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Author Topic: Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)  (Read 5952 times)

jake21

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« on: March 04, 2008, 03:32:31 pm »

I'm interested in buying a photo printer. I've done a wee bit of looking and reading and I am aware of the three technologies (thermal dye, pigment, dye ink) (though I am not exactly clear of the cost and IQ between them). It seems like there are only two choices in the 8x10+ category and it seems like there is a big cost increase from 8x10 to 11x14 so I figured I would be best off getting a 8x10 printer and then using a lab for any thing larger.

My understanding is dye printers give the best quality with regards to output and have the lowest cost (though longevity is a bit of an issue). Is this understanding accurate ?

As far as I can tell with the new MX printers from canon all three major vendors have solutions for pigment printers (which might be a happy medium between the three types).

I was thinking of the 6700D or MP710 (if dye based printer) or perhaps hp 8250 (which I think will take pigment inks but I think model does not use individual ink cartridges). Other have recommended R800 (but it seems like this model has a tendency to clog if not used often) and R1400 (I know nothing about this model)

Anyways, some basic comments on cost, IQ and perhaps a couple of models to consider would be helpful !
[I should mention I'm not concern about print speed as long as the printer can reliably print a 10 or 20 prints without manual intervention - also in computing cost I think it best to only consider OEM supplies.]

I would expect that I would print under 100 prints a year and print 3 or 4 times a month in batches (ala the printer will sit idle a bit so hopefully a model that does not require head cleaning or heads that clog easily.

Last but least I'm a bit confused just how long dye prints last. I think it is fine if a print without being behind glass but not in sunlight will last 10 years. Do the current crop of inks like chroma-life 100 last that long without significant fade or do I require pigment or thermal-dye ? My understanding is cost per print is lowest with canon dye and quite a bit more expensive with epson pigment.

I would like to focus on an 8x10 printer for both lower cost and reduce space but would consider an 11x14 printer.

I guess [to sum it up] is if I want prints to last 10ish years without special care but reasonable paper do I need the expense of pigment or subtherma-dye? Is the IQ from laser printers good enough to consider them? Is there a cost or significant IQ advantage of one vendor (canon) vs another vendor (epson?). Are there other advantages such as a vendor printer being lest likely to clog/jam if not used for 3 or 4 weeks ?

My instincts are to go with MP610 (canon) or IP4500 but maybe the value of pigment is great enough to consider R800 or MXxxx (I know nothing about hp line other than they recently entered the 'single' cartridge per colour age and some folks complain that the 'new' hp is nothing like the 'old' hp with regards to quality).


Thanks!
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marcmccalmont

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 04:06:11 pm »

I would consider an 11" or 13" printer because:
you will be disappointed with prints from a lab
you will use it more than you think if it is next to your computer
there are more choices
ink per ml will cost less
my Kodak dye sub was not near as good as the current ink jets
the latest pigmented inks are quite good
What is your budget?
Marc

remember ink and paper costs in one year will exceed your printer cost by a wide margin. research the cost of the inks per ml when you are evaluating the printers
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 04:09:11 pm by marcmccalmont »
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Marc McCalmont

Ken Bennett

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 08:53:53 pm »

What do you want to print? Basic snapshots for a photo album? Fine art prints? Handouts for family? Knowing that will help with the responses you get. If all you ever need are 4x6 glossies for the family, you don't need a huge printer. On the other hand, with some practice, you'll be able to make much better prints than your lab, so you may end up wanting a larger printer.

In my very humble opinion, the best image quality right now comes from pigment ink-jet printers. Most of the pro photo inkjets are pigment printers.

I still have a Kodak dye sub at the studio -- it's quick for contact sheets in a hurry, but the image quality is only mediocre.

Give us more info, and you'll get good responses.
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jake21

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 09:41:21 am »

Basic and advance snapshots - usually larger than 4x6 but 5x7 or 8x10 most likely size. Basic snapshot shoudl be obvious - advance snap shot would be a tripod setup for sunset or landscape sort of picture (where I might return to a location once or twice to get the colours or setting i'm looking for) but these are not too frequent.

Also are dye inks longevity good enough (10 years on quality paper but with or without glass) or should i target pigment and is there a huge difference in cost between epson, hp and canon and/or between dye and pigment inks? Last but least I suspect that the printer might sit idle for a month or so sometime so I'd like to avoid printers that tend to clog (I think this is true of the R800 from what i have read).

