How to get a 1Ds3's color to match the P25's?

[John_Black]

After spending countless hours in C1, DPP and Photoshop - I cannot get a P25 file and 1Ds3 to have the same color.  Match the blues, yellows and reds go wonky.  Match the reds and something else goes...  It's a continuous back & forth.

I can shoot the P25 and 1Ds3 with the same lens, so that variable is removed.  I can shoot a Getrag-Macbeth chart & white balance chart with both.  So I could have a common pairs of files taken under strobes, outdoors natural light, indoors natural light, etc.

After compiling those files, how do I begin to create C1 camera profiles?  My goal is for the 1Ds3 files to have the same starting point as the P25 file in C1.  I know it won't be 100% exact, but I should be able to get pretty darn close.  At least I think (hope) so...

How do I do this???

[Eurotographer]

I think the most accurate way would be to use profilemaker, or some similar software to make custom profiles for each device and use them as your input/device profile.

[Eurotographer]

I think the most accurate way would be to use profilemaker, or some similar software to make custom profiles for each device and use them as your input/device profile.

[Joe Behar]

C1 Pro Color Editor

[marcmccalmont]

To get my 5D and P30 looking similar I use curves to subtract green from the P30 and add green to the 5D. Close enough for government work.
P30; curves green channel input 128 output 126
5D; curves green channel input 126 output 128

on a normal daylight scene the P30's increased dynamic range looks a bit washed out so I compress the shadows and increase contrast with the following curve;
curves RGB channel input 21 output 5 and input 35 output 17

Perhaps your 1DsIII and P25 have similar differences?
DxO for the 5D and C1v4 for the P30

Marc

[Dustbak]

The 'cheap' way would be to shoot  a color chart and make curves adjustment layers where you adjust per color until you get into the same ballpark. Unfortunately you probably have to redo that as soon as circumstances change. Afterwards you can make actions/droplets that copy those layers onto images so you don't have to do it manually.

If it is absolutely vital to you there is no alternative but profiling the cameras via stuff like profile maker (camera module). This is not only expensive but you also need to do it for every situation you need it. While it is pretty doable under studio circumstance, I think outside it is a lot of work (understatement of the year I guess).

I have been toying around with the idea of profiling my backs but eventually decided the hassle was not worth the results.

[Joe Behar]

If it is absolutely vital to you there is no alternative but profiling the cameras via stuff like profile maker (camera module). This is not only expensive but you also need to do it for every situation you need it. While it is pretty doable under studio circumstance, I think outside it is a lot of work (understatement of the year I guess).

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Using the color editor in C1 pro, you start with an existing camera profile and make either global or individual colour changes in hue, saturation and lightness. The results are then saved out as new camera profile. You have profile editing software built in to C1 pro, why not use it? Even if buy profiling software and do both your Canon and P25 you'll endu having to edit the profiles to match.

[eronald]

via www.yousendit.com email me colorchecker Raws taken with both cameras under identical light conditions.

Edmund

[John_Black]

Joe - I've been trying...  The closest analogy I can come up with is a piece of string.  I can move the piece of string to any point, but end point moves along with it.  One of the RGB channels seems to get close, then other tones, etc., get knocked out of balance.  I end up going in circles.

As Dustbak said, you could invest a lifetime trying to do this, so it's a game of "close enough".  I don't view the P25's color as the correct benchmark, but there are times I do like its rendition.  There are other times where I think the Canon coloring is more appropriate.

And for some reason the color editor system crashes my Mac quite often.  The ColorSync First Aid profile utility opens and wants to fix things... It gets messy.  I've rebuilt the system twice because I unwittingly decided to let Colorsync Utility do its thing... I keep my distance from the Color Editor Utility now  

Dustbak - I'll try some of your values.  Coming up with those S-curves is not my speciality.  The correct adjustment point(s) are somewhere along the line and then +/- at that point.  Clicking on the curve is so crude, it's like carpet bombing when a precision munition is needed.

