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Author Topic: colour space  (Read 3979 times)

gerdoms

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colour space
« on: February 15, 2008, 07:18:50 am »

hi new face on here so apologies if i may be going over old ground.  

just completed a course around using canon 1dmk3. have a 5d & used to shoot raw but was convinced to shot at least with the 1d in jpeg. i already had camera/lightroom/cs/printer working in srgb. however reading articles ref lightroom colour space it seems that i would be better placed were i to adopt pro-photo as my colour space throughout the chain.

i use a r2400printer (well now i have the new drivers to match leopard   ) & wonder can the experts advise me the best approach. with my limited experience & technical know how  (sometimes a little knowledge is worse than none at all) thus far is that for hi contrast areas i cannot get detail that i can see on my mac monitor. as an aside i have the ll video on printing but it is not clear on this issue.

i know obvious but just for info the camera can only work in adobe rgb or srgg but lightroom & cs & printer recognises pro-photo. and i do have preserve embedded profiles active in cs.

what colour space should i use in camera to maximise colour printing capabilities & would you advise to switch to pro photo as working spaces in all applications to gain maximum colour quality in the printer driver.

attached is an example of an image which i am attempting to print.

i hope someone can at least direct me down the right path.

thanks in advance.

gerry
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01af

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colour space
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 08:45:18 am »

ProPhoto RGB is the widest of all RGB colour spaces---but that does not mean it will lead to maximum colour printing capabilities (except when you have a printer which natively covers ProPhoto RGB, which you haven't). Using ProPhoto RGB as the working space makes sense when working from raw but doesn't when working from JPEG.

Shooting in JPEG format, in turn, makes sense only when 1) ease and speed of processing from camera to web or print, or 2) memory usage on limited card space, or 3) both are of paramount importance. Otherwise, better shoot raw (or Raw+JPEG).

When shooting JPEG then use sRGB or Adobe RGB as the camera's colour space and as your image-processing working space. Use sRGB when your target is web or digital images on CD for end users; use Adobe RGB when your target is prints or digital images on CD for expert customers. When in doubt or when working for both kinds of target, use Adobe RGB but don't forget to convert to sRGB eventually when appropriate. When shooting JPEG, you must take a decision as to which in-camera colour space to use, you should avoid unnecessary colour space conversions as much as possible (in other words, in-camera colour space and working colour space should match), and you should never convert from a smaller into a wider colour space.

-- Olaf
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digitaldog

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colour space
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 09:26:45 am »

Quote
ProPhoto RGB is the widest of all RGB colour spaces---but that does not mean it will lead to maximum colour printing capabilities (except when you have a printer which natively covers ProPhoto RGB, which you haven't).

Not so. And we'll never have a printer that natively covers ProPhoto RGB (or for that matter any RGB working space based on a theoretical emissive output device). Simple matrix profiles of RGB working spaces when plotted 3 dimensionally illustrate that they reach their maximum saturation at high luminance levels which makes sense when you consider what they are based upon. The opposite is seen with print (output) color spaces. Printers produce color by adding ink or some colorant, working space profiles are based on building more saturation by adding more light due to the differences in subtractive and additive color models

As for the OP, I'd recommend this PDF:
http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/phscs2ip_colspace.pdf
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gerdoms

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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 10:36:43 am »

thanks both.

andrew many thanks & yes an interesting & informative article (my eyes were glazing over a bit towards the end  ). essentially i think i am like many in this world of digital that feel they get mugged by an expert daily! and this mugging is successful because its all "black magic" & it seems the goal posts keep shifting & for most of us we just take it for granted. i knew a fair amount of this but have conveniently forgotten it or been convinced i just didn't know! either way i suppose i'm gerry & i'm confused fits well. nonetheless the advice is understood; stick to what you know & understand unless you know enough to change!

if the r2400 is unable to operate in pro-photo colour space then its pretty simple; i am not going there! just need to tell lightroom that since i set preferences to that when i got the new version.

thanks for the quick & non judgmental response! i'm going printing!

gerry
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 10:38:07 am by gerdoms »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 11:41:27 am »

Quote
if the r2400 is unable to operate in pro-photo colour space then its pretty simple; i am not going there!

That's not the case. You CAN use a document encoded in ProPhoto RGB and convert that to the output color space to that printer and paper. The printer itself can't produce ProPhoto RGB (or sRGB, or Adobe RGB (1998) etc). These are all different color spaces. One group are editing color spaces, the other are output color spaces (all the profiles that Epson installed for you to use with your R2400).

