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Morris Taub

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« on: March 11, 2008, 11:19:03 am »

I use Photoshop for design work and up until now for my photo work. I'm about to get a new computer and want to finally have a plan for a photo library that works.

Because I always have Photoshop I was thinking of just buying Photo Mechanic, the Dam Book, and rolling my own 'method' or whatever you want to call it for archiving photos...

Do I need Lightroom? Will it help me to better organize because of how it organizes?...

I haven't been able to download a trial version yet, I've only read about Lightroom on the Adobe site and here a bit...I'm still working on OS 10.3.9...that's about to change...heading into Leopard country...

I also wonder if Lightroom has more/better/different tools and function than photoshop especially where photography is concerned...I mean I watched a few lightroom videos and it looks feature packed with incredible flexibility...I'm still running Photoshop CS so I don't know how to compare...that too will soon change...CS3, here i come...

so, any words of advice, caution?...I did download the Photo Mechanic trial and it does load my images fast, seems to have tons of control for keywords, etc...seems like a good program to have a first look at downloads and then sorting...

I wasn't sure which forum to post this in...LL forum police please move if it's not in the right place...

thanks for your help...

Jon Meddings

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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 02:15:29 pm »

Quote
I use Photoshop for design work and up until now for my photo work. I'm about to get a new computer and want to finally have a plan for a photo library that works.

Because I always have Photoshop I was thinking of just buying Photo Mechanic, the Dam Book, and rolling my own 'method' or whatever you want to call it for archiving photos...

Do I need Lightroom? Will it help me to better organize because of how it organizes?...

I haven't been able to download a trial version yet, I've only read about Lightroom on the Adobe site and here a bit...I'm still working on OS 10.3.9...that's about to change...heading into Leopard country...

I also wonder if Lightroom has more/better/different tools and function than photoshop especially where photography is concerned...I mean I watched a few lightroom videos and it looks feature packed with incredible flexibility...I'm still running Photoshop CS so I don't know how to compare...that too will soon change...CS3, here i come...

so, any words of advice, caution?...I did download the Photo Mechanic trial and it does load my images fast, seems to have tons of control for keywords, etc...seems like a good program to have a first look at downloads and then sorting...

I wasn't sure which forum to post this in...LL forum police please move if it's not in the right place...

thanks for your help...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180599\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not sure I can help in your decision making as I can't really appreciate your work flow. I can tell you that I use (and love) lightroom right alongside Photoshop. I've used it since it came out and while I've tried several other cataloging programs (IMatch/IView come to mind) this is the only one that I've stuck with and believe I'll continue to. More about that in a minute.

In relationship to PS - it does not replace PS but does replace quite a few things I used to do in PS and it sure seems that this is only going to increase. It is easy to roundtrip to photoshop as necessary though.

It isn't as powerful as some dedicated cataloging programs but it is pretty darn good. I have about 25K images in my database. Over the last year I slowly went through and catalogued them and during that process found the thing that really appeals to me about LR. When I used a separate stand alone program each picture was easy to catalog but as I sat and looked at the thumbnail I would see things about it that I suddenly wished to change and I couldn't. At least without opening another program. Within LR it is easy to spend several hours simply looking at old photoshoots, reliving the memories, adding some keywords and fiddling a bit with the color temperature of an image for instance. It is just so easy in LR to do this and I suspect that the capabilities are only going to increase.

So my advice - I'd get LR and use with PS. Unless you need incredible cataloging strength LR seems 'good enough' and the ease of use and packaging of other features is wonderul. It is a very, very powerful image editor as well as managing cataloging and web export capabilities.
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Morris Taub

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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 06:55:58 am »

Quote
Not sure I can help in your decision making as I can't really appreciate your work flow. I can tell you that I use (and love) lightroom right alongside Photoshop. I've used it since it came out and while I've tried several other cataloging programs (IMatch/IView come to mind) this is the only one that I've stuck with and believe I'll continue to. More about that in a minute.

In relationship to PS - it does not replace PS but does replace quite a few things I used to do in PS and it sure seems that this is only going to increase. It is easy to roundtrip to photoshop as necessary though.

