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Author Topic: Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?  (Read 5808 times)

dwdallam

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« on: March 10, 2008, 08:48:31 pm »

I'm pretty tired of Adobe's 2, 000US suites and their ongoing inability to create solid software that doesn't need patching every month.

When I first loaded CS3 I, and others, had multiple problems running it in Vista64, and Acrobat didn't even work.

I have the latest version of CS3 extended and things have worked "ok" but there are still missing options in various parts of Bridge, attributed to it not being completely Vista 64 compatible yet.

Then there was the buggy ACR 4.2 release. Now we have a patch for the patch at 4.3.1

I posted another thread on that issue because it won't work no matter how many hoops I jump through following the Adobe website suggestions.

Well, I'm fed up with it. I'm stuck like everyone else using Photoshop, which is still fairly solid, but I'm out of luck using ACR any longer. I'm not at all happy with Bridge either as when you need to update it there are hoops you have to jump through. Even Photoshop 10 to 10.1 has "hoops" and from the Adobe website, you can't update PSCS3 unless your install directory is the default name. I have no idea why the programmers at Adobe can't use a Windows registry to find the install directory, but it seems beyond them. On Adobe's website, they recommend that if you have named your install directory other than the default name, to REINSTALL CS3 using defaults--just to UPDATE PSCS3!

Anyway, I'm, on the move to get away from a now bloated and sometimes nonfunctional product--and don't get me going on the Acrobat auto update that you CANNOT turn off, nor the Bonjour service that you cannot turn off NOR uninstall from your system once you load CS3. You can only disable it using Application Services.

I'm ready to move away from Adobe completely. Any suggestions of RAW converters, and yes even a new Photo manipulation software, maybe Corel?

Has anyone used Bibble? How about Canons RAW converter? How does it stack up to ACR or Lightroom?

Thanks much.

PS--please no comments on how easy it was to install CS3 on YOUR computer and how you have no problems. Thousands of people are having problems with Adobe's updates and CS3. If you are not using Windows Vista 64 and CS3, then you may not have these problems, but do a search and you will see I'm not exaggerating.
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Jack Flesher

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 09:12:19 pm »

Yer not gonna like this answer either... but it sounds to me like your problem maybe is Vista 64 and not Adobe.  I know LOTS more folks that have had issues with Vista 32 AND 64 than ever did with Adobe.

Good luck,
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2008, 11:26:11 pm »

I can't imagine trying to do serious work on any "middle of the road" Microsoft OS until it has been out (with patches) for at least a year. For a more off-beat MS OS like Vista 64 I would certainly wait at least two years before trying to install anything more demanding than Solitaire.

I agree with Jack. You're pointing your finger at the wrong culprit.

But I must thank you for being a pioneer. When you get all the bugs worked out, I may consider trying Vista 64. Meanwhile, CS3 works just fine on XP Pro with SP2.
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John.Murray

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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 12:07:41 am »

I'm running LR, CS3, Bridge and Acrobat on Vista 64 with few issues.

As a windows application developer, I can well understand the challenges faced by not only Adobe, but also by users.  

Altthough I tend to "know what I'm doing"  I can't imagine installing CS3 in *any* location *other* than the default directory.

A 'registry setting' indicating the install directory is simplistic:  Entries in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE will do that, but we also need to handle User specifics settings in HKEY_CURRENT_USER, not to mention file associations in HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT.  State management is often handled in HKEY_CURRENT_CONFIG, but there are exceptiions . . . .  get the drift?  And don't forget, they also happen to build functionally identical applications running under OS X.

I know you are frustrated but calling ACR 4.3 a "bug" fix of ACR 4.2 just isn't correct - from Adobe:

http://www.adobe.com/special/photoshop/cam..._431_ReadMe.pdf


And Bonjour:

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewConten...00982&sliceId=1

In Windows it runs as a service - easily disabled.