Thanks!

Quote
What do you want to print? Basic snapshots for a photo album? Fine art prints? Handouts for family? Knowing that will help with the responses you get. If all you ever need are 4x6 glossies for the family, you don't need a huge printer. On the other hand, with some practice, you'll be able to make much better prints than your lab, so you may end up wanting a larger printer.

In my very humble opinion, the best image quality right now comes from pigment ink-jet printers. Most of the pro photo inkjets are pigment printers.

I still have a Kodak dye sub at the studio -- it's quick for contact sheets in a hurry, but the image quality is only mediocre.

Give us more info, and you'll get good responses.
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jake21

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2008, 01:23:28 pm »

Anyone - pretty please ?
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Paul Sumi

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2008, 02:32:05 pm »

If I may give a contrarian point of view, if you are printing fewer than 100 4x6 to 8x10 prints a year, why not have Costco or a similar store print all of your photos (I assume that you are in the U.S.)?

In many cases you can send them your images on-line and either pick up your prints at a local store or have them sent to your home.  Print quality can be very good and I know several local advanced amateurs who use this sort of service.

Additionally, the overall cost will probably be less than buying your own photo printer.  It's not the cost of the printer, it's the cost of the consumables that's going to kill you.  If you think gasoline prices are high, wait until you have to buy new inkjet cartridges.  You can quickly spend more on consumables than the original price of the printer.

Now, OTOH, there are several good reasons to buy your own printer (and I think inkjet - dye or pigment - is the way to go):

1. Convenience trumps cost.  You may not live close to a Costco or similar store, not have access to fast Internet to upload image files, or simply want to be able to print anytime you want without having to leave your home.

2. Quality is paramount.  Making your own prints can be time-consuming, but rewarding.  Having your prints come out exactly like you envisioned is very satisfying.  You have contro over every step of the peocess.  The downside is that you will have to get into post-processing of images, learn about color management, use paper profiles, and calibrate your monitor. Note: you'd have to do this if you send out your images to be printed as well.

3. You may eventually want to make larger prints to hang on your walls, give as gifts, or sell.  Starting small and learning "on the job" will help you hone your skills and learn what works for you without a big initial printer investment.

Best,

Paul
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 03:28:53 pm by PaulS »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2008, 02:40:51 pm »

Quote
Anyone - pretty please ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Your desire to display them without framing for 10 years looks like the main problem with dyes. Two factors: ozone fading and light fading. Where RC papers can reduce the first problem the other problem remains with dye inks. For some dye inks a compatible paper may solve that enough for you but that's limiting the media choices and is probably more expensive per print. On matte papers you could expect both ozone and light fading creating problems within 10 years in bare bulb exposure.

[a href=\"http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/downloads/Haltbarkeit_Papiere-Cofo.pdf]http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/...apiere-Cofo.pdf[/url]

Then there's another thing, dye inks should be easier to print (though much has changed in pigment printing) and could be cheaper (Epson's Claria dye isn't though per ML) but color consistency isn't a strong point of dye inks. Probably due to humidity at printing time and during the display life there are  changes in  the color. One of the reason for proof printers to go for pigment prints these days, the color settles faster than with dye inks and the color stays after that so the customer talks about the same print when he receives his sample by mail.

In other words if the difference in cost per print is not that much you better use pigment inks.



Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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jake21

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2008, 10:42:42 am »

Which pigment printers would you recommend ? As far as I can tell canon does not have much to offer in the low end market. Other folks have recommended the R800 but it seems to have a high rate of clog if used infrequently. Are there any reasonable options from HP? Should I consider a colour laser printer ?



Quote
Your desire to display them without framing for 10 years looks like the main problem with dyes. Two factors: ozone fading and light fading. Where RC papers can reduce the first problem the other problem remains with dye inks. For some dye inks a compatible paper may solve that enough for you but that's limiting the media choices and is probably more expensive per print. On matte papers you could expect both ozone and light fading creating problems within 10 years in bare bulb exposure.

http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/...apiere-Cofo.pdf

Then there's another thing, dye inks should be easier to print (though much has changed in pigment printing) and could be cheaper (Epson's Claria dye isn't though per ML) but color consistency isn't a strong point of dye inks. Probably due to humidity at printing time and during the display life there are  changes in  the color. One of the reason for proof printers to go for pigment prints these days, the color settles faster than with dye inks and the color stays after that so the customer talks about the same print when he receives his sample by mail.