It isn't as powerful as some dedicated cataloging programs but it is pretty darn good. I have about 25K images in my database. Over the last year I slowly went through and catalogued them and during that process found the thing that really appeals to me about LR. When I used a separate stand alone program each picture was easy to catalog but as I sat and looked at the thumbnail I would see things about it that I suddenly wished to change and I couldn't. At least without opening another program. Within LR it is easy to spend several hours simply looking at old photoshoots, reliving the memories, adding some keywords and fiddling a bit with the color temperature of an image for instance. It is just so easy in LR to do this and I suspect that the capabilities are only going to increase.

So my advice - I'd get LR and use with PS. Unless you need incredible cataloging strength LR seems 'good enough' and the ease of use and packaging of other features is wonderul. It is a very, very powerful image editor as well as managing cataloging and web export capabilities.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks for taking time to write Jon...I appreciate the personal work experience and it does help me to decide somewhat in favor of buying the program...I have that experience too...going through images and even though i hadn't planned on doing any pp work I'll stop at a few and work on them...

i think your point about the cataloging strength is good too...i was sitting on the fence about it...I don't shoot thousands of images a month it's more like hundreds...i'm starting to feel that Lightroom would just be a practical solution...

one question about Lightrooms library/database, i'm not even sure if they're the same thing in Lightroom...is it easy to move, edit, if necessary...i seem to read quite a few questions about people having trouble with that, as if it's hard to manipulate once you've set up a location for it or something...

kind regards

M

francois

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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 07:34:34 am »

Quote
…one question about Lightrooms library/database, i'm not even sure if they're the same thing in Lightroom...is it easy to move, edit, if necessary...i seem to read quite a few questions about people having trouble with that, as if it's hard to manipulate once you've set up a location for it or something...
I've been moving Lightroom libraires between computers without any problem so far. I use the export as catalog… function. I'm using a Mac and I believe that this function is identical on a PC.
Now, if you want to dive and tinker into the library "manually" then you might get in trouble pretty easily. But, in any case, you should not do it.
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Francois

jjj

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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2008, 08:00:51 am »

Quote
Now, if you want to dive and tinker into the library "manually" then you might get in trouble pretty easily. But, in any case, you should not do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not sure I'd quite agree there. LR's library simply reflects the folders on your hard drive, so it's not a problem to mess around with your folder structure[which is in effect your library] and it's easier to do that outside of LR and then ask LR to resync. Why? - LR doesn't let you move multiple folders at once. You should never need to do that, if you get your folder heirachy correct to begin with, but the oprtion is there at least if you do.

The best way to organise images is by date and with a brief description of folder contents also.
2008/
  2008-01 Jan/
     2008-01-04 London V+A
     2008-01-04 London Tower Bridge
     2008-01-06 Sheffield Peace Gardens

Add some keywords then to images and you have an exceptionally powerful and easy to use filing system, which very, very importantly works on any OS and with any DAM app.
As for the Peter Krogh's DAM advice, some useful ideas and some less useful stuff.
For instance, name your folders/files so humans can read them.
03122008_Town_Hall_Demo_001.CR2 is much harder to read than
2008-03-12 Town Hall Demo 001.CR2
Always have date at front of name and always do it year-month-day so it will sort correctly even if you view files from within a flat folder structure.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 08:01:18 am by jjj »
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francois

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 08:27:33 am »

Quote
Not sure I'd quite agree there. LR's library simply reflects the folders on your hard drive, so it's not a problem to mess around with your folder structure[which is in effect your library] and it's easier to do that outside of LR and then ask LR to resync. Why? - LR doesn't let you move multiple folders at once. You should never need to do that, if you get your folder heirachy correct to begin with, but the oprtion is there at least if you do.

The best way to organise images is by date and with a brief description of folder contents also.
2008/
  2008-01 Jan/
     2008-01-04 London V+A
     2008-01-04 London Tower Bridge
     2008-01-06 Sheffield Peace Gardens

Add some keywords then to images and you have an exceptionally powerful and easy to use filing system, which very, very importantly works on any OS and with any DAM app.
As for the Peter Krogh's DAM advice, some useful ideas and some less useful stuff.
For instance, name your folders/files so humans can read them.
03122008_Town_Hall_Demo_001.CR2 is much harder to read than
2008-03-12 Town Hall Demo 001.CR2
Always have date at front of name and always do it year-month-day so it will sort correctly even if you view files from within a flat folder structure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180804\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was not talking about renaming/moving files or folders but playing with SQLite or other exotic manipulations… I should have been more specific about it, sorry.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 08:28:37 am by francois »
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Francois

jjj

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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2008, 08:36:55 am »