My biggest frustration with Bridge has been caching - this is where Jeff Schewe's Real World Camera Raw has been invaluable.  I currently have "Automatically Export Caches to Folder when Possible" checked, which makes moving my external drives between my Desktop and Laptop a  breeze.  In addition, if a Cache does get corrupted, you are only dealing with that folder . . .

I have used Canon's DPP and greatly prefer ACR.  I know both continually upgrade, but I wonder what incentive Canon has to support my now discontinued 30D?

hth - John
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 12:22:55 am by Joh.Murray »
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Jonathan Ratzlaff

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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 12:50:04 am »

At a Tim Grey seminar this weekend.  the issue of Vista 64 came up.  Seems to be a problem with 64 bit operating systems.  Very little support for applications for that especially for drivers and such.  Recommendation is to use 32 bit operating systems for serious work.  Just not enough demand to get it to work.

So it may not be Adobe afterall.  Just the fact that you are using Vista64 and the operating system and your application don't get along
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redbutt

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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 01:43:36 am »

Keep in mind I'm NOT on Vista, rather XP, and have no intention at all of installing Vista, so your mileage will vary with the following.  I tried Bibble and hated it.  The Canon software also didn't really do it for me.  I don't care for Lightroom either.  I liked the early betas, but then the interface got all cluttered and I find it's just not for me.  I use CaptureOne 3.7.8 (with my 1D Mark2 and a PhaseOne back).  There are a few frustrating things that I've learning to deal with and work around, but I really like the output.  I can NOT recommend the new CaptureOne 4.  I had nothing but problems installing it and once installed it ran absurdly slow.  The PhaseOne techs don't know what's up with my experience, but I'm not the only one that has had severe performance issues.  So, check out CaptureOne 3.7.8.  Try it for the full 30 day trial...it took me 2 weeks to get used to it.
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dwdallam

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 05:05:05 am »

Quote
Yer not gonna like this answer either... but it sounds to me like your problem maybe is Vista 64 and not Adobe.  I know LOTS more folks that have had issues with Vista 32 AND 64 than ever did with Adobe.

Good luck,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I really do hope that is the case Jack, since I really don't want to change programs, and I really do want Adobe to be a good company--for purely self interest!
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dwdallam

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 05:06:02 am »

Quote
I can't imagine trying to do serious work on any "middle of the road" Microsoft OS until it has been out (with patches) for at least a year. For a more off-beat MS OS like Vista 64 I would certainly wait at least two years before trying to install anything more demanding than Solitaire.

I agree with Jack. You're pointing your finger at the wrong culprit.

But I must thank you for being a pioneer. When you get all the bugs worked out, I may consider trying Vista 64. Meanwhile, CS3 works just fine on XP Pro with SP2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I knew I should never have gone to Vista 64, and just stayed with my trusty XP PRo.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 05:08:54 am by dwdallam »
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dwdallam

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 05:08:37 am »

Quote
Keep in mind I'm NOT on Vista, rather XP, and have no intention at all of installing Vista, so your mileage will vary with the following.  I tried Bibble and hated it.  The Canon software also didn't really do it for me.  I don't care for Lightroom either.  I liked the early betas, but then the interface got all cluttered and I find it's just not for me.  I use CaptureOne 3.7.8 (with my 1D Mark2 and a PhaseOne back).  There are a few frustrating things that I've learning to deal with and work around, but I really like the output.  I can NOT recommend the new CaptureOne 4.  I had nothing but problems installing it and once installed it ran absurdly slow.  The PhaseOne techs don't know what's up with my experience, but I'm not the only one that has had severe performance issues.  So, check out CaptureOne 3.7.8.  Try it for the full 30 day trial...it took me 2 weeks to get used to it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It just never ends, does it?
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dwdallam

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2008, 07:26:59 am »

Quote
At a Tim Grey seminar this weekend.  the issue of Vista 64 came up.  Seems to be a problem with 64 bit operating systems.  Very little support for applications for that especially for drivers and such.  Recommendation is to use 32 bit operating systems for serious work.  Just not enough demand to get it to work.

