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Author Topic: Double colour management  (Read 4344 times)

seamus finn

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Double colour management
« on: February 25, 2008, 06:50:45 am »

Why can't companies like Epson and Canon introduce a system which prevents double colour management? I have in mind a way which would allow either PRINTER MANAGES COLOUR or PHOTOSHOP/APPLICATION MANAGES COLOUR, but not both simultaneously. Am I right in thinking that the HP Photosmart Pro B8850 has this facility?
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digitaldog

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Double colour management
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 09:24:35 am »

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Why can't companies like Epson and Canon introduce a system which prevents double colour management? I have in mind a way which would allow either PRINTER MANAGES COLOUR or PHOTOSHOP/APPLICATION MANAGES COLOUR, but not both simultaneously. Am I right in thinking that the HP Photosmart Pro B8850 has this facility?
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You can't use Printer Manages color and Application Manages color at the same time. And if you look at the 2nd option, the key term here is Application. How is Epson and Canon supposed to control what Adobe and any other application does?

At some point, the user has to take responsibility to put the car in Drive not Reverse when they want to move forward.

IS printing way too complicated? Yes. Lightroom is a step in the right direction.
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seamus finn

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Double colour management
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 10:07:57 am »

Andrew,
I'm quoting here from a review of the HP printer on Photography Blog by Jon Canfield which reads: 'Printing from Photoshop CS3, the drivers are smart enough to know what color management settings you've selected. If Photoshop managed color is chosen in the Print dialog, the print driver will automatically select Application Managed and prevent you from performing double color management.'

How often have you and others told users over and over again to turn off COLOUR MANAGEMENT if using LET PHOTOSHOP MANAGE COLOURS? How often are bad prints caused by this simple omission? How much grief and stress does this cause in the digital printing world?

My question again: is this a way to make the process easier?

I think you misunderstood my first question. Far from suggesting that both be used at the same time, I'm asking for a system which ensures that only ONE is used.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 10:19:22 am by seamus finn »
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digitaldog

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Double colour management
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 10:46:09 am »

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If Photoshop managed color is chosen in the Print dialog, the print driver will automatically select Application Managed and prevent you from performing double color management.'

Makes no sense. It should select No Color Management in the driver.

Application or Printer Color Management IN Print (Photoshop) do different things indeed but neither will work correctly unless the actual print driver is set to match what's done in Photoshop.

IF you select Printer Manages Color in Photoshop, the driver can now take over (assuming it, and the OS are all taking the same language). Photoshop hands the data to the driver with a profile, the rest is supposed to happen in the driver itself. At least in theory. Printer Color Management IS supposed to make it easier on the user by letting the data go to the driver and having the driver take over. Unfortunately PMC doesn't always work.

Application Manages Color does the conversions and passes that onto the driver. As far as I know, there is absolutely no communications from Photoshop telling the driver "I managed the color, now set yourself appropriately" although I suppose that's possible and something Adobe would like to work on with support from the printer manufacturers.

But the bit above "If Photoshop manages color, the print driver automatically selects Application Managed Color" isn't at all clear since Application Managed color is an option found directly IN Photoshop.
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How often have you and others told users over and over again to turn off COLOUR MANAGEMENT if using LET PHOTOSHOP MANAGE COLOURS? How often are bad prints caused by this simple omission? How much grief and stress does this cause in the digital printing world?
Application Manages color almost always works, Printer Manages color often doesn't. Application Manages color allows the application to handle the conversion, in the case of Adobe, using ACE and BPC. That's not the case with the printer handling this.
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My question again: is this a way to make the process easier?
Someday, when its reliable, maybe.
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DarkPenguin

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Double colour management
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 10:59:58 am »

I don't think my HP printer's driver has any choices other than printer manages color or application manages color.  My old epson did.
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seamus finn

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Double colour management
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 12:27:04 pm »

Every printing expert including Michael and Jeff in their excellent Camera to Print video tutorials recommend - no, insist - that the printer should NEVER be allowed to manage colour.

So, letting Photoshop manage colour means going into print properties, deselecting colour management which blanks out the relevant section of the window. You then have to select the paper etc but the critical thing is turn OFF colour management. Right?


Many users just forget to do this, or don't know they have to do it, and  end up double colour managing the print which makes a mess of it. They then spend many anguished hours wasting  paper and time to rectify a problem they really don't know how the solve. Sites like this are then flooded with distressed cries for help.

Once you decide to let Photoshop do the colour managing, it would be good if this choice alone automatically switched off the colour management for you, and forced you into following the correct procedure.

How hard can that be for printer manufacturer?  It may not be very sophisticated and might be regarded as an insult by professionals, but there must he thousands and thousands of users out there who wouldn't mind being taken by the hand and guided through colour management - a process which remains a mystery to so many.
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digitaldog

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Double colour management
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 12:29:16 pm »

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How hard can that be for printer manufacturer?  It may not be very sophisticated and might be regarded as an insult by professionals, but there must he thousands and thousands of users out there who wouldn't mind being taken by the hand and guided through colour management - a process which remains a mystery to so many.
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At least on the Epson driver, its sticky so you set it once and forget it. Or make a preset.
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Geoff Wittig

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Double colour management
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 01:18:07 pm »

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At least on the Epson driver, its sticky so you set it once and forget it. Or make a preset.
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The HP Z3100 printer driver is squirrely in a lot of ways, but it actually handles this part intelligently. When you choose application managed color in the printer driver's dialogue box, it automatically sets the Photoshop print dialogue box to match. The only way this can get confusing is when you decide to print black & white using HP's monochrome dialogue page. In this case you can choose toning options in the printer driver and pick printer managed color there; when you go back to Photoshop's print dialogue you actually leave it as "application managed color" because this gives the printer driver access to your chosen ICC profile for the paper you're printing on, ensuring a decent match to screen appearance. It's not exactly color managed, but certainly better than Epson's ABW mode.
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