a great job in taking care of support and service nation-wide. They also take care of repairs states-side.

I understand your frustration about "their bad" but still what do they do when you're on set on location and the software crashes or the camera won't boot up? Who do you call? Mon-Fri 8am-5pm Pacific doesn't cover a lot of grounds for outside-US customers...

Yair
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eronald

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« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2008, 06:16:19 am »

Yair,

 You have a point about the Red problems if one breaks, but I guess people buy two of them and they can drop ship a replacement for a failure.

 If a back crashes over here, I guess if shouting makes one feel better one can call the channel, but in practice a 5D is a more effective solution.

 And then, once a piece of equipment gets established, there's always the rental pool.


Edmund
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 06:35:02 am by eronald »
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BJNY

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« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2008, 08:11:34 am »

So, the 45º prism's exterior will change from the current ugly blue grey seen in my attachment to anthracite by May timeframe?

[attachment=5831:attachment]

Great that all the pieces are falling into place, from the revolving interface plate to the 50mm AFD lens to the eXposure software tomorrow.  Only the 90º finder remains by the end of April?  How about the little things like short & long electronic cable releases when one doesn't want to fire the camera from the software/computer?

Quote
Billy,

Yes, it does have black color, definitively, actually called anthracite (the same as the Sinar Hy6). We have no blue/grey color for this finder.

Best regards,
Thierry

Edited for addendum: By the way, the Schneider 50mm AFD for the Sinar Hy6 has been released today and is available from stock.
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Guillermo

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« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2008, 10:11:57 am »

Yair,

I am about to recieve my Leaf AFi7 w/ 45 degree prism finder in a weeks time.

I sure hope that it does not look like the one above? If so it will be returned as soon as the black one becomes available. Only a cosmetic difference, but still important enough for me to return the item.

Regards,

Rune Molnes
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thsinar

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« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2008, 10:16:11 am »

Billy,

I don't know if the 45° finder will change, but the Sinar one was not yet available and may be what you have seen was a prototype: I was told that we don't have had any "blue-grey" and that our is anthracite and matching the color of the Sinar Hy6.

Yes, the 90° is available by end of April.

Best regards,
Thierry

Edited for addendum:

Yes, a release cable is planed, but I don't have any ETA yet.

Quote
So, the 45º prism's exterior will change from the current ugly blue grey seen in my attachment to anthracite by May timeframe?

[attachment=5831:attachment]

Great that all the pieces are falling into place, from the revolving interface plate to the 50mm AFD lens to the eXposure software tomorrow.  Only the 90º finder remains by the end of April?  How about the little things like short & long electronic cable releases when one doesn't want to fire the camera from the software/computer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 10:47:34 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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James R Russell

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« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2008, 11:55:03 am »

Quote
James, you are bringing up some very valid points about having more info available on the web.

However there is a world of difference between selling a camera system online in US only (or to put it bluntly, TRYING to sell a camera system online), and selling through a chain of more than 100 qualified dealers world-wide, in local currencies, local languages etc.

A local dealer knows the market better than the manufacturer will ever be able to, in terms of specific needs, trends, economics and so on.
A local dealer can come to your studio to demonstrate the product, leave you with a copy of the software and with raw files, a quote and a phone number
A local dealer can lend you a camera, or let you rent one for a shoot, to try it out
A local dealer can come in when something breaks down, be it the back, the camera , the computer or the software
A local dealer can offer a back-up or a loan unit while your camera goes in for repair
A local dealer can pick up the phone on Saturday night while you're in a middle of a shoot to try and work out a problem with the kit
A local dealer can sell you a Mac, a monitor, a bag, CF cards, spare cables etc. and maybe offer you a discount since you're buying a bundle.

On top of that, we offer trade-ins and refurb facilities, as well as extended warranties...again in the local language+currency.
We also have specific pricing policies for schools and rentals that involve with installations and training seminars.
We do try to use as many "standard" items as possible. So if you need an extra charger, cable or battery, you are able to buy them online anywhere, most likely cheaper and whenever, wherever you need them.
I guess you can understand what I am trying to say. The web is a wonderful tool for many things, but unfortunately (or fortunately, pick your side...) there are many things it is still not so great at...

