Topic: MF vs MKIII information (Read 14812 times)

dwdallam · « **on:** February 23, 2008, 02:54:29 am »

Can someone give an outline how this works and the cost involved for each item, including lens choice? This is interesting to me and perhaps worth saving a year or two to invest in. Also, some pros and cons of using medium format compared to the MKIII, such as weather sealing, portability, and weight.

Please start without the components, such as back, body, etc. and their concomitant price averages. I mean how much is a 22MP MF system going to cost to get started?

Specifically, I've seen the video on the Phase one site:
http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb...troduction.aspx

It looks like a bloated 35MM digital with similar portability. I'm only interested in MFs that are of this sort of portability.

Thanks.

Morgan_Moore · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:06:28 am »

Quote

Can someone give an outline how this works and the cost involved for each item, including lens choice? This is interesting to me and perhaps worth saving a year or two to invest in. Also, some pros and cons of using medium format compared to the MKIII, such as weather sealing, portability, and weight.

Please start without the components, such as back, body, etc. and their concomitant price averages. I eman how much is a 22MP MF system going to cost to get started?

Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176836\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why are you considering MF ?

All the systems are expensive, slow overpriced and impractical with very few lense choices and have crap AF

I think a guide on price is about double canon for 22mp

There are of course specific reasons that MF can be the right choice for purchase but it would be nice to know yours !

S

marcmccalmont · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:16:19 am »

I recently jumped into MF on a budget. Mamiya AFD II (used), Phase 1 P30 (refurbished) etc. About $18 to $20k on a budget $40 -$50k cost no object. After a few months of use I would say a high end DSLR is a general purpose tool which can be used for many things (almost everything) the MFDB is a specialized tool for specific tasks. Tripod, backpack, a bunch of lenses etc. or studio use. The DSLR can be hand held for my daughters soccer games the MF camera cannot. I need a quick shot can't get it with the Mamiya. The files from my 5D/DxO have gorgeous colors the P30 takes work to get it looking good. The 5D looks good, the P30 looks detailed and accurate. I have been enjoying MF because it takes more effort and time, makes you work harder for the image. If you need speed or light weight DSLR, If you have time and 30-40 lbs doesn't bother you MF. I was surprised that the extra resolution did not make my prints look sharper but gave them smoother tones and more realistic details. I hope this partially answers your question.
Marc

Dustbak · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:58:32 am »

I basically ended up with using both MF as well as high-end DSLR. The MF I use for catalogue, packshots, still-life and most commercial work. The DSLR for everything I cannot use the MF.

Cost of MF is much higher than just double. Because I use it for work I figured I needed backup (2 backs, 2 bodies, etc..). Though MF backs are really reliable I still find they are somehow more vulnerable than a good DSLR. Backs kind of have an attitude, treat them well and they reward you, be careless and the results are below average.

I am addicted to the quality that comes out of the backs, color, detail, sharpness, etc.. Some clients can see this as well and some don't. I don't particularly care, I can see it and I enjoy using MF.

I would never consider MF as a replacement for DSLR or vice versa, the way of working and the results are too different.

Considering costs of a 22MP unit, that is very depending on how you are going to use it. If you can stay at 100ISO always the ZD is a very affordable option. All 22MP backs of all brands have things going for them, results from all can be outstanding. They can be bought for around 10K currently (second-hand) but I haven't been checking prices lately so maybe it is even less now.

Bodies and lenses vary greatly. Mamiya being the cheapest and widely available, Hasselblad H being the most expensive (not taking into consideration the new Hy6/Afi). Contax is somewhere in between. This is thinking about SLR style equipment.

I have also seen kits like the H3D22/39 come by as cheap as 13-15K (body/back/80mm). Maybe it is save to say you can get it for anything in between of 6K (Mamiya ZD) to above 15K.

TMARK · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2008, 05:06:02 am »

Deleted.

dwdallam · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2008, 06:25:19 am »

Did you guys watch the video from the Phase I site I posted? Let me know what you think about that system.

witz · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2008, 08:16:17 am »

I don't know man.....

I have both MFDB and a 1ds3 and I find that I can get fantastic images out of both and really rather prefer the ease of the 1ds3 over the mfd.

Now.... I'm a commercial shooter who relies more on my "style" than my gear to promote my work. Back in the 80's and 90's my primary tools were 8X10 and 4X5.. MF seemed small then and was really only used for lifestyle type work. Now a days I feel that it's really more about end result so I'm quite comfortable with the quality of images out of the 1ds3. I'm not saying the image is better... just that it's good enough for me. I'm actually more concerned with lens quality than I am anything else these days.

