Lightroom workflow sharpening question?

[Photo Op]

Question to point me in the right direction for a workflow using DNG. I currently ingest DNGs to a working directory. I do initial review work on these DNGs in Bridge for keepers. Then I ingest into Lightroom for metadata and development work. Eventually, I will create TIFF derivatives for prints or further work in Photoshop. I am wondering about the best time to employ creative and output sharpening in this process.

Is is appropriate to Capture Sharpen using either a droplet or Batching from CS3 of the folder of DNGs before I ingest into Lightroom?

Is working in DNG the same as working with TIFF vis-a-vis PhotoKit Sharpening?

Is it appropriate to apply Output Sharpening on the DNGs after initial development processing in Lightroom or should it be applied only to derivatives?

--Dave

[KeithR]

Question to point me in the right direction for a workflow using DNG. I currently ingest DNGs to a working directory. I do initial review work on these DNGs in Bridge for keepers. Then I ingest into Lightroom for metadata and development work. Eventually, I will create TIFF derivatives for prints or further work in Photoshop. I am wondering about the best time to employ creative and output sharpening in this process.

Is is appropriate to Capture Sharpen using either a droplet or Batching from CS3 of the folder of DNGs before I ingest into Lightroom?

Is working in DNG the same as working with TIFF vis-a-vis PhotoKit Sharpening?

Is it appropriate to apply Output Sharpening on the DNGs after initial development processing in Lightroom or should it be applied only to derivatives?

--Dave
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Why don't you just bring your images into Lightroom instead of Bridge? The library modual is what you would use to make your initial edits. You can, if you wish, use the sharpening in LR as your capture sharpening. Currently, PK Sharpener can only be done after the image after it has been rendered(not RAW) so you would have to go into PS for that. You have to be in PS and working on a rendered(tiff, jpeg, psd, etc.)file to use PKS. Output sharpening is done on your print size. If you haven't seen Michael and Jeffs video tutorial on LR, I would highly recommend it. One of the first things that is discussed is converting to DNG and setting up files.

[Richard Anderson]

Is is appropriate to Capture Sharpen using either a droplet or Batching from CS3 of the folder of DNGs before I ingest into Lightroom?

No, DNG are RAW files- they can only be adjusted or sharpened in a RAW processor such as LR or ACR.

You can sharpen the DNG files in Lightroom by using the sharpen slider. The default is 25, but many prefer a setting between 50 and 75. You will need to have the File>catalog settings on "automatically update XMP", or you will need to "update metadata with preview" from the metadata menu in order to write this sharpening change to the embedded XMP. You can consider this 50-75 sharpening setting as "capture" sharpening. Be aware that only Full Size embedded Jpegs will be sharpened in this scenario- so if you didn't make full size Jpegs when you originally made the DNG, you should reconvert to DNG if you want the embedded Jpegs to appear sharpened.

Is working in DNG the same as working with TIFF vis-a-vis PhotoKit Sharpening?

NO. PhotoKit Sharpening only works on standard file formats like Tiff, Jpeg, PSD etc.

Is it appropriate to apply Output Sharpening on the DNGs after initial development processing in Lightroom or should it be applied only to derivatives?

Only apply Output sharpening to derivative files- and then only when they are final size, and you know how you will be printing them. You can also sharpen just on a layer- so that the sharpening can be redone if you resize the image, or decide to print it on different paper or with a different kind of printer.

Richard Anderson

[KeithR]

Is is appropriate to Capture Sharpen using either a droplet or Batching from CS3 of the folder of DNGs before I ingest into Lightroom?

No, DNG are RAW files- they can only be adjusted or sharpened in a RAW processor such as LR or ACR.

You can sharpen the DNG files in Lightroom by using the sharpen slider. The default is 25, but many prefer a setting between 50 and 75. You will need to have the File>catalog settings on "automatically update XMP", or you will need to "update metadata with preview" from the metadata menu in order to write this sharpening change to the embedded XMP. You can consider this 50-75 sharpening setting as "capture" sharpening. Be aware that only Full Size embedded Jpegs will be sharpened in this scenario- so if you didn't make full size Jpegs when you originally made the DNG, you should reconvert to DNG if you want the embedded Jpegs to appear sharpened.

Is working in DNG the same as working with TIFF vis-a-vis PhotoKit Sharpening?

NO. PhotoKit Sharpening only works on standard file formats like Tiff, Jpeg, PSD etc.

Is it appropriate to apply Output Sharpening on the DNGs after initial development processing in Lightroom or should it be applied only to derivatives?

