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Author Topic: Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?  (Read 3838 times)

RomanJohnston

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« on: February 25, 2008, 07:59:52 am »

If budget was no object, and your end product would end up being 60" wide prints, what digital setup would you all choose? My requirements are as portable and back packable as possable (non thethered shooting please) and I prefer wider angles and medium range lenses.

My current thoughts are:
Horseman SW-D ProII Body with a 39MP back. with the 24-55MM lenses.

Does ANYONE have any experience with this setup. I am considering this for weight, and the back slides 17MM in each direction for some serious stiching.

http://www.horsemanusa.com/digital/SWD2pro.html

Any thoughts or maybe some ideas I havent considered?

Roman
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Dave Carter

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 09:47:48 am »

I use an ALPA 12TC frame and digital back.  For landscapes, I do not even bring the viewfinder. I just carry the back, frame, tripod and several digital lenses.  Also, filters of your choice.  This setup does not have a sliding back, but is smaller and lighter then Horesman Pro.  If needed, I do stitching in photoshop.  I have not had a problem as long as I am careful to swing on the nodel point.

This is pretty hard to beat for weight, size and picture quality.  

(As an aside to this, I am currently making a very light weight Magnesium Pano holder for the 12 TC frame).

If you want sliding back for sure - Apla makes one, but it is bigger and heaver.  

Good luck with your choice.  I think the Horesman would be very good also.

Dave
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ericstaud

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 12:43:54 pm »

They only make 4 lenses for that camera, and they attach with little screws.  Look at the new Alpa MAX.  It is a little heavier, but a much more versatile system to buy into.

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...&detailpage=267

There are about 25 lenses listed on their site.  It is easy to click on pricelist, then register yourself, and then when you login you can see all the prices.
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RomanJohnston

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 02:18:42 pm »

Hummmm....also wondering the advantages of just going with the Hassy H3DII system so it is fully integrated.  The Zoom with a couple choice primes might give a good balance of portability along with a strong support structure if somthing breaks on the road.

This is definitly gonna require some thought.

Thanks for the timely answers and suggestions!!!!

Roman
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routlaw

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 10:32:30 am »

Roman this is an interesting dilemma and one that I have also pondered for quite some time though I don't have a situation where budget is no object. Even if I did I am not so sure at this point I would choose any of these options. Don't get me wrong in their own way they look like capable and effective systems for some things. Landscape photography as you know has its own unique requirements and set of problems to grapple with and while there are many practitioners out there using some very high end digital capture systems from the Betterlight scan backs to the H39 or Sinar Brons I have come to the conclusion none of them really fit the bill as well as, and dare I say it, view camera and film be it 6x9, 4x5 or even larger.

Allow me to elaborate. Hopefully others who have adopted a high end digital capture workflow will challenge my thoughts and perhaps prove me wrong. First lets consider the cost, most of the high end systems you mention can run a price tag of 30 to 40 grand or more especially with the cost of some of these wide angle lenses and cameras, you don't have to be Ben Bernanke to figure out one can buy a ton of film and processing for that investment, especially 120/220 roll film. And I would still be willing to bet a properly scanned 6x7 or 6x9 image will outperform the vast majority of the MF DB systems, the eMotion 75 with its macro scanning capabilities might be the exception. Film will loose out in dynamic range for sure but when it comes to realistic detail I am not convinced of most of the MF DB's. Color is too subjective and manipulative to bring into the argument and can be changed all too easy in PS anyway. One can shoot brackets with film, scan and HDR merge those scans for a higher dynamic range too.

But at the end of the day one of the biggest impediments I see is the issue of proper DOF, and nothing works with this better than a view camera and film. Yes there are systems which have TS lenses but you also have to take into account diffraction limits which are reached at F11-F16 if not sooner in the vast majority of cases, and expensive digital lenses not optimized to go beyond these apertures and the whole package starts unraveling pretty quick. With the Nikon D2x I can see a noticeable difference between F8 and F11 and no amount of stitching is going to make those F11 captures regain that softened detail. In the old days of large format film based capture, shooting at F16 was almost the equivalent of shooting wide open even with medium format. Put simply there is no digital capture system I am aware of that allows you stop down to say F45 or F32 with ample movements and still have an image worth looking at. And the larger the chip as in 39 mp backs the more exacerbated the situation becomes.

My first digital camera investment was in the mid-late 90's it was the Phase One Photo Phase scan back, not as good as the Betterlights but thats another story. For a vast amount of my studio digital capture I used the Rodenstock APO-Sironar 105mm digital lens and I can tell you with no uncertainty by F16 things were not looking so good and the linear array chips on that camera had much larger pixel cells than all of the MF DB's produced now days.

Bottom as of this moment is film is starting to look pretty good again.

Hope this helps.

