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Author Topic: Workflow for events  (Read 7733 times)

Justinr

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Workflow for events
« on: March 15, 2008, 07:30:47 pm »

I've just invested in a Mamiya AFDII with ZD back and a Macbook Pro for commercial work. However, I've been asked to cover a horse riding event and have the prints for sale on the day.

Any ideas on how to set about the workflow? I am completely new to Mac's and find the Mamiya software heavy going. Is it possible to download JPEG's straight to iphoto for cropping and printing? The AFD seems to produce consistently well lit images (unlike the well known make and model it replaces, but let's not go there) so I don't envisage having to make any other  adjustments.

Any thoughts welcome.



Justin.
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david o

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2008, 07:34:32 pm »

Quote
I've just invested in a Mamiya AFDII with ZD back and a Macbook Pro for commercial work. However, I've been asked to cover a horse riding event and have the prints for sale on the day.

Any ideas on how to set about the workflow? I am completely new to Mac's and find the Mamiya software heavy going. Is it possible to download JPEG's straight to iphoto for cropping and printing? The AFD seems to produce consistently well lit images (unlike the well known make and model it replaces, but let's not go there) so I don't envisage having to make any other  adjustments.

Any thoughts welcome.
Justin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I guess Lightroom is a good way to go. It should come with your gear actually. It comes sure with the zd back so I assume it the same for the kit.
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Justinr

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2008, 08:28:27 pm »

Quote
I guess Lightroom is a good way to go. It should come with your gear actually. It comes sure with the zd back so I assume it the same for the kit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Alas, the kit wasn't shipped with Lightroom, It was a bit of a budget box with no fireware cable or blanking caps for the lens or body either. Can I download and print from it without having to transfer files from one prog to another?

Justin.
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david o

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2008, 08:35:27 pm »

Quote
Alas, the kit wasn't shipped with Lightroom, It was a bit of a budget box with no fireware cable or blanking caps for the lens or body either. Can I download and print from it without having to transfer files from one prog to another?

Justin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ok I didn't know it was without Ligthroom, seems like more is less with that kit.

Anyhow you can download a trial version from adobe.com website and yes you can print directly from it.
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Ken Doo

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2008, 09:27:17 pm »

I would not use MF Digital to cover a horse riding event (sporting) and not to mention producing prints within the day.

I'd choose a DSLR---faster focusing.......much easier event workflow, and epecially considering the requirement to print quickly.

NikonMike

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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2008, 09:47:51 pm »

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I would not use MF Digital to cover a horse riding event (sporting) and not to mention producing prints within the day.

I agree with Ken - horses for courses, as they say. What size prints are expected? For 8x10, even a 6MP DSLR may be an "overkill". MF would be justified only for very large prints.

Regarding SW, I use Lightroom so I can only recommend it. I tried it on a few ZD raw files and my MacBook Pro got a good workout with them, everything is *much* slower than a DSLR. Another factor to consider for event photography.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 10:00:01 pm by NikonMike »
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klane

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2008, 01:45:28 am »

I agree pick up a used canon body 1d series with a 70-200 zoom and you should be good to go, then sell it off at no loss when you are done with it.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2008, 02:58:45 am »

MF digital is NOT the tool you want to use. Depending on what events will be at the show, shooting RAW with a fast DSLR like a 1D-series Canon may not be practical. Shooting horses in motion requires split-second timing. There are only a few parts of the horse's gait that are photogenic, and getting the timing right is quite difficult even with a DSLR with a 55ms shutter lag.

 [attachment=5606:attachment] [attachment=5607:attachment] [attachment=5608:attachment] [attachment=5609:attachment]

If you haven't practiced extensively, your keeper rate will be <10% and you'll need to shoot a lot of frames to get salable shots. If the horse's body is in the wrong position, it will look awkward and odd, and the likelihood of selling the shot is low.

Some horse show events involve 25 riders riding in a single arena for about 5 minutes. During those 5 minutes, you have to shoot aesthetically pleasing, unobstructed images of each horse and rider. I've buried the buffer of my 1D-MkII shooting JPEGs (one of the few times I'll shoot JPEGs professionally). For show jumping events, a good zoom with a decent range is necessary if you want to shoot more than one jump as the rider proceeds through the course. The same is true shooting dressage; in addition to the split-second timing issue, the horse and rider may be anywhere from 5 meters to 50 meters away during the ride, and using primes will cost you a lot of opportunites. Even if you nail the timing bit consistently, you still need to shoot a lot, as often the horse or rider will be doing something that will lessen the salability of the image, such as the horse not having ears forward, or the rider not using proper form. Depending on the number of riders in the show and the events, 500-2000 frames for a day is par for the course for a single shooter for actual event coverage. A MFDB is not going to keep up in such a situation. And shooting tethered is not an option; you'll need to be mobile so that you can get out of the way if a horse spooks, and your best position to shoot an outdoor arena will change as the sun's position changes.