Quote
I was not talking about renaming/moving files or folders but playing with SQLite or other exotic manipulations… I should have been more specific about it, sorry.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guessed that is what you meant, I was just clarfying.
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Jon Meddings

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 09:30:59 am »

Quote
one question about Lightrooms library/database, i'm not even sure if they're the same thing in Lightroom...is it easy to move, edit, if necessary...i seem to read quite a few questions about people having trouble with that, as if it's hard to manipulate once you've set up a location for it or something...

kind regards

M
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180798\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, again I'd speak from personal experience here. I did have some troubles with this initially until I figured out how LR works - now it is absolutely not a problem. Let me tell you my workflow (on a PC) and perhaps you can see what is similar with yours and what might work.

1. After a shoot I download from a card reader using DownLoaderPro. I like this as it automatically renames my files, creates a directory structure I like and backs up my photos. I download to a directory \YYYY\MM\D\CameraModel_Date_Image#.cr2 and so if all I ever have elsewhere is the filename of the image I can still find an original from the date. Downloader does all this automatically for me and also mirrors this to a separate standalone drive so that all my RAW files are in 2 places.

2. I then import these files into the LR database from my primary file structure. My original mistake was to simply import the final folder I had created ( \YYYY\MM\D ) and this worked fine but I never had a clear directory structure in LR that mirrored my disks. Subsequently I've learnt that if you just ask LR to synchronize from the top folder it will find all new images in the sub folders and all is well.

M - within LR it is then very easy to delete images from disk, move files or directories around and even if you do this outside of LR you can always (in my experience) show LR where things moved to and it keeps track of the new change from then on.

I find it works well.
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blansky

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 12:43:29 pm »

I'd download the free trial for 30 days, order Martin Evenings Lightroom book and go from there.

It's pretty intuitive once you understand the library/catalog concept and works seamlessly with Photoshop.


Michael
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Nat Coalson

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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2008, 03:17:19 pm »

I agree with the others that Lightroom and Photoshop are mutually exclusive and both are useful in different ways. I use them both every day.

I think Reichmann and Schewe's Lightroom Video Tutorials are quite good. For most people it's easier to learn that way than from a book (though I also agree Evening's is the best).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 03:18:11 pm by Nat Coalson »
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Morris Taub

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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2008, 04:44:30 am »

Quote
Well, again I'd speak from personal experience here. I did have some troubles with this initially until I figured out how LR works - now it is absolutely not a problem. Let me tell you my workflow (on a PC) and perhaps you can see what is similar with yours and what might work.

1. After a shoot I download from a card reader using DownLoaderPro. I like this as it automatically renames my files, creates a directory structure I like and backs up my photos. I download to a directory \YYYY\MM\D\CameraModel_Date_Image#.cr2 and so if all I ever have elsewhere is the filename of the image I can still find an original from the date. Downloader does all this automatically for me and also mirrors this to a separate standalone drive so that all my RAW files are in 2 places.

2. I then import these files into the LR database from my primary file structure. My original mistake was to simply import the final folder I had created ( \YYYY\MM\D ) and this worked fine but I never had a clear directory structure in LR that mirrored my disks. Subsequently I've learnt that if you just ask LR to synchronize from the top folder it will find all new images in the sub folders and all is well.

M - within LR it is then very easy to delete images from disk, move files or directories around and even if you do this outside of LR you can always (in my experience) show LR where things moved to and it keeps track of the new change from then on.

I find it works well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180829\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hmmm, I wonder if someone makes a 'downloaderpro' that's compatible with my apple?...I've gotta go back to Photo Mechanic and see if it can what you're talking about...sounds like a good work flow to me Jon...

thanks again...this and the other responses help me to understand what I'm getting myself into...I may even purchase, later today, the LL lightroom tutorial...might be good for me to see it this way before purchase, know what i'm buying for 300 clams, and then be able to use it as reference later if i do buy Lightroom...

anyway...thank you all for your responses...

David Mantripp

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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 07:53:58 pm »

just in case....

be aware that LR is not ideal for cataloging non-digitally sourced stuff, such as scans, due to limits on pixel size.

For what my opinion is worth, LR is a nice front end on ACR, but the rest of it is a bit of an "usine a gaz" as they say in France.  I imagine it is pretty useful for working pros with large amounts of files to process following a fixed recipe, but if you're working in a more "artistic" way, then apart from a few nice tricks like targeted adjustments, it doesn't offer much over CS3.