Rob
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RomanJohnston

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 11:12:27 am »

Quote
Roman this is an interesting dilemma and one that I have also pondered for quite some time though I don't have a situation where budget is no object. Even if I did I am not so sure at this point I would choose any of these options. Don't get me wrong in their own way they look like capable and effective systems for some things. Landscape photography as you know has its own unique requirements and set of problems to grapple with and while there are many practitioners out there using some very high end digital capture systems from the Betterlight scan backs to the H39 or Sinar Brons I have come to the conclusion none of them really fit the bill as well as, and dare I say it, view camera and film be it 6x9, 4x5 or even larger.
Well, in the mix I want the ability to hike back and the kit needs to be more compact. I have a potential client that will be wanting VERY large (60" wide prints) and we are starting to hammer out a deal as they will need them from every area they service across the US. Architectural and Landscape shots will be needed. My D300 and super wide can handle the Architectural side as this is more for advertisements, (will probably end up getting the new 14-24 lens though for its corner performance, and maybe even the D3) but the landscape work will need big prints and I want to hike back to more remote locations and get them more original work. So a self contained lighter system will need to be my focus. I don’t want to lug around a laptop to attach to the system.

Quote
Allow me to elaborate. Hopefully others who have adopted a high end digital capture workflow will challenge my thoughts and perhaps prove me wrong. First lets consider the cost, most of the high end systems you mention can run a price tag of 30 to 40 grand or more especially with the cost of some of these wide angle lenses and cameras, you don't have to be Ben Bernanke to figure out one can buy a ton of film and processing for that investment, especially 120/220 roll film. And I would still be willing to bet a properly scanned 6x7 or 6x9 image will outperform the vast majority of the MF DB systems, the eMotion 75 with its macro scanning capabilities might be the exception. Film will loose out in dynamic range for sure but when it comes to realistic detail I am not convinced of most of the MF DB's. Color is too subjective and manipulative to bring into the argument and can be changed all too easy in PS anyway. One can shoot brackets with film, scan and HDR merge those scans for a higher dynamic range too.
Well, the contract will offset the cost quite handsomely. And this is my opportunity to get into a well thought out medium format system. I have been quite pleased viewing Elizabeth Carmel's success with the Hassy system, and yes I do understand its limits with diffraction.

Quote
But at the end of the day one of the biggest impediments I see is the issue of proper DOF, and nothing works with this better than a view camera and film. Yes there are systems which have TS lenses but you also have to take into account diffraction limits which are reached at F11-F16 if not sooner in the vast majority of cases, and expensive digital lenses not optimized to go beyond these apertures and the whole package starts unraveling pretty quick. With the Nikon D2x I can see a noticeable difference between F8 and F11 and no amount of stitching is going to make those F11 captures regain that softened detail. In the old days of large format film based capture, shooting at F16 was almost the equivalent of shooting wide open even with medium format. Put simply there is no digital capture system I am aware of that allows you stop down to say F45 or F32 with ample movements and still have an image worth looking at. And the larger the chip as in 39 mp backs the more exacerbated the situation becomes.
I work mostly wide to super wide, so it become less of a factor as hyperfocal distances become more manageable under these circumstances. I am guessing blending 2 shots at different focus points will also be an option. I owned a D2X, and currently own a D300 and fully feel the impact of diffraction. When I got my D2X, I went on a initial outing to Yosemite, and came back with work that would only present on the web as critical focus at f/16 to F/22 really ruined my efforts for any serious printing....I only had a few pieces at f/8- f/11. Lesson learned.  :~)


Quote
My first digital camera investment was in the mid-late 90's it was the Phase One Photo Phase scan back, not as good as the Betterlights but thats another story. For a vast amount of my studio digital capture I used the Rodenstock APO-Sironar 105mm digital lens and I can tell you with no uncertainty by F16 things were not looking so good and the linear array chips on that camera had much larger pixel cells than all of the MF DB's produced now days.
I have to say that Hassy system the micro lenses are doing an impressive job of filling the bit bucket. I have played with a Hassy Locally (very limited play time in an outdoor location) and I have a friend that was using the 39MP back east and he has sent me a CD full of files to play with and I am quite impressed.

Quote
Bottom as of this moment is film is starting to look pretty good again.
I can understand what your saying. I have to say though that I am a dedicated digital shooter, the immediate feedback and 100% control from start to finished product appeals to me strongly. Film definitely has it's place....and I understand what you are saying....I just see digitals benefits (at least for me) outweighing the film aspect.



Quote
Hope this helps.

Rob
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178220\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It has helped my thought processes quite a bit....and thank you kindly for your well thought out reply.

Roman
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 11:18:03 am by RomanJohnston »
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routlaw

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 01:14:04 pm »

Sounds like you have a pretty clear idea of what you want. I would however like to add just a few more comments to the equation but please understand its not suggesting what you should be doing to solve your problem just a conversation in general about the options. Congratulations on the lucrative contrast btw.

I am only aware of Elizabeth Carmels story via the internet, have not actually seen her printed images or files so its hard to comment in general about her success with DOF, however from my vague recollection of her website I don't recall her pushing the limits of near and far objects to a high degree thus requiring view camera movements or larger DOF. Understand too that when one of these companies finds a practitioner using their cameras in new ways they get behind them big time promoting the work in ways never achieved shooting film. From strictly a landscape and architectural point of view the Phase One systems seems the most appealing mainly due to their ability for long exposures and noise control vs the other options such as a Hassy setup.