Saying that, I fully agree that there's room for improvement and if you you've been following our site for the last 1-2 years, I believe that you've seen the changes taking place. There's definitely room for improvement on the dealers part as well, which we constantly work on.

Thanks

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yair,

It really doesn't matter to me how any company sells there cameras, but don't think for a moment that there isn't a need for more cohesive and accurate information from the makers of these products.

The goodness or useability of the Red really has nothing to do with what I showed for comparision, but the goodness and useability of thier website does set a standard for how a manufacturer can get information out.

We've had this disucssion before, but I suggest any manufacturer get a Yahoo account with a fake name like Zsar Guidonoria Photography and send a comprehensive e-mail out for price quotes, delivery times and exact availability of product and do this with every dealer and see what the response is.

Then once you take delivery of the product, make an emergency call to the dealer at 4:55pm and say my screen has red pixelated blobs on it and see what the response is.

I think the results will suprise you and not in a good way.

There are some good dealers, (mostly in Atlanta), but being local usualy means nothing unless your in NY and even then the local thing just usually means the price is higher because the dealer assumes your in his/her territory and have no other options.

Whether I call Atlanta, Boston, or Iceland for information or a  fix really changes nothing in my world as I (and many others)  spend half our lives somewhere else anyway.

The fact that Leaf works with schools or gives priority to rental may be good for Leaf (or any manufacturer) but does little  for the individual buyer, unless they are a photographer whos kid goes to Art Center and they rent all thier backups from a dealer.

JR
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 11:58:59 am by James R Russell »
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eronald

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« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2008, 12:09:26 pm »

James,

 Mystery shopper. Very good idea.

 The trouble is these guys will take the idea seriously to hammer the poor bastards on pricing policy, rater than to bring them up to standards on tech ability and service.

 By the way here is what a *model* remarked in German at Photokina when I talked about Hassy's prices being too high : "In every industry there must be elite products".

 Well folks, in this industry the pricing of the digital backs and the models may be Elite, but service and sales sure ain't except in legendary Atlanta

Edmund

Quote
Yair,

We've had this disucssion before, but I suggest any manufacturer get a Yahoo account with a fake name like Zsar Guidonoria Photography and send a comprehensive e-mail out for price quotes, delivery times and exact availability of product and do this with every dealer and see what the response is.

Then once you take delivery of the product, make an emergency call to the dealer at 4:55pm and say my screen has red pixelated blobs on it and see what the response is.

I think the results will suprise you and not in a good way.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 12:14:19 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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« Reply #108 on: March 31, 2008, 02:32:39 pm »

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Billy,

That grey-blue prism finder is the Leaf version of the thing. Originally Sinar was not planning to sell the 45 degree prism, but F&H offered it since they already had one for the 6000 series. This prism is only a modified version: F&H placed a fitting Hy6/AFi plate under the original 6000 prism. When the prism finder for the Hy6 was a fact Sinar had to reconsider offering it too, in addition to Leaf and F&H on the Rolleiflex Hy6. (Otherwise the result would be that a Sinar badged Hy6 had to carry the Rolleiflex or Leaf badge on the front, since the badge sits on the finder.)

EPd
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Now Thierry or Yair will explain to us why a camera needs a $2000 finder  

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 02:34:24 pm by eronald »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #109 on: March 31, 2008, 02:32:58 pm »

Quote
(Otherwise the result would be that a Sinar badged Hy6 had to carry the Rolleiflex or Leaf badge on the front, since the badge sits on the finder.)

EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

   

Great way of making sure you sell your accessories to every party! I guess every new component will come badged from now on  ?

