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Author Topic: Digital Black and White Prints  (Read 7092 times)

dwdallam

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Digital Black and White Prints
« on: February 14, 2008, 03:36:03 am »

Is there a consensus on what paper and what process to use when printing black and white prints from a digital image? Is Silver Gelatin the way to go? Can a machine using Fuji Crystal Archive paper and the Noritsu 3x line of emulsion printers (80, 000US production printers) capable of producing the quality of B&W prints that they do with color when compared to Gelatin prints?
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Sven W

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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2008, 06:57:35 am »

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Is there a consensus on what paper and what process to use when printing black and white prints from a digital image? Is Silver Gelatin the way to go? Can a machine using Fuji Crystal Archive paper and the Noritsu 3x line of emulsion printers (80, 000US production printers) capable of producing the quality of B&W prints that they do with color when compared to Gelatin prints?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Most of us on this forum prints b/w with inkjet.
Good printers + quality-papers + printerprofiles.
Many b/w printmakers also use special tech. such as ImagePrint, QuadTone, Piezography
or EpsonABW for getting the most beautiful b/w prints out.

I've tried before to print b/w on color-paper(Durst Lambda), and they