If my job was to shoot archival reproductions of art/paintings then I'd use mfdb

if it's editorial... 35d

fine art.... film

fashion/lifestyle....35d

tabletop product/food/drink..... 35d or mfdb

achitectual..... 35d or mfdb

Dustbak · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2008, 09:45:33 am »

I have had a look at the video you mentioned. Though I am a Nikon user I know for sure that everything that is shown in that video is handled better by the Canon!

None of the things specific to MFDB are being shown in that video.

Having said that, I know quite a few people that use phase&mamiya and are very happy with it. But... there will be something new from both Phase& Mamiya so it might be better to wait for that. Even when you are really opting for the AFDII & P25. I am quite sure those systems will be substantially cheaper after the introduction of a new system.

I don't know whether someone already has suggested it but try renting/borrowing this system first to get an impression.

amsp · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2008, 10:25:15 am »

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Did you guys watch the video from the Phase I site I posted? Let me know what you think about that system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No offense, but looking at your website I don't see why you would possibly need a DB. I say use what you got and develop your photography skills instead.

NicholasR · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2008, 11:33:14 am »

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If my job was to shoot archival reproductions of art/paintings then I'd use mfdb

if it's editorial... 35d

fine art.... film

fashion/lifestyle....35d

tabletop product/food/drink..... 35d or mfdb

achitectual..... 35d or mfdb
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hurray! Ding ding ding.

Only reason I got the mfdb was for #1. I was using 35d for architecture, a scanback for repro, and 6x12 for FA, but just put it all together for a one camera solution. Now I have an overly nice camera for my piddly little market in architecture and fine art work, which is fine too Let's not even go into the time saving for shooting a piece of art with a scanback. NEVER NEVER again.

Obviously if you are shooting fashion/lifestyle in a big city and booking high profile jobs I'd add MFDB there too.

witz · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2008, 12:02:43 pm »

Quote

Hurray! Ding ding ding.

Only reason I got the mfdb was for #1. I was using 35d for architecture, a scanback for repro, and 6x12 for FA, but just put it all together for a one camera solution. Now I have an overly nice camera for my piddly little market in architecture and fine art work, which is fine too Let's not even go into the time saving for shooting a piece of art with a scanback. NEVER NEVER again.

Obviously if you are shooting fashion/lifestyle in a big city and booking high profile jobs I'd add MFDB there too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

dude... I know.... I used a betterlight scan back for a few years and I've actually repressed it out of my memory until you brought it up! NEVER! I loved it when I was 3 minutes into a scan and the AC would kick on and drop the hotlights by 25%. Also.... thank god scuzzy has gone the way of the dodo bird!

here's a peak into the future.... I've been shooting HD video for the past few years, and my newest camera the sony xdcam-ex1 has such clean 1920X1080 still frames that they actually look pretty good in print! The RED digital cinema camera goes to 4K ( 4000 X ? pixels ) and shoots 24 frames a second for as long as your hardrive(s) can hold it..... that's a 12MP camera! imagine shooting continuously for 20 mins and then just grab the shot you want in post!

I want one! only $20k with an eos lens mount... full frame 35! price does not include a cart of hardrive riads!

NicholasR · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2008, 12:11:33 pm »

Quote

dude... I know.... I used a betterlight scan back for a few years and I've actually repressed it out of my memory until you brought it up! NEVER! I loved it when I was 3 minutes into a scan and the AC would kick on and drop the hotlights by 25%. Also.... thank god scuzzy has gone the way of the dodo bird!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ahahahah. Yeah, I've been there. Funny thing about running hotlights, it gets hot, then your AC comes on! Then I switched to fluros and had interference banding, then to HID's and started to go broke. Hell, maybe the hassy really wasn't that expensive! In workflow mode with repro including proof printing I am well over 3x faster. I charge less than I used to and actually make a profit on the shooting, I used to loose money on the shoot and regain in printing.

To the OP. Looking at your work I see nothing that MFDB will make any better, and can think of many things MFDB will make much more difficult. The 1DSIII is a really sweet camera. If you still feel like you need MFDB check out the mamiya bundle. Amazing price point if you shoot at iso 100.

Graham Mitchell · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2008, 12:28:55 pm »

Quote

I don't know man.....