The only role a MFDB would be suitable for at a horse show is doing portraits of horse & rider, not for actual coverage of the competition.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 03:09:49 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2008, 09:11:19 am »

One other note: the most commonly-sold print sizes at horse shows are 5x7 and 8x10 inches. I've sold larger images (up to 24x36) of equestrian portraits, but the largest print I've ever sold of an actual competition image is 11x14.
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Ken Doo

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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2008, 10:54:07 am »

Shooting events for a fast workflow is one of the few times that shooting JPEGS is better than RAW.  Printing on location can be a real PITA, but can be profitable with the right equipment and workflow----planned well in advance.

If you know your camera well (and adjust quickly to your selected venue), just about any decent DSLR will work well for an event, although the best for sporting type events will be the faster DSLRs with a high fps.  

Attached shot was with the mighty but sloooow Canon 5D.  Not a foo-foo event, but the other side of fast, powerful, and beautiful horses.  I used a monopod for this event.  Special thanks to Michael----it was shot with his old Canon 300mm f/2.8 IS.  Quite a magical lens....(watch out Michael---you have groupies!)    

ken

ohshannon

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2008, 01:02:25 pm »

don't go with DB if you are going to shoot for events or even weddings.
DSLR will do well.
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Justinr

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2008, 06:28:22 pm »

Many thanks for all the replies, it is much appreciated.

I have a fair idea about photographing horses (www.tipphorse.com & www.justinseye.com) and even have two in the back garden to practice on. All the photos on the sites were taken with a Canon 30D, an instrument I have come to distrust completely. I have vented my frustration with Canon elsewhere but suffice to say that all the faults reported with the 1D are apparent on the the 30D as well. Nothing like letting the customer do the development work!

I am not a fan of machine gunning an event with multi frame exposures but instead like to watch and anticipate. My home page on justinseye.com was no accident, I waited for that moment and got the shot. The event next week is a cross country competition and so it's a question of waiting at a jump and getting them coming over. The rider will be delighted with an A4 print showing them mid air or landing, and once you have the knack of anticipating that moment then life becomes easier.

Bitter experience has taught me that the 30D is too unreliable for the job (the lack of a working tracking AF is just one problem) so it's going to have to be the AFDII which may seem like madness but I used to do weddings on Bronicas, so MF holds few terrors. The Mamiya also produces a far better picture and I tend to be fussy about the prints I let loose into the environment, so there lies another reason for sticking with it. Good, well lit prints will also sell my photographic services beyond the horse world, mind you, this part of Ireland is a world of horses so that may not be such a bonus after all.

No, my biggest concern is getting an efficient system from capture to print. JPEG's will be the order of the day so its a question of downloading, backing up, displaying and printing. I will be having a look at Lightroom as I have also heard good reports of it elsewhere. Anything has got to be better than Mamiyas 'processing' and transferring of files to iPhoto for printing in my view.

Justin.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2008, 10:23:55 pm »

The 1D-III issues have been identified and fixed, and even the "defective" ones autofocus much better than the consumer-grade cameras. The 1D-II models never had any focusing issue, and can be had for quite a reasonable price now. And they autofocus far better than any MF camera system.

BTW, I've used the 8FPS option on my camera on maybe three occasions, and none of them were for actual jobs for clients. With some events, shooting single shot mode will still fill the buffer when shooting RAW if you want to get decent shots of all the riders in the event before it is over. Even if you time your shot perfectly, you're going to want to take more than one of each horse and rider, because the horse or rider may do something to lessen the value of a particular frame.

On a show jumping course, the rider may have the horse jump too soon or be doing something else that they may not want immortalized in an 8x10 in the wall. You'll want to get shots of as many jumps in the course as you can; one shot of the peak moment of each jump. For dressage, the riders are especially fussy; you may not notice if the horse is cantering with the wrong leg leading, but the rider probably will, and those shots probably won't sell. Nor will shots where the rider is making any of many possible mistakes that may not be obvious to the casual observer. In the mass events, you have only a few minutes to get salable images of as many as 25 or 30 riders, and shooting slowly is simply not an option. Even if you don't "machine gun" and your timing is quite good, you are still going to shoot a lot if you want to have a good chance of capturing an image that will sell.