So it may not be Adobe after all.  Just the fact that you are using Vista64 and the operating system and your application don't get along
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180532\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've done more investigating and the instructions on the Adobe website say "Windows" but what they really mean is Windows XP. You can't even follow their directions in Vista 64 or 32 because the directories DO NOT EVEN EXIST IN VISTA.

I uninstalled CS3 and Reinstalled it, which took around two hours because the process, for some unknown reason, is very slow. After reinstalling I copied the new RAW file to the directory where it resides in Vista. Then I manually deleted the files that Adobe says to delete, which are not in the location they say they are because they don't seem to know Vista is an operating system yet. Vista has what is called "roaming" files which pretty much prevents your applications from getting infected with a virus. However, there are three folders called Local, local roaming, and Local Low Level Roaming. Now in Vista you can NOT access the folder "documents and settings" because they "roam." So you need to use the directory "Users" "Computer or user name" then you can find "application data."

My conclusion is that Camera RAW 431 is NOT compatible in Windows Vista 64. In fact, if you try to use it, you lose all RAW functionality. And, you can't simply copy back over the old file. It still won't work. I even manually deleted all references to preferences in the registry and manually found and deleted the cache files. As of now, Bridge is left a smoking relic by Vista 64, worthless for RAW work. I wonder if we're expected to either stay with an aging OS for who knows how long, and forget about any performance increase from dual and quad core 64bit CPUs and OSs simply to run Adobe's RAW converter, or either, yes folks, UPGRADE to Lightroom--given that it even works in Vista 64.

I have no idea how the new RAW plugin corrupted my entire adobe registry so that no RAW files will open, but they did it.  It works fine with jpgs and such, but Photoshop will no longer open using the RAW plugin. And when I upgrade my 5D to the 1DS MKIII, I won't be able to use ACR either, since it won't work in Vista.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2008, 07:33:03 am »

Quote
I'm running LR, CS3, Bridge and Acrobat on Vista 64 with few issues.

As a windows application developer, I can well understand the challenges faced by not only Adobe, but also by users. 

Altthough I tend to "know what I'm doing"  I can't imagine installing CS3 in *any* location *other* than the default directory.

A 'registry setting' indicating the install directory is simplistic:  Entries in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE will do that, but we also need to handle User specifics settings in HKEY_CURRENT_USER, not to mention file associations in HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT.  State management is often handled in HKEY_CURRENT_CONFIG, but there are exceptiions . . . .  get the drift?  And don't forget, they also happen to build functionally identical applications running under OS X.

I know you are frustrated but calling ACR 4.3 a "bug" fix of ACR 4.2 just isn't correct - from Adobe:

http://www.adobe.com/special/photoshop/cam..._431_ReadMe.pdf
And Bonjour:

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewConten...00982&sliceId=1

In Windows it runs as a service - easily disabled.

My biggest frustration with Bridge has been caching - this is where Jeff Schewe's Real World Camera Raw has been invaluable.  I currently have "Automatically Export Caches to Folder when Possible" checked, which makes moving my external drives between my Desktop and Laptop a  breeze.  In addition, if a Cache does get corrupted, you are only dealing with that folder . . .

I have used Canon's DPP and greatly prefer ACR.  I know both continually upgrade, but I wonder what incentive Canon has to support my now discontinued 30D?

hth - John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180525\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You also have to disable Acrobat's updater. I shouldn't have to go into services to disable a program from accessing the internet--that's similar to a back door program compromising your system. No company has the right to use my computer to access the internet without my permission.

Also note that the Bonjour service isn't named correctly in the services panel. You have to know what it is called, which is simply a long string of numbers. I've read this has been fixed, but my inclination, and others, is that Adobe didn't want people turning it off, so they left it with an unidentifiable name. You would think they would be wiser than that. The computer security watchdog groups were all over that one and exposed it in days. I still don't think Adobe admits that you can't turn it off without using services.