I have both MFDB and a 1ds3 and I find that I can get fantastic images out of both and really rather prefer the ease of the 1ds3 over the mfd.

Now.... I'm a commercial shooter who relies more on my "style" than my gear to promote my work. Back in the 80's and 90's my primary tools were 8X10 and 4X5.. MF seemed small then and was really only used for lifestyle type work. Now a days I feel that it's really more about end result so I'm quite comfortable with the quality of images out of the 1ds3. I'm not saying the image is better... just that it's good enough for me. I'm actually more concerned with lens quality than I am anything else these days.

If my job was to shoot archival reproductions of art/paintings then I'd use mfdb

if it's editorial... 35d

fine art.... film

fashion/lifestyle....35d

tabletop product/food/drink..... 35d or mfdb

achitectual..... 35d or mfdb
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You missed out a few important things, imo.

MFDBs have better IQ at low ISO
MFDB will work on view cameras. Essential if you want to use lots of tilt/shift.
MFDB cameras offer much higher flash sync speeds (1/1000 on Hy6/6008 compared to 1/250)
MFDB cameras have larger viewfinders which help a lot with manual focus. Sometimes MF is necessary, and some people just prefer it.
MFDB sensors are easier to clean.

DSLRs have more wide angle lenses, and extreme telephoto too
DSLRs have rapid frame rate capability
DSLRs have lazy options such as shooting in JPEG format
DSLRs are better at high ISOs
DSLRs are cheaper and lighter

witz · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:08:01 pm »

Quote

You missed out a few important things, imo.

MFDBs have better IQ at low ISO
MFDB will work on view cameras. Essential if you want to use lots of tilt/shift.
MFDB cameras offer much higher flash sync speeds (1/1000 on Hy6/6008 compared to 1/250)
MFDB cameras have larger viewfinders which help a lot with manual focus. Sometimes MF is necessary, and some people just prefer it.
MFDB sensors are easier to clean.

DSLRs have more wide angle lenses, and extreme telephoto too
DSLRs have rapid frame rate capability
DSLRs have lazy options such as shooting in JPEG format
DSLRs are better at high ISOs
DSLRs are cheaper and lighter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

higher flash sync is only useful in certain strobe/avail light situations... one could always use ND or even put leaf shutter lens' on 35d cams

higher IQ is marginal other than resolution.

shift/tilt can be done with lens'

I personally feel that mfdb's main attribute is it's obvious professional physical appearance.

amsp · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:26:09 pm »

Quote

higher flash sync is only useful in certain strobe/avail light situations... one could always use ND or even put leaf shutter lens' on 35d cams

higher IQ is marginal other than resolution.

shift/tilt can be done with lens'

I personally feel that mfdb's main attribute is it's obvious professional physical appearance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

LOL Yeah, you got me there. I payed $20K to LOOK more professional. Give me a break.

witz · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2008, 05:26:20 pm »

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LOL Yeah, you got me there. I payed $20K to LOOK more professional. Give me a break.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hard to swallow huh?

I think it really depends who your clients are.

samuel_js · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2008, 05:40:05 pm »

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I personally feel that mfdb's main attribute is it's obvious professional physical appearance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a good one.
Now, what's the model you use that gives you that personal feeling?

RobertJ · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2008, 05:45:13 pm »

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only $20k with an eos lens mount... full frame 35! price does not include a cart of hardrive riads!

The RED camcorder is awesome, but it's actually not fullframe 35 as we know in the photographic world of 35mm film and Canon FF/Nikon FX. It's a Super35, which is 24.4mm x 13.7mm. Kind of like a D300 that shoots really fast.

Have you tried any of the 35mm adapters, like the Letus35 ( http://www.letusdirect.com ) on your Sony ex1?

I'd like to get back to shooting video someday. My old video rig is collecting dust.

witz · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2008, 05:47:23 pm »

Quote

That's a good one.
Now, what's the model you use that gives you that personal feeling?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the one with a built in self timer...hehe

James Godman · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2008, 06:34:42 pm »

To Dwdallam- I think you should use whatever equipment is going to fulfill your vision, or perhaps your client's vision, and for most pros that I know, this means several different types of cameras and several different formats. Don't let the equipment dictate the aesthetics of your pictures. Decide what you want to achieve and use the proper equipment. Of course, this means that you'll need to become familiar with many different types of equipment, and the differences, in order to choose what will work best.

Author Topic: MF vs MKIII information (Read 14812 times)

samuel_js