Like you I also work with the wide to super wide, well when you can with a D2x as well as view cameras, however I would certainly disagree with you regarding hyperfocal distances not being a real issue with larger 39 mp chips, heck for that matter I run into with my D2x constantly even at F11 but especially at F8.

And yes by all means you could do a multi plane focus image. I have experimented with this manually and at least one program Helicon has a software plug-in though the company policy seems like a bit of a rip off as you are always having to repurchase your license to use unless I missed something. If there is another way I am all ears.

I too have been a died in the wool digital photographer from the first days of adoption and never would I have thought positively about the notion of shooting film again until just recently. This thought process was not reached easily for me and not without some struggle. But as much as I hate to admit it landscape photography at least in the classical sense seems better served today by film compared to even the best digital solutions under most but certainly not all circumstances.

Anyway good luck with whatever you decide upon.

Rob

Quote
Well, the contract will offset the cost quite handsomely. And this is my opportunity to get into a well thought out medium format system. I have been quite pleased viewing Elizabeth Carmel's success with the Hassy system, and yes I do understand its limits with diffraction....

I work mostly wide to super wide, so it become less of a factor as hyperfocal distances become more manageable under these circumstances...

I am guessing blending 2 shots at different focus points will also be an option...

I can understand what your saying. I have to say though that I am a dedicated digital shooter, the immediate feedback and 100% control from start to finished product appeals to me strongly. Film definitely has it's place....and I understand what you are saying....I just see digitals benefits (at least for me) outweighing the film aspect.

Roman
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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RomanJohnston

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 02:34:00 pm »

Quote
Sounds like you have a pretty clear idea of what you want. I would however like to add just a few more comments to the equation but please understand its not suggesting what you should be doing to solve your problem just a conversation in general about the options. Congratulations on the lucrative contrast btw.

I am only aware of Elizabeth Carmels story via the internet, have not actually seen her printed images or files so its hard to comment in general about her success with DOF, however from my vague recollection of her website I don't recall her pushing the limits of near and far objects to a high degree thus requiring view camera movements or larger DOF. Understand too that when one of these companies finds a practitioner using their cameras in new ways they get behind them big time promoting the work in ways never achieved shooting film. From strictly a landscape and architectural point of view the Phase One systems seems the most appealing mainly due to their ability for long exposures and noise control vs the other options such as a Hassy setup.

Like you I also work with the wide to super wide, well when you can with a D2x as well as view cameras, however I would certainly disagree with you regarding hyperfocal distances not being a real issue with larger 39 mp chips, heck for that matter I run into with my D2x constantly even at F11 but especially at F8.

And yes by all means you could do a multi plane focus image. I have experimented with this manually and at least one program Helicon has a software plug-in though the company policy seems like a bit of a rip off as you are always having to repurchase your license to use unless I missed something. If there is another way I am all ears.

I too have been a died in the wool digital photographer from the first days of adoption and never would I have thought positively about the notion of shooting film again until just recently. This thought process was not reached easily for me and not without some struggle. But as much as I hate to admit it landscape photography at least in the classical sense seems better served today by film compared to even the best digital solutions under most but certainly not all circumstances.

Anyway good luck with whatever you decide upon.

Rob
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178267\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well..the contract isnt cemented yet.....so this is just more knowing what I am up against if I move forward and we both have a strong meeting of the minds.

Sounds like I might want to pop over to the local pro shop and rent the H3D system for a weekend with the wide lens and just experience first hand what I can expect with Hyperfocal distances.....and take it from there.

Thanks Rob for your input.

Roman
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 02:35:19 pm by RomanJohnston »
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lance_schad

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Ultimate Landscape Setup? Horseman SW-D ProII?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2008, 12:39:29 pm »

Quote
Well..the contract isnt cemented yet.....so this is just more knowing what I am up against if I move forward and we both have a strong meeting of the minds.

Sounds like I might want to pop over to the local pro shop and rent the H3D system for a weekend with the wide lens and just experience first hand what I can expect with Hyperfocal distances.....and take it from there.

Thanks Rob for your input.

Roman
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Roman,
I know that you mention that you were considering the Horesman SWD II, and I know that someone mentioned the ALPA MAX already, but have you considered the Cambo WDS?

The Cambo Wide DS is a nice solution that is solidly built and has seven lenses available from 24mm to 90mm. It allows for +20mm/-20mm Lateral Shift and +40mm/-20mm vertical Shift . The lenses are pre-mounted on special lens boards that are easily changed with a single lever. This is a very popular solution.

I agree with one of the previous posts that you should try these solutions out for yourself. One way is to go to a value added reseller of the equipment that has experience in working with these solutions. Another way if a value added reseller is to rent a system. We rent these systems and also will provide you a refund of the rental fee if you decide to make a purchase . This is great way to not make a very expensive mistake.

We are offering a few bundle opportunities from PhaseOne for the P25+ or P45+ with the Horseman SWD II and the Cambo Wide DS .

Some links with more information:
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com/solutions/wide-angle/]http://www.captureintegration.com/solutions/wide-angle/[/url]
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/cs_totaro_100907.pdf
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phaseone_horseman.pdf
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phaseone_cambo.pdf

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year
lance@captureintegration.com
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