But more importantly:
Do you have ACR431 installed on your Vista 64 machine? I'm curious is you found the folder Adobe says where it resides--because it isn't there. Because that folder doesn't exist in Vista 64. So I'm curious that if you have 431 installed on a Vista 64 machine, where did you find the raw plugin file, and how did you go about updating it?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 07:36:35 am by dwdallam »
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Farmer

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Adobe's crappy quality control and alternates?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2008, 07:38:13 am »

I'm sure you know this, but are you installing everything as Admin (ie right click) and are you leaving on UAC? (if you turn it off, it can be a problem if something isn't installing correctly).

I have a Vista 64 Ultimate test bed that runs CS3 Extended 10.0.1 just fine.

Also, was interested in your comment that 10.0.0 -> 10.0.1 was somehow difficult.  I just downloaded the patch (for XP SP32, OS X, Vista 64, etc) and ran it - no problem.

I'd also suggest installing everything in default locations unless you have some extraordinarily good reason to do otherwise.  I know it used to be an issue with hard drive space and operating system footprints and all that, but these days space is so abundant there's no real reason to move it anywhere else.  The OS is optimised to having things where it expects as are the apps, generally.
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Phil Brown

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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 08:00:36 am »

Quote
I'm pretty tired of Adobe's 2, 000US suites and their ongoing inability to create solid software that doesn't need patching every month.

When I first loaded CS3 I, and others, had multiple problems running it in Vista64, and Acrobat didn't even work.

I have the latest version of CS3 extended and things have worked "ok" but there are still missing options in various parts of Bridge, attributed to it not being completely Vista 64 compatible yet.

Then there was the buggy ACR 4.2 release. Now we have a patch for the patch at 4.3.1

I posted another thread on that issue because it won't work no matter how many hoops I jump through following the Adobe website suggestions.

Well, I'm fed up with it. I'm stuck like everyone else using Photoshop, which is still fairly solid, but I'm out of luck using ACR any longer. I'm not at all happy with Bridge either as when you need to update it there are hoops you have to jump through. Even Photoshop 10 to 10.1 has "hoops" and from the Adobe website, you can't update PSCS3 unless your install directory is the default name. I have no idea why the programmers at Adobe can't use a Windows registry to find the install directory, but it seems beyond them. On Adobe's website, they recommend that if you have named your install directory other than the default name, to REINSTALL CS3 using defaults--just to UPDATE PSCS3!

Anyway, I'm, on the move to get away from a now bloated and sometimes nonfunctional product--and don't get me going on the Acrobat auto update that you CANNOT turn off, nor the Bonjour service that you cannot turn off NOR uninstall from your system once you load CS3. You can only disable it using Application Services.

I'm ready to move away from Adobe completely. Any suggestions of RAW converters, and yes even a new Photo manipulation software, maybe Corel?

Has anyone used Bibble? How about Canons RAW converter? How does it stack up to ACR or Lightroom?

Thanks much.

PS--please no comments on how easy it was to install CS3 on YOUR computer and how you have no problems. Thousands of people are having problems with Adobe's updates and CS3. If you are not using Windows Vista 64 and CS3, then you may not have these problems, but do a search and you will see I'm not exaggerating.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am sure you know that Service Pack 1 (SP1) for Vista 32 and Vista 64 are now availible.  I use Vista 32 mostly and have found that after the SP1 install - that everything is much better with Bridge CS3.  The file copy speed has been vastly improved as well.  The double monitor profile, for multiple displays, now functions correctly.  The speed is the real difference most users will notice - very fast!  The graphics driver now performs like in XP, but even faster.  
On my high end Dell XPS laptop, with overclocking Core 2 Duo, and a 7950 GPU - well, the speed is more than impressive and far exceeds XP's performance.(I have two different HDs for the XPS laptop, one with Vista 32 (SP1) and one with XP)