[marcmccalmont]

Dustbak - I'll try some of your values.  Coming up with those S-curves is not my speciality.  The correct adjustment point(s) are somewhere along the line and then +/- at that point.  Clicking on the curve is so crude, it's like carpet bombing when a precision munition is needed.
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[/quote]

If you have an hour you might want to try my curves technique it got me close enough. They are not s curves but just one or 2 points on a "banana" curve. It is easy to click on the center point 127, 127 then type the values into the input and output windows very precise. Worth an hours time if it solves your problem?
Marc

I found the differences when looking at a color chart were daunting but in general the Canon had a bit too much magenta and the Phase a bit too much green and the above changes made outdoor landscape files look a lot closer, much closer than the 2 minor adjustments would leave you to believe.

[James R Russell]

Dustbak - I'll try some of your values.  Coming up with those S-curves is not my speciality.  The correct adjustment point(s) are somewhere along the line and then +/- at that point.  Clicking on the curve is so crude, it's like carpet bombing when a precision munition is needed.
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If you have an hour you might want to try my curves technique it got me close enough. They are not s curves but just one or 2 points on a "banana" curve. It is easy to click on the center point 127, 127 then type the values into the input and output windows very precise. Worth an hours time if it solves your problem?
Marc

I found the differences when looking at a color chart were daunting but in general the Canon had a bit too much magenta and the Phase a bit too much green and the above changes made outdoor landscape files look a lot closer, much closer than the 2 minor adjustments would leave you to believe.
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[/quote]

The upside is (depnding on the raw processor) the Phase backs are more color sensitive than the Canons, which in my eyes seems more global in color.

In other words the Phase sees ambient color more than the Canons, which though sometimes very pleasing in open shade, are a little color dumb.

I routinely shoot multiple cameras per job, Phase and Leica, Canon and Phase etc. etc. and though you can get close I've found none exactly match, or for that matter probably should.

Given all of this, if you want to get closer to the Canon look with the Phase, (at least with my p30 and P21 plus') I use V4 for final development or Raw Developer.

For slight small changes I use the color editor, but that is usually on set to show and art dirctor the look, or to just clean up white backgrounds.

Try some different processors and I think you will get much closer.

JR

[John_Black]

Thanks James.  Edmund suggested Raw Developer too.  

I don't mind Canon's color for some subjects - Canon has its "look".  Nor do I consider the P25 the epitome of color either.  My P25 tends towards the magenta family.  Some of the C1 profiles lessen it, others magnify it.  Overall, it's not really my taste, but it does wonders for keeping the darker regions clear(er).  Canon gets muddy in the mid & dark tones.  The 1Ds, 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 - all have that mushy dark tone region.

Phase is quite good in those tones, so I'm hoping to extract some of the look and engineer some new profiles for the 1Ds3.  Ideally the best of both worlds, but that's awfully lofty goal.  Check back in a month or so and we'll see.

I'm going to order a 140 patch color chart and start from there.  I forget the Canon added a style editor which is the same set-up as C1's profile editor.  In theory I can shoot the chart with both cameras, process the P25 in C1, drop the Canon file into the Style Editor and starting sampling and aligning values.  

This will either be brilliant, or the biggest waste of time in recent memory...  

Again, thanks for everyone's input!  

[eronald]

John,

 for a good idea of what camera color looks like you need the standard Colorchecker, for profiling purposes you need the Colorchecker SG. Basically, you need to own both, even the colors which are supposed to match in those two charts are in fact not identical. The simple Colorchecker is often used to evaluate screens.

Edmund

Thanks James.  Edmund suggested Raw Developer too. 

I don't mind Canon's color for some subjects - Canon has its "look".  Nor do I consider the P25 the epitome of color either.  My P25 tends towards the magenta family.  Some of the C1 profiles lessen it, others magnify it.  Overall, it's not really my taste, but it does wonders for keeping the darker regions clear(er).  Canon gets muddy in the mid & dark tones.  The 1Ds, 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 - all have that mushy dark tone region.

Phase is quite good in those tones, so I'm hoping to extract some of the look and engineer some new profiles for the 1Ds3.  Ideally the best of both worlds, but that's awfully lofty goal.  Check back in a month or so and we'll see.

I'm going to order a 140 patch color chart and start from there.  I forget the Canon added a style editor which is the same set-up as C1's profile editor.  In theory I can shoot the chart with both cameras, process the P25 in C1, drop the Canon file into the Style Editor and starting sampling and aligning values. 

This will either be brilliant, or the biggest waste of time in recent memory... 

Again, thanks for everyone's input! 
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