I refrain from commenting on dealers other than stating that IMO many are utterly useless. Unfortunately none of the MFDB manufacturers at this moment are prepared to communicate and deal more directly with their end-users.
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BJNY

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« Reply #110 on: March 31, 2008, 02:37:27 pm »

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Now Thierry or Yair will explain to us why a camera needs a $2000 finder  
Edmund

Is it really any more expensive than Hasselblad's or Mamiya's prisms/finders?
I recall Jordan stating the 45º sells for around US$1,200
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Guillermo

eronald

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« Reply #111 on: March 31, 2008, 02:41:20 pm »

Quote
Is it really any more expensive than Hasselblad's or Mamiya's prisms/finders?
I recall Jordan stating the 45º sells for around US$1,200
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe we should point Hartblei or Arsat at this interesting new market - I'm sure a prism finder is well within their abilities.

Edmund
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pprdigital

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« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2008, 02:51:03 pm »

Quote
Is it really any more expensive than Hasselblad's or Mamiya's prisms/finders?
I recall Jordan stating the 45º sells for around US$1,200
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Leaf 45 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf 90 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf Waist Level Finder for AFi: $434
Sinar 90 Degree Finder for Hy6: $1,438
Sinar 45 Degree Finder for Hy6: $TBA
Sinar Waist Level Finder for Hy6: $480
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVD Finder for H3D: 1,591
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVX Finder for H1/H2: $1,591
Hasselblad Waist Level Finder for H1/H2: $301
Mamiya 90 Degree Finder for AFD: Free!

Steve Hendrix
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 02:55:22 pm by pprdigital »
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yaya

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« Reply #113 on: March 31, 2008, 02:52:19 pm »

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Now Thierry or Yair will explain to us why a camera needs a $2000 finder  

Edmund
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To keep in line with your comments...it doesn't need a $2K finder, which is why it is cheaper....(about 30% cheaper).

One can always stick to the WLF, which is part of the camera kit anyway.

Yair
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eronald

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« Reply #114 on: March 31, 2008, 03:04:44 pm »

Steve,


 Thank you for this very informative post - maybe you're one of those rare effective dealers who happen to be located in Atlanta ?
 
Edmund



Quote
Leaf 45 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf 90 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf Waist Level Finder for AFi: $434
Sinar 90 Degree Finder for Hy6: $1,438
Sinar 45 Degree Finder for Hy6: $TBA
Sinar Waist Level Finder for Hy6: $480
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVD Finder for H3D: 1,591
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVX Finder for H1/H2: $1,591
Hasselblad Waist Level Finder for H1/H2: $301
Mamiya 90 Degree Finder for AFD: Free!

Steve Hendrix
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 03:05:09 pm by eronald »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #115 on: March 31, 2008, 03:22:50 pm »

Quote
To keep in line with your comments...it doesn't need a $2K finder, which is why it is cheaper....(about 30% cheaper).

One can always stick to the WLF, which is part of the camera kit anyway.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't know about the costs, but I'm telling, you Leaf and Sinar boys need to buy some spray paint and pimp that thing black because it doesn't look very cohesive.

[attachment=5850:attachment]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 03:29:43 pm by James R Russell »
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paul_jones

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« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2008, 03:51:24 pm »

Quote
I don't know about the costs, but I'm telling, you Leaf and Sinar boys need to buy some spray paint and pimp that thing black because it doesn't look very cohesive.

[attachment=5850:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


mmmmm.... nice blue finder.
reminds me of my crappy broncolor impacts i had 15 years ago.

paul
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HarperPhotos

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« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2008, 04:20:58 pm »

Gidday,

Yep that is one ugly camera.

Cheers

Simon
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paul_jones

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« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2008, 04:46:30 pm »

Quote
Gidday,

Yep that is one ugly camera.

Cheers

Simon
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the leaf version looks a lot better. if you have to spend all that money, the camera has to look good as well.

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amsp

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« Reply #119 on: March 31, 2008, 05:08:10 pm »

I have to agree that the whole crazy colors fad is just beyond me. I truly hate the H3D color and the Hy6 gray/red scheme is only slightly better. A pro camera should be black, period. And what's up with that finder? Looks like the ancient Russian Kiev.  

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