Then there's the issue of focal length; a zoom may not be as good as a prime, but an uncropped zoom shot will handily beat a prime shot that is cropped down to 25% of its original pixel count. My tool of choice when shooting outdoors is the 35-350L; not the sharpest lens by any stretch, but the fact that I can get the framing right in-camera with minimal cropping makes up for it's shortcomings. On the 1D-II it is equivalent to 50-500mm, which is an ideal range for covering dressage and show jumping courses. My second choice is the 70-200/2.8L IS. It has less focal range, but is preferable in low-light conditions. Shooting with a MF back and primes means that you're either going to have to forgo numerous shooting opportunities or else crop many of your images heavily, which kind of defeats the purpose of the MF camera...

A 1D-II isn't that expensive right now, but is far better suited for action shots than any MF system. Image quality is irrelevant for images that you fail to capture because the subject was too far away or the camera buffer is full, or that aren't focused properly because the AF can't track the moving subject accurately enough. And unless you plan to bring a very powerful desktop to process images on-site, the overhead of MF digital is going to slow down your workflow to a crawl which is not what you want when customers are waiting in line. The smaller DSLR files will process much more quickly, and will still be overkill for many of the prints you'll sell.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2008, 02:47:54 am »

Jonathon - they OP asked about workflow not shooting style

It is my opinion that MF can have its use anyway

And BTW the nikon jump shot - I had to use MF on the D200 !

S
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 02:50:13 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2008, 09:29:14 pm »

I've not had issues with tracking running horses with the AF of either the 1Ds or the 1D-II.

I wouldn't hesitate to use MF for portrait-style shots. but not for action shots. Unless you set up a network on-site so you can have one machine dedicated to letting prospective buyers browse images and another machine dedicated to cropping and printing, it's tough for the hardware to keep up with the line of customers when things get busy even with DSLR images. Double the file size and now you have some significant issues to deal with.
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Justinr

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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2008, 02:15:22 pm »

Quote
I've not had issues with tracking running horses with the AF of either the 1Ds or the 1D-II.

I wouldn't hesitate to use MF for portrait-style shots. but not for action shots. Unless you set up a network on-site so you can have one machine dedicated to letting prospective buyers browse images and another machine dedicated to cropping and printing, it's tough for the hardware to keep up with the line of customers when things get busy even with DSLR images. Double the file size and now you have some significant issues to deal with.
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Well I shan't argue with the need for two computers, one to browse and one to crop and print especially with the so called  'system' I had cobbled together. The day was a bit of a disaster, what with having to shovel the poo out of the 'clean' trailer we had been promised and the shiny new Macbrook pro blowing its fuse and running out of puff half way through the day and so on. But the greatest delight was in using the AFD and ZD for action shots. It worked! Hold the shutter half way down on the horses approach and with a little forethought click it all the way home on takeoff. Everything on manual, including focus as I had the 120 macro mounted, spin up or down a stop for bays or greys and hey presto, you've got yourself some quite saleable shots. I had the 30D alongside as a spare and fired a few off under the same conditions (OK,  it was set on AF, but not tracking!)  for comparison and basically it was several leagues behind with the slightest change in lighting conditions inducing a massive swing in image appearance. I just wish I could view them again but the 'pooter won't be fixed until Tuesday.  

Justin.
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shutay

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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2008, 11:00:01 pm »

Justin, how about sharing some of your shots from the day when you get your computer back?

It was not clear from your post whether you were ultimately able to crop/print on the spot, or if all of that went out the trailer when the MacBook Pro blew it's "fuse"?
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Justinr

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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 11:44:11 am »

I was set up to crop and print on the spot although for various reasons the operation was a bit of a mish mash of several programmes. It either needs serious streamlining or forgetting about and just buying in some expertise for web marketing. The basic problem with the latter is that we are still on dial up here with no hope of broadband for some time, but that's another long story.

Anyway, here is a link to some images I took on the cameras first serious trial outing. It dealt with the mixed lighting pretty well I thought on the first picture (the Canon got nowhere close) but I need a decent amount of flash upstairs bouncing off the roof rather than a bit of fill in from the Metz. Close up's are pretty near to where I wanted them but more DOF is a must, but then again, it was the first time I'd even looked through the macro so not too unhappy about it all.

www.justinseye.com/subpage8.html

Justin.
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Justinr

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2008, 06:14:14 am »

Quote
Justin, how about sharing some of your shots from the day when you get your computer back?

It was not clear from your post whether you were ultimately able to crop/print on the spot, or if all of that went out the trailer when the MacBook Pro blew it's "fuse"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well here goes. Click on 'event pictures' at www.justinseye.com and you should come to a gallery of my first venture into this field. The variance in lighting looks worse in the thumbnails than it actually is, but overall I can console myself with knowing that there is a lot worse out there.

BTW, about two thirds were shot dMF , the rest with a dSLR.

Justin.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 06:16:41 am by Justinr »
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