Only apply Output sharpening to derivative files- and then only when they are final size, and you know how you will be printing them. You can also sharpen just on a layer- so that the sharpening can be redone if you resize the image, or decide to print it on different paper or with a different kind of printer.

Richard Anderson
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What?
"Full Size embedded Jpegs will be sharpened in this scenario- so if you didn't make full size Jpegs when you originally made the DNG, you should reconvert to DNG if you want the embedded Jpegs to appear sharpened."

Sharpening, like any edits within LR, are instructions that get applied when rendered, i.e. jpegs, tiff, psd, etc. Any changes to the LR file be it DNG or Raw will be there. How do you reconvert the DNG? All you have to do to save the LR changes to be is cmd/ctr S. The edits will be seen in the file in bridge and you can then open them through Camera Raw and do what ever pixel editing you want.  

"Only apply Output sharpening to derivative files.."   Correct

You can also sharpen just on a layer- so that the sharpening can be redone if you resize the image, or decide to print it on different paper or with a different kind of printer.
Again, what?

Output sharpening through PK Sharpener is done ON THE FINAL SIZE. With PKS, you pick whether glossy or matte and at what DPI. PKS THEN does it thing. Paper and printer have nothing to do with it.

A simplified workflow:
Injest into LR - You can injest as DNG directly from LR
Make GLOBAL adjustments
Control S to save.
Edit in PSCS3 (This can be entered directly from LR -control E)
File will open as a tiff in Photoshop
Do any addtional PIXEL editing (Local edits)
Resize to desired print size
At this point I make a duplicate and flatten if file size is big
Run PK Sharpener picking DPI and paper type(gloss or matte) and flatten again
Then make the print

[Richard Anderson]

What?
"Full Size embedded Jpegs will be sharpened in this scenario- so if you didn't make full size Jpegs when you originally made the DNG, you should reconvert to DNG if you want the embedded Jpegs to appear sharpened."

Sorry- I wasn't clear. When you create DNG files- you can embed no Jpeg, a medium sized Jpeg, or a Full Sized Jpeg. I'm pointing out that only the full sized Jpegs will be sharpened. I agree that when you export the DNG to Photoshop- it will of course be sharpened as per the XMP instructions.

Sharpening, like any edits within LR, are instructions that get applied when rendered, i.e. jpegs, tiff, psd, etc. Any changes to the LR file be it DNG or Raw will be there. How do you reconvert the DNG? All you have to do to save the LR changes to be is cmd/ctr S. The edits will be seen in the file in bridge and you can then open them through Camera Raw and do what ever pixel editing you want. 

This is correct. I was speaking about the embedded Jpegs in the DNG, see above.

"Only apply Output sharpening to derivative files.."   Correct

You can also sharpen just on a layer- so that the sharpening can be redone if you resize the image, or decide to print it on different paper or with a different kind of printer.
Again, what?

Again- sorry not to be clear. What I mean is that by sharpening on a layer- you can discard that layer if your sharpening needs change. The underlying file is protected in this scenario.

Output sharpening through PK Sharpener is done ON THE FINAL SIZE. With PKS, you pick whether glossy or matte and at what DPI. PKS THEN does it thing. Paper and printer have nothing to do with it.

PK sharpener sharpens differently not only for different sizes, but also for many other parameters, like paper, printer type etc. I'm just suggesting that you can sharpen non-destructively by keeping the sharpening on a layer. Actually- PK does this by default..After you run PK sharpening- you end up with layers. If you don't flatten those layers- you have the option of discarding them and starting over to sharpen for a different purpose.  This same technique- sharpening on a layer can be done with other sharpening methods- like Smart Sharpen, Unsharp Mask, Nik Sharp etc.

A simplified workflow:
Injest into LR - You can injest as DNG directly from LR
Make GLOBAL adjustments
Control S to save.
Edit in PSCS3 (This can be entered directly from LR -control E)
File will open as a tiff in Photoshop
Do any addtional PIXEL editing (Local edits)
Resize to desired print size
At this point I make a duplicate and flatten if file size is big
Run PK Sharpener picking DPI and paper type(gloss or matte) and flatten again
Then make the print

This is a good workflow, but IF you flatten after running PK sharpener- you have locked in the sharpening. Of course if you have kept an unsharpened duplicate- then you are able to repurpose the file sharpening wise. I am suggesting that by sharpening on a layer, or keeping the PK sharpening layers, you only have to keep track of one file- and yet can sharpen it differently later by discarding or turning off the previous sharpening layer.

I hope that is more clear.

Richard

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