In other words if the difference in cost per print is not that much you better use pigment inks.
Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Moynihan

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 09:57:22 am »

Quote
Other folks have recommended the R800 but it seems to have a high rate of clog if used infrequently.

I have the Epson R800.
I longest I have gone between prints is about 2 weeks. No Clogging so far.
Very nice printer for color.
Cannot recommend for B&W. Have not been able to eliminate a very faint color cast even on matt paper surfaces.

If your printing will be color only, on 8 1/2 x 11, and print at least every two weeks (my experience, do not know about longer), I can recommend this printer.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 09:59:02 am by Moynihan »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2008, 05:20:20 am »

Quote
Which pigment printers would you recommend ? As far as I can tell canon does not have much to offer in the low end market. Other folks have recommended the R800 but it seems to have a high rate of clog if used infrequently. Are there any reasonable options from HP? Should I consider a colour laser printer ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not that familiar with the wide range of desktop models.

At A3 size the 3 manufacturers have a competitive model with pigment inks. Below A3 size it will be Epson mainly with a variety of pigment inks and printers. Depending on what you want to print: gloss or matte you could go for the dye + suitable paper combinations that deliver good gloss like the HP's Vivera dye desktop models or get one of the Epson A4 Ultrachrome pigment models like the R800 if gloss + matte has to be good and lasting too. That model isn't bringing nice B&W though, hard to keep the color neutral. The A3 models are in general more versatile in which case I would go for the HP B9180.

Laser printers are not at the image quality level of inkjet photo printers discussed here and the color is harder to keep consistent.  If that quality would satisfy you then there is also a wide range of inkjet desktops that fall between laser printer quality and the inkjet photo printers quality. For example the Epson Durabrite pigment ink models.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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E Slagle

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2008, 09:36:01 am »

For entry level pigment printers I own both the Epson R800 and the HP 9180.

Without reservation avoid the R800 at all costs! It is a clog machine first and a printer second-unless you are using it all the time; then of course you would not even be considering a 10" printer in the first place. The result is pitifully small ink carts that seem to evaporate with barely any use. Third party inks and Continuous Flow systems can be a trap with this printer as well--I learned the hard way.

The 9180, I think, is excellent. The HP/Hahnemühle profiles that come with the printer are wonderful thus lessening some color management issues and the prints are outstanding.

In my opinion I think using Costco, Shutterfly or another Continuous Tone "Lab" is the best way to go until you are willing to learn some basic Color Management and are willing to spend near a grand on a home print system (calibrator, papers, and printer).

The other alternative is to buy a dye printer (eg R1400) and Epson's RC glossy papers and have the printer manage colors and hope for the best. You may get fine results, you may find yourself quite frustrated at times.

One more point in favor of a pigment printer that I'm not sure has been mentioned in this thread yet: pigment printers offer so many wonder paper choices in comparison to dye printers. At first this may seem overwhelming but it is one more reason why pigment rules. It's the Chemistry!

Cheers, Eric
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jake21

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Which 8x10 printer (and printer technology)
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2008, 10:02:52 am »

Hum... Almost sounds like I should go with the Canon MP970 for casual printing and other utility and then use a lab for 'best' results or prints I wish to keep...


Quote
For entry level pigment printers I own both the Epson R800 and the HP 9180.

Without reservation avoid the R800 at all costs! It is a clog machine first and a printer second-unless you are using it all the time; then of course you would not even be considering a 10" printer in the first place. The result is pitifully small ink carts that seem to evaporate with barely any use. Third party inks and Continuous Flow systems can be a trap with this printer as well--I learned the hard way.

The 9180, I think, is excellent. The HP/Hahnemühle profiles that come with the printer are wonderful thus lessening some color management issues and the prints are outstanding.

In my opinion I think using Costco, Shutterfly or another Continuous Tone "Lab" is the best way to go until you are willing to learn some basic Color Management and are willing to spend near a grand on a home print system (calibrator, papers, and printer).

The other alternative is to buy a dye printer (eg R1400) and Epson's RC glossy papers and have the printer manage colors and hope for the best. You may get fine results, you may find yourself quite frustrated at times.

One more point in favor of a pigment printer that I'm not sure has been mentioned in this thread yet: pigment printers offer so many wonder paper choices in comparison to dye printers. At first this may seem overwhelming but it is one more reason why pigment rules. It's the Chemistry!

Cheers, Eric
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