The DAM stuff is really not very good. It works, but it is very fiddly and fussy compared to dedicated tools like Portfolio or Expression Media.  Personally every time it prevents me from using a Stack just because I happen to be working from a "Collection" rather than the Library (totally defeating the point of an integrated DAM) I want to throw it out the window.

So, nice RAW converter, frustrating and poorly implemented catalog. But I expect v2 will be better.
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cgeisler

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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 01:37:08 pm »

Quote from: momo2,Mar 15 2008, 03:44 AM
hmmm, I wonder if someone makes a 'downloaderpro' that's compatible with my apple?...I've gotta go back to Photo Mechanic and see if it can what you're talking about...sounds like a good work flow to me Jon...

Image Ingester: http://imageingester.com/ImageIngester/index.php


Carl
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Morris Taub

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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 03:52:42 pm »

Quote from: cgeisler,Mar 18 2008, 07:37 PM
Quote from: momo2,Mar 15 2008, 03:44 AM
hmmm, I wonder if someone makes a 'downloaderpro' that's compatible with my apple?...I've gotta go back to Photo Mechanic and see if it can what you're talking about...sounds like a good work flow to me Jon...

Image Ingester: http://imageingester.com/ImageIngester/index.php
Carl
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Thanks Carl...that looks pretty good to me...do you use it?...any problems?...

Morris Taub

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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 04:08:25 pm »

Quote
just in case....

be aware that LR is not ideal for cataloging non-digitally sourced stuff, such as scans, due to limits on pixel size.

For what my opinion is worth, LR is a nice front end on ACR, but the rest of it is a bit of an "usine a gaz" as they say in France.  I imagine it is pretty useful for working pros with large amounts of files to process following a fixed recipe, but if you're working in a more "artistic" way, then apart from a few nice tricks like targeted adjustments, it doesn't offer much over CS3.

The DAM stuff is really not very good. It works, but it is very fiddly and fussy compared to dedicated tools like Portfolio or Expression Media.  Personally every time it prevents me from using a Stack just because I happen to be working from a "Collection" rather than the Library (totally defeating the point of an integrated DAM) I want to throw it out the window.

So, nice RAW converter, frustrating and poorly implemented catalog. But I expect v2 will be better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182250\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi drm...thanks for your input...never having used any of the programs you list it's hard for me to comment...I do wonder when V2 will be out and what improvements it will present...

I did buy and watch the LR tutorial from LL and it does explain a lot of what I was just guessing about...still, the catalog/library/database info is a bit confusing (i'd guess it's more simple in use)...and then the absence of good sharpening within the program and noise reduction seem like obvious holes right now...

still not sure i understand the concept of them working on versions without working on the real file...it was like jeff and michael had thousands of images on their laptops, could manipulate them, but it sounded like they weren't changing things in the database...i'll go back and look at some of the tutorial again,...it wasn't clear to me what they were working with/on to make exposure and color adjustments...

still, i'm inclined to feel like jon...adobe will slowly improve Lightroom and it'll be a program with longevity and added power as the years go by...so invest in the base, get the database started, set up how i like and then wait and buy every other update or something...

unless they happen to buy some other company with a better product and Lightroom is suddenly shelved...like what happened to Livemotion when they bought macromedia...that scares me but not a lot...

it is odd as well that adobe provided a beta version way in advance to get input from pro photographers and others and yet, version 1 was missing some basic stuff that directly affects of a photographer works...nonetheless, it still does some amazing things...

cgeisler

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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 06:41:12 pm »

I just switched from a PC, where I used Downloader Pro, to a Mac. ImageIngester has a different interface, which I'm just learning. Download the User Manual and give it a good read. Sorry I can't be of much help.

Carl
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francois

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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 06:08:58 am »

Quote

still not sure i understand the concept of them working on versions without working on the real file...it was like jeff and michael had thousands of images on their laptops, could manipulate them, but it sounded like they weren't changing things in the database...i'll go back and look at some of the tutorial again,...it wasn't clear to me what they were working with/on to make exposure and color adjustments...
The catalog (catalog = library = database) concept is mostly transparent. You shouldn't worry about it.
You do adjustments on previews generated automatically by Lightroom, your original files stay unmodified.
The originals are stored in your hard disk, where and how (folders) you like them to be. Files are not stored in the Lightroom catalog. On the other hand, all the adjustments, references to originals, keywords, settings, etc. are stored in the catalog.