The SP1 will be released to all Windows users this month - but if you look, you can get it now (bit torrent). Keep the faith, Vista is finally here.
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John.Murray

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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2008, 01:59:30 pm »

Quote
You also have to disable Acrobat's updater. I shouldn't have to go into services to disable a program from accessing the internet--that's similar to a back door program compromising your system. No company has the right to use my computer to access the internet without my permission.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Easy enough to do - run MsConfig.exe and turn it off, I've never seen updater do *anything* without your permission.  As far as permissions - did you realize that everytime your computer accesses anything on the network it's making a DNS request - most likely to a public DNS server?  Did you realize that just browsing pages here you have divulged your machine's (or router's) IP address, and Ethernet Adaper MAC address?  Did you realize that this forum has placed a cookie in your local machine's browser cache?

Quote
Also note that the Bonjour service isn't named correctly in the services panel. You have to know what it is called, which is simply a long string of numbers. I've read this has been fixed, but my inclination, and others, is that Adobe didn't want people turning it off, so they left it with an unidentifiable name. You would think they would be wiser than that. The computer security watchdog groups were all over that one and exposed it in days. I still don't think Adobe admits that you can't turn it off without using services.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Did you read the link I supplied?  The Windows service name is identified.  In addition, unlike all the "security" sites you are reading, Bonjour's purpose is clearly defined, it's purpose is to identify Version Cue Servers on the local network segment.  The only time Bonjour hits anything outside of your local segment is to check your machine for a valid DNS connection.

Quote
But more importantly:
Do you have ACR431 installed on your Vista 64 machine? I'm curious is you found the folder Adobe says where it resides--because it isn't there. Because that folder doesn't exist in Vista 64. So I'm curious that if you have 431 installed on a Vista 64 machine, where did you find the raw plugin file, and how did you go about updating it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, because I went ahead and let CS3 / Bridge install themselves in the default locations, I knew I could follow Adobe's directions and install to folder indicated.

C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS3\File Formats\

Again following the instructions, I'm carefull to rename  the existing [Camera Raw.8bi] file to [Camera Raw.43], or [Camera Raw.42] . . .

The bottom line is that the Camera Raw 4.3.1 module gets installed in the *same* folder as previous versions.  Since you state that previous version *did* work for you, I'm not sure what your specific issue is.  Have you tried searching for all instances of [Camera Raw.8bi] on your local drives?

Finally - the *main* reason I prefer a 64 bit OS is memory.  Even though PS is limited to 3GB and Bridge is similarly limited, each gets their *own* memory space on my machine (16Gb)  - not possible in a 32bit OS.  I'm fully aware of driver limitations, etc. - I did that homework prior to jumping in.

-John
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 03:18:47 pm by Joh.Murray »
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dwdallam

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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2008, 02:06:39 am »

Quote
Easy enough to do - run MsConfig.exe and turn it off, I've never seen updater do *anything* without your permission.  As far as permissions - did you realize that everytime your computer accesses anything on the network it's making a DNS request - most likely to a public DNS server?  Did you realize that just browsing pages here you have divulged your machine's (or router's) IP address, and Ethernet Adaper MAC address?  Did you realize that this forum has placed a cookie in your local machine's browser cache?
Did you read the link I supplied?  The Windows service name is identified.  In addition, unlike all the "security" sites you are reading, Bonjour's purpose is clearly defined, it's purpose is to identify Version Cue Servers on the local network segment.  The only time Bonjour hits anything outside of your local segment is to check your machine for a valid DNS connection.
Yes, because I went ahead and let CS3 / Bridge install themselves in the default locations, I knew I could follow Adobe's directions and install to folder indicated.

C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS3\File Formats\

Again following the instructions, I'm carefull to rename  the existing [Camera Raw.8bi] file to [Camera Raw.43], or [Camera Raw.42] . . .

