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DanSB

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« on: March 10, 2008, 02:41:55 pm »

I'm looking for a good photo printer at the 13" HP B9180 level and probably any of the newer Epson, Canon, HP, etc. printers would be fine for me. The problem I have is that I may be gone for a month at a time or may not need to do any image printing for even longer but then need to make a bunch of prints at one time. I have a Epson R800 with clogged heads as a result of this life style and head cleaning has not been effective. I also want to buy a small printer for my daily text printing so as to not waste so much ink by using the good printer for my daily stuff.

Two questions:
-- any suggestions which printer would best fit my need and,
-- what do you do when you don't use your printer for a while (power-down, leave power up, print once a week if possible, ...)

I just hate to throw another printer out and this type of info is never in reviews. Thanks,
   dan
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DLS

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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 03:33:15 pm »

Quote
I'm looking for a good photo printer at the 13" HP B9180 level and probably any of the newer Epson, Canon, HP, etc. printers would be fine for me. The problem I have is that I may be gone for a month at a time or may not need to do any image printing for even longer but then need to make a bunch of prints at one time. I have a Epson R800 with clogged heads as a result of this life style and head cleaning has not been effective. I also want to buy a small printer for my daily text printing so as to not waste so much ink by using the good printer for my daily stuff.

Two questions:
-- any suggestions which printer would best fit my need and,
-- what do you do when you don't use your printer for a while (power-down, leave power up, print once a week if possible, ...)

I just hate to throw another printer out and this type of info is never in reviews. Thanks,
   dan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180450\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can't comment as to a specific model, but I can tell you that I feel your pain. ;-)

I promised myself I would never buy another Epson printer because of issues like what you describe with every model I've owned. I'm sure there will be plenty of people defending their Epson's in this thread because apparently some have had better luck in that regard.

Anyway I've had persistant banding issues with Canon printers (2 different 13" models) which finally led me to the Z3100. It's had a couple bumps in the road (all having to do with handling the newer sensitive fiber papers) but HP has addressed them to my satisfaction after the hardware changes that they made under warranty. It is by far the best overall printer I've ever owned in every aspect: from color management to print quality to ink use and yes printing after it's been idle for a while. I leave it on like HP recomends and it maintains itself to be ready to print with no trouble so far.

I don't know how much of this applies to the B9180, but if I was looking for a smaller format printer that'd be the one.

Ken Bennett

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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 09:55:56 pm »

For several years I had nothing but bad luck with Epson printers. I actually had a 1200 Photo explode while I was making a print. Seriously. I bought an all-in-one for the family, and it stopped putting any ink down on the paper within a couple of months. My C80 black and white conversion had the most amazing banding on every print. Glorious. <sarcasm>

So I swore off printing altogether. My local lab did a fine job when I really needed a print. I went several years without a printer.

Then one day I visited a friend with an Epson 4000. Crappy printer -- banding and nozzle clogs galore, plus the black ink swap issue -- but when it decided to make a good print, they were very good indeed. It awakened something inside me that said, "Hey, you need to make prints."

So I bought an Epson 3800 last fall. It makes very nice prints when I use it, which is infrequently at best. I'll go several weeks without making a single print, then knock out a 16x20 on the first try, every time. No banding, no clogged nozzles, nothing but great prints. I have a drawer full of prints that I like, and I've been playing with different papers and thoroughly enjoying the process.

Printing is now fun, rather than an exercise in frustration.

Anyway, that's my experience with the 3800. Your mileage may vary.
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williamrohr

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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 10:43:49 pm »

My 7800 seems to function best if I run a daily nozzle check .. usually has a nozzle or two clogged but clears with simple cleaning mode.  My Z3100 had to be turned off for two weeks because of severe local power failures and clogged two heads that wouldn't clear .. had to replace them .. the good news being that replacing them is cheap.  So long as it is always running .. it performs regular cleaning cycles and is just fine.  I have a new 4880 which seems to clog less than the 7800 but not yet perfect.  The odd one is an original Canon IPF5000 ... for various reasons I wasn't using it so it sat turned off and unused for almost 6 months ... recently turned it back on and the first nozzle check was perfect ... for all the less than glowing reports ... it never seems to miss a  beat and with the new drivers a lot of the original complaints have been resolved.  Not a controlled study by any means but offered as additional data points.    Bill
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John Hollenberg

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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 11:06:01 pm »

We have not had any reports of nozzle clogging on the Canon iPF series printers on the iPF Printer Wiki.

--John
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NikosR

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 02:31:16 am »

I have not had any serious clogging issues with my 3800 and I have reported in this forum that I'm using it very interminently with the longest gap between uses being several months long.