When you export files, Lightroom generates a new file from the original (with your adjustments rolled-in).

The tutorial might be a bit hard to understand if you don't have Lightroom on your computer, especially if you've never used software in the vein of Lightroom.

While I find that noise reduction is not - yet - as effective as Noise Ninja and friends, it's adequate for normal photos. Capture sharpening has been greatly enhanced with the introduction of version 1.3.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 06:09:43 am by francois »
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Francois

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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 01:17:11 pm »

I vastly prefer photo mechanic over lightroom for DAM. Much faster, better ingesting and doesn't have the database hassle.  See which fits you better though.
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seamus finn

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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2008, 12:14:15 pm »

It's a salutary lesson to open any recent version of Photoshop, start adjusting some  RAW images and then do the same in Lightroom. The speed difference, ease of use, intuitive workflow etc between PS/Bridge and LR is an eye-opener,with the latter a winner on most fronts apart from the by now well-known shortcomings which, hopefully, will be resolved in future versions.

Straightforward non-destructive editing in LR as against intricate work using multiple adjustment layers etc in PS is a big step forward. Compared to Photoshop,  LR is a lean application and makes available much - but by no means all, yet - of what the  typical photographer would need.  But, we haven't even reached V2 yet and at this very early stage, it's already a powerful application.

The ability to switch effortlessly in LR between one image and another  (even to browse) and back again, track changes via the history panel, call on presets, see folders and files at a glance, inspect before/after or colour/bw versions, delete, find, move and manipulate folders etc in one smooth operation is welcome. All the while the original image stays in its pristine state at its original source, untouched by human hand.

Having been working in LR since its original beta release, I now find filing, saving, creating endless adjustment layers, looking for folders etc in PS/Bridge a bit of an energy-sapping chore compared to the LR way.

Admittedly, PS still needs to be used for many important adjustments such as serious cloning/healing, selections, output sharpening, transforming etc.  Personally, I nowadays seldom use Bridge, preferring LR instead for its speed and efficiency. It's a great browser. It’s so good you can easily get distracted into returning to older images you thought you had finished with instead of getting on with the work in hand.

My workflow is not very sophisticated:  save  Canon 5D RAW images from card to folder on external HD, open LR,  activate Import,  enter some meaningful key-wording, bring them into LR. Now I have a folder right in front of me, a filmstrip and nearly all I need at my fingertips for immediate image adjusting.  PS is open if I need it for work that LR cannot do, or does very badly, I regularly slip in and out of PS via the external editor option, save the changes and  come back again to LR, looking for the adjusted image with the _edit designation.  Best of all I can see where everything is in the LR folder panel without rummaging around in another, external location. You can make LR folder hierarchies as complicated or as simple as you like - me, I prefer simple. In many cases the name of the location where the shots were taken is enough but for photographers who shoot thousands of images a week, LR has multiple ways of keeping track of them.

One of the big jobs confronting me currently is scanning hundreds of black and white negatives going back a number of years from several countries. Many of these negs are dusty, spotted and scratched. LR is no good for dealing with these defects as I personally find the cloning/healing tool virtually useless and the scanner amplifies every flaw to an infuriating degree. Worse still, scanner ICE technology doesn’t work on normal b/w film. However, there are advantages too: for example, the other night, I scanned a good number of bw negatives on a Nikon V ED  into a folder on an external drive, imported them straight into LR on the fly, and found myself able to work away on image adjustments in LR and PS while the scanner continued its slow, tedious grinding in the background. By the time I had done image adjustments on a batch of six pictures, I found another six were saved and ready for import, into the same folder, no fuss - and hey presto, there they were in the LR library waiting for attention while more were being added to the original folder. Those already in LR won't be duplicated if you tick only the pics you want to import as you go along.

Sure, there  are plenty of improvements we would all like to see in LR – my immediate priorities are better output sharpening, better cloning and healing (I just can't get used to it in LR for any detailed work), the ability to make selections - all of these and more are already well documented shortcomings and, hopefully, solutions are on the way in some shape in future releases.

Anyway, I think LR is here to stay and will only get better – recent update misfortunes notwithstanding.

Sorry for going on at length.
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