The bottom line is that the Camera Raw 4.3.1 module gets installed in the *same* folder as previous versions.  Since you state that previous version *did* work for you, I'm not sure what your specific issue is.  Have you tried searching for all instances of [Camera Raw.8bi] on your local drives?

Finally - the *main* reason I prefer a 64 bit OS is memory.  Even though PS is limited to 3GB and Bridge is similarly limited, each gets their *own* memory space on my machine (16Gb)  - not possible in a 32bit OS.  I'm fully aware of driver limitations, etc. - I did that homework prior to jumping in.

-John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I understand that I allow network information to go out of my computer when accessing the internet, but that's my point: I know it and I allow it. I do not allow bonjuor and I do not allow Acrobat updater. And the cookies get deleted every time I close the browser--I get to make those rules because I use Firefox. The mistake in your logic is that you are saying that since you HAVE to give permission to specific programs to even access the internet, other programs that you do not give access to are ok also. That's an false premise. You better hope it's false too because if it is not, then software developers could use back door programs to send all sorts of information from your computer to wherever they wish it, without your consent.

As far as installations go, if you feel fine about putting things where you're told to put them without question, be all means make your life easier and follow the bell. I have specific reasons, valid reasons, for not putting things in that default location. Some of the reasons have to do with back ups and image software, drivers and restoring procedures that make restoring much easier and faster. Not to mention that when I put the OS on it's own partition, even on its own hard drive, it's not competing with other programs for hard drive head time, and the partition is keep tidy and small compared to loading everything in the C root. Now when you keep the OS partition small, it's speedier when accessing those core files, not to mention if you keep it on a separate hard drive completely.. Second, if I do a restore using Acronis of the C partition, nothing gets overwritten, like caches, program settings, and backup files. There are many reasons why I load the OS away from and independent of other programs. Last, NO other program has this problem of "default" only locations. Why Adobe? Even MS products have no problem with it. In fact, in all version of Windows from 95 up, you can actually change the default locations of installed programs and other things like swap files--so why would MS allow that if it were a problem? I don't understand why you would argue that a program that doesn't allow for it's OS's options is okay and fine. Not to mention that in Adobe installation instructions it says absolutely nothing about installing into a DEFAULT only location.

But let's get back to the issue:

Are you saying that Vista 64 creates a path for Adobe called:
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS3\File Formats\

I do not have that path. It's called:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS3\File Formats\

And that is where the old version of the RAW plugin reside.
When you do a search in Vista, you will also see a duplicate in a "roaming" folder because that is how Vista works to thwart Viruses, which I might add does a very good job of avoiding infection and root kits.

The reason I like 64 bit OS's is because they are 64 bit, the same reason I preferred 32 to 16. Also, I have a 64 bit multi-threaded CPU which does not get utilized in a 32bit OS like it does in a 64bit OS, although I understand the software has to allow that advantage. Finally, 64 bit is simply smokin' better for speed and multitasking when paired with a multicore and threaded CPU--vastly superior to 32 bit single core  CPUs and 32 bit OS's.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2008, 02:09:52 am »

Quote
I am sure you know that Service Pack 1 (SP1) for Vista 32 and Vista 64 are now availible.  I use Vista 32 mostly and have found that after the SP1 install - that everything is much better with Bridge CS3.  The file copy speed has been vastly improved as well.  The double monitor profile, for multiple displays, now functions correctly.  The speed is the real difference most users will notice - very fast!  The graphics driver now performs like in XP, but even faster. 
On my high end Dell XPS laptop, with overclocking Core 2 Duo, and a 7950 GPU - well, the speed is more than impressive and far exceeds XP's performance.(I have two different HDs for the XPS laptop, one with Vista 32 (SP1) and one with XP)

The SP1 will be released to all Windows users this month - but if you look, you can get it now (bit torrent). Keep the faith, Vista is finally here.
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I didn't know that. I'll happily apply that update as soon as I can download it! Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 02:10:04 am by dwdallam »
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