With regards to the Canon / HP technology heads, isn't clogging hidden from the end user by the head using its spare nozzles when it recognises some are clogged? This is not a proof that clogging does not happen in my understanding.

 I understand that this strategy will give the appearance that clogging does not happen but any clogging that does happen, behind the curtains so to speak, will have an effect on the head's life.
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neil snape

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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2008, 03:06:34 am »

The days of the impetuous clogs are gone for all brands. The technologies are different for each brand, and Epson being Piezo is quite different than Canon and HP thermal heads.
The most advanced checking, correction, protection is HP. Yet as an above poster stated, if turned off for long periods , you remove this guarantee of non clog status.
Both the 9180, 8850, and Z series use the same head types. Obviously the Z3100 has 6 bi-heads and different nozzles sizes for the GE, etc. They all have remapping routines to extend the temporary or permanently clogged nozzles. I doubt that this would be necessary on Piezo heads.
There are timed and counter set interval nozzle checks with adjusted intensity depending on printer model. The idea is the heads fire say three droplets at a park position over an optical or electrostatic sensor which determines the cells efficiency or lack of. This information verifies, then sets flags to be cleaned with various levels of the cap, wipe , and firing stages, the time to do so, and if out of spec a remap algorithm is instated.
A large number of cells can be remapped without any visible difference, even under a loupe.
This process when left in action uses little ink and guarantees a clog free print condition at all times for the HP system. Is it necessary for others? Probably not. Yet a guarantee that the printing condition is on par with the expected operating state along with Closed loop calibrations tells you that the repeatability no matter the operating conditions is met with unusually high repeatability.
What I like about the HP heads is the simplicity in remove and replace, and the access to manually cleaning the heads if needed. Epson when clogged are a pain to clean manually. I don't know on Canon if the two heads are easily serviced by hand or not. But they are user replaced.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 04:38:14 am »

Quote
I have not had any serious clogging issues with my 3800 and I have reported in this forum that I'm using it very interminently with the longest gap between uses being several months long.

With regards to the Canon / HP technology heads, isn't clogging hidden from the end user by the head using its spare nozzles when it recognises some are clogged? This is not a proof that clogging does not happen in my understanding.

 I understand that this strategy will give the appearance that clogging does not happen but any clogging that does happen, behind the curtains so to speak, will have an effect on the head's life.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In the end the number of heads to replace should then be an indication of the clogs with HP heads (and Canon heads). One year running a Z3100 here and no head had to be replaced. Intermittent use, running 10 hours a day and then again a week or more idle.
There are 12762 nozzles on this machine and there are 1440 nozzles on an Epson 9880. About 9 HP nozzles against 1 Epson nozzle.  Epson can not afford the substitution of a nozzle by a spare one like HP (and Canon) can but that doesn't mean the HP will sacrifice that nozzle right away when it is underperforming. It will try to rescue that one but not at all costs (=ink down the drain). If that fails it will be substituted. And at some point that head (one of six) will need to be replaced at a cost of 50$ or something alike. Cheaper than a twin pack of 130 ML carts. Replaced by the user who will have a spare set if he's a pro or can order one from more suppliers that stock them. If one of the Epson nozzles fails consistently another scenario follows involving a service man and an expensive head. Cost of ownership has many factors like ink use, cleaning time and ink used, the time the printer is not functioning or not working optimal (higher resolution and slower speed to hide any banding for example), service contract price etc. Right now it doesn't look like the HP scenario is worse in practice and for me so far it has been better.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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01af

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 09:17:56 am »

Another data point for the Epson Stylus Pro 3800. I bought mine in September 2007 (i. e. half a year ago), and I've had no clogged nozzles yet. The printer is sitting idle for a week or two occasionally and once was idle for four weeks. No problems yet.

When not using it for longer than one or two days I switch it off but keep the power connected, as recommended in the user manual. When not using it for a shorter period (e. g. over night) then I don't switch it off but just let it fall into stand-by mode. When returning to print mode after a longer period of inactivity, it will perform some nozzle cleaning automatically ... not so after short periods of inactivity. Seems the printer knows what's good for him and how to keep himself healthy.

-- Olaf
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theophilus

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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2008, 05:43:21 pm »

I have let my 3800 sit for over a month before, and just needed to do some nozzle cleaning.  Other than that no issues.
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Brian Gilkes

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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 04:25:00 pm »

Epson's nozzle clogging takes a while to kick in . If you don't use the printer much, or don't cut cotton papers in the printer, it takes longer. If you clean the head and parking bay ,nozzle blocks can be reduced. Get it properly done with an Epson service, and you get back to like new.
I'm predicting that by the end of this year nozzle clogs will not be an issue . With this and ink swaps out of the way, and quality differences marginal, speed will be the issue for production houses and cost of machine and media for all I guess.

BTW I still think quality is an issue with anyone who is fussy. That does not include most users by my observation. Most people just do not see the difference. For those that do I still think Epson has the edge. Piezo heads just control droplet size and placement better than thermal heads.
As always, I'd love to be proved wrong.
Of course we are assuming optimum files going to the printer. Usually this is not the case.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2008, 05:20:38 am »

Quote
Epson's nozzle clogging takes a while to kick in . If you don't use the printer much, or don't cut cotton papers in the printer, it takes longer. If you clean the head and parking bay ,nozzle blocks can be reduced. Get it properly done with an Epson service, and you get back to like new.
I'm predicting that by the end of this year nozzle clogs will not be an issue . With this and ink swaps out of the way, and quality differences marginal, speed will be the issue for production houses and cost of machine and media for all I guess.

BTW I still think quality is an issue with anyone who is fussy. That does not include most users by my observation. Most people just do not see the difference. For those that do I still think Epson has the edge. Piezo heads just control droplet size and placement better than thermal heads.
As always, I'd love to be proved wrong.
Of course we are assuming optimum files going to the printer. Usually this is not the case.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Z3100 that I use gets Photorag, German Etching, Aquarella feeded 80% of the time. Art papers, 100% cotton or Alpha Cellulose. In the past year I have taken out the heads twice to clean them manually as it sometimes drips after a long period of idleness. No accumulation of paper fiber observed though which has been different with the Epsons I had. The printer realigns the heads perfectly again after they are inserted again. No need for a serviceman, calls to HP or request on mailing lists.  For me the first clogless year is already behind me.

On image quality: my eyes are not bad either. What I have seen in the new Epson dithering (3800, 11880) is an increased use of the smaller droplets if compared to the  older models and by that less use of the entire droplet range. Bringing the 3 brands ditherings and image qualities quite close. Dmax on matte is superb with the Z3100. Sharpness, gamut, dynamic range, gloss, is excellent on gloss papers as well. B&W on matte possibly only surpassed by dedicated custom B&W printers. For B&W gloss I do not see competition yet.  

It is a wonder that a Z3100 user doesn't get arrogant right away when the printer is unloaded from the truck.

[a href=\"http://www.inkjetart.com/3800/index.html]http://www.inkjetart.com/3800/index.html[/url]
shows the dithering pattern of the 3800 compared to the 4800, halfway page.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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mfunnell

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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2008, 06:04:09 am »

For what its worth, my Canon Pro 9500 has given me no problems despite irregular use.

    ...Mike
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2008, 09:32:40 pm »

A 'good news' story about my Epson 7600, which is a larger printer than you're considering I know, but never mind.

I turned on the printer for the first time in 5 months a few days ago. I was expecting some serious nozzle clogs. The first automatic clean was not sufficient to produce a perfect nozzle-check pattern. I did a second clean and voila! Perfect pattern.

I couldn't believe it. I'd been away from my studio for 5 months and all it took was 2 nozzle cleans to get my printer back in business?

But all was not well. The first prints I made were awful. They seemed to be almost completely lacking in magenta. I printed my own test pattern consisting of a few stripes of a variety of colors from the swatches palette. Sure enough, there was a huge problem with orange type shades. I could get a pretty solid yellow and a pretty solid magenta, but deep orange which is basically about 70% yellow and 70% magenta, looked far too yellow. The results seemed completely contradictory.

I did another cleaning routine and confirmed that the nozzle-check pattern was okay, no gaps in the lines, but I still couldn't get oranges looking orange.

Naturally, I assumed that there must be some new incompatibility problem with the Epson driver or Bill Atkinson profile, perhaps as a result of the recent automatic updates that my Win 64 bit machine had installed, including CS3 v. 10.0.1 patch. But try as I may, uninstalling and re-installing drivers and profiles, I couldn't fix the problem.

Finally, as a last resort because the process consumes a lot of ink, I went into the maintenance menu and did a Power Clean. That fixed the problem. Beautiful prints again.

But there's a mystery here. There seems to be some sort of clogging that can take place which is not apparent on the nozzle-check pattern. Anyone got an explanation?
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gunnar1

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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2008, 10:58:36 pm »

No issues on my 9180 either. It sat for the better part of six months, part of that time unplugged, and with some maintenance I was able to revive it. The HP goes through a daily routine that prevents clogging yet wastes very little ink as long as you leave it plugged in and turned on.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2008, 08:53:12 am »

Quote
But all was not well. The first prints I made were awful. They seemed to be almost completely lacking in magenta. I printed my own test pattern consisting of a few stripes of a variety of colors from the swatches palette. Sure enough, there was a huge problem with orange type shades. I could get a pretty solid yellow and a pretty solid magenta, but deep orange which is basically about 70% yellow and 70% magenta, looked far too yellow. The results seemed completely contradictory.

I did another cleaning routine and confirmed that the nozzle-check pattern was okay, no gaps in the lines, but I still couldn't get oranges looking orange.

Naturally, I assumed that there must be some new incompatibility problem with the Epson driver or Bill Atkinson profile, perhaps as a result of the recent automatic updates that my Win 64 bit machine had installed, including CS3 v. 10.0.1 patch. But try as I may, uninstalling and re-installing drivers and profiles, I couldn't fix the problem.

Finally, as a last resort because the process consumes a lot of ink, I went into the maintenance menu and did a Power Clean. That fixed the problem. Beautiful prints again.

But there's a mystery here. There seems to be some sort of clogging that can take place which is not apparent on the nozzle-check pattern. Anyone got an explanation?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


There are several issues you have to take care off when starting a printer after 5 months idleness. First take the carts out and shake them thoroughly, pigment settling may have happened. That can also happen in the inklines, the dampers and the heads. If the inklines have pigment settling and worse clumping of pigment particles the demand of the ink may shift that problem to the dampers where the sieve is and should be the last protection for the head against particles bigger than it can handle. The nozzle test still can be good as the demand on ink then is little, a normal print will ask more ink and then the reduced capacity of the damper shows in color shifts or banding at the end of the stroke. It often is harder to see which channel is wrong, a magenta bias can be the result of reduced cyan and yellow channels etc. While your Power Clean did help in your case, in more severe cases the damper may get even more pigment agglomerations in the sieve by the higher ink demand and things get worse to the extent that the sieve can not be pulled open with cleanings anymore. Replacing dampers and cleaning the inklines may be necessary then. Worst case scenario.

With refilled carts or CIS systems there's another issue, bacterial growth (in dye inks especially) is no exception and they tend to clog the damper sieves continually. Normally a dye ink shouldn't give any problem as no pigment clumping can occur and the dye colorant stays afloat in the ink medium.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Ray

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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2008, 10:44:23 am »

Quote
There are several issues you have to take care off when starting a printer after 5 months idleness. First take the carts out and shake them thoroughly, pigment settling may have happened. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181877\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks. I'll do that next time. One problem is my little studio is in the countryside, outside of the city limits. Any call-out to an Epson technician would be very expensive.
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CJL

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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2008, 08:28:58 am »

I've had my B9180 for over a year now, and have not had a single problem of any kind.  I use it irregularly, and turn it off when I'm not using it, so it doesn't go through it's daily maintenance routine.  It sometimes sits for a month or more between uses, and I've never had a single clog.  

Whenever I would do this with my old Epson 1280 and 2200 printers, I would have to replace the entire set of ink cartridges before they would function properly again.  I've probably saved enough money in not wasting Epson ink to pay for the HP printer already!  
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wesley

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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2008, 01:52:03 pm »

Quote
I have not had any serious clogging issues with my 3800 and I have reported in this forum that I'm using it very interminently with the longest gap between uses being several months long.

With regards to the Canon / HP technology heads, isn't clogging hidden from the end user by the head using its spare nozzles when it recognises some are clogged? This is not a proof that clogging does not happen in my understanding.

 I understand that this strategy will give the appearance that clogging does not happen but any clogging that does happen, behind the curtains so to speak, will have an effect on the head's life.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have good experience with the 3800 here in Paris. Except in winter, when the humidity really went low, the printer clogged twice in 2 months. Someone on this forum suggested putting a humidifier next to the printer. I don't have one so I took the huge plastic bag that came with the printer, covered it and left an opened bottle of water *inside*  the bag next to the printer. That did the trick, no clogs this winter.

Best
Wes
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 02:24:01 pm by wesley »
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citizenjoe

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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 11:36:47 pm »

Quote
I have good experience with the 3800 here in Paris. Except in winter, when the humidity really went low, the printer clogged twice in 2 months. Someone on this forum suggested putting a humidifier next to the printer. I don't have one so I took the huge plastic bag that came with the printer, covered it and left an opened bottle of water *inside*  the bag next to the printer. That did the trick, no clogs this winter.

Best
Wes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182162\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's clever, I'm going to try it out here in Winnipeg.  It's a dry cold....

Cheers,
Hugh
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