There's the color gamut of the scene you hope to capture. There's the gamut of a working space which you hope is as large or larger than that captured data (or you clip colors you captured). There's the gamut of the output device. The editing space, in this case ProPhoto RGB is large enough to contain the captured colors and send that to a printer without clipping, something Adobe RGB (1998) can't do.
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John S C

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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 01:44:09 pm »

There is an interesting section in Michael Reichmann and Jeffe Schewe 's Fine Art printing video, where they examine the color gamut of a digital image.

You can clearly see that there are components of the image that are outside the Adobe  color space, but are  "captured " by ProPhoto.

The section also goes on to explain why it's important not to clip these colors by using a smaller color space, even if you printer can not reproduce them.

John C
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 01:44:59 pm by chappers »
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alainbriot

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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 02:01:16 pm »

Gerry,

1-Shoot in Raw format and convert your photographs to Pro PhotoRGB in 16 bit.  

The Raw format is color-space independent so you only need to concern yourself with which color space you are converting the images into

2-Keep the images in 16 bit all the way until you send them to the printer.  

3-Let the printer do the conversion to the paper/ink profile of your choice.

Alain
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 02:01:44 pm by alainbriot »
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John.Murray

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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 04:01:35 pm »

I'd 2nd Chappers recommendation!  The video series is a must have.  Also, Andrew has a wonderful presentation about soft-proofing & printing within photoshop:

http://digitaldog.net -> https://admin.adobe.acrobat.com/_a227210/p84783897/

-John
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bjanes

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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 04:35:11 pm »

Quote
Simple matrix profiles of RGB working spaces when plotted 3 dimensionally illustrate that they reach their maximum saturation at high luminance levels which makes sense when you consider what they are based upon. The opposite is seen with print (output) color spaces. Printers produce color by adding ink or some colorant, working space profiles are based on building more saturation by adding more light due to the differences in subtractive and additive color models

As for the OP, I'd recommend this PDF:
http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/phscs2ip_colspace.pdf
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually Greg Ward points out in his article on digital encoding that  in "most RGB encodings the color space comes to a point at the maximum white, thus the color range is more limited near the maximum. ...We see how quickly the color gamut collapses near the top end. Saturated colors in this space [sRGB] are necessarily dark, especially in the blues and purples.". This is illustrated in a Quicktime graphic on Greg's web site:

[a href=\"http://www.anyhere.com/gward/hdrenc/colorspaces.html]Color Space Animations[/url]

The quote is taken from the text accompaning the graphic.

The parent article is about high dynamic range encodings and I have found it very useful.

Greg Ward Encodings
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gerdoms

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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 05:40:46 am »

once again smashing feedback.

i have the mr video & thats why perhaps i got suddenly confused ref pro-photo & then started to question whether or not i was really grasping this stuff. it is for some extremely confusing. though listening to andrews on line adobe seminar helps a great deal to demystify this considerably (reading does not always = learning for me listening is my preferred channel). i also have in the past relied rather arrogantly on eye ball calibration & while viewing the seminar i found it easy to discern the subtle changes when andrew was toggling through the soft proofing its clear to be absolutely (90%) positive of controlling the whole process i have ordered the x rite display calibration tool.

well now i feel a lot more comfortable with what to do in future & although some of this demands attention to detail in different circumstances i feel confident moving forward. thanks a million for this advice it means a lot to me

gerry

     
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Craig Murphy

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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2008, 09:55:42 am »

Good thread but not using any capital letters where they should be used makes it slightly difficult to read your postings.
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davidh4976

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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2008, 05:30:46 pm »

I just completed a bunch of test prints for a print comparison session my photo club is doing.  I was surprised to find that the image source color space (prophoto or Adobe RGB) can make a difference with some printer drivers/profiles.  It even made a difference on some B&W prints using Epson ABW Mode.

I suggest you try it yourself on your printer, ink, and paper combination.  A good ProPhoto test image can be found at:
http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsigh...i048/essay.html

Try printing first straight from that,  and second after converting it to Adobe RGB.  You might be surprised.

You might also try to put a bunch of gradient circles on a test image and print them, too.  See what you get from differnet color spaces with your printer/ink/paper.  Let's see if I can attache a prophoto red gradient circle.  You can make others like that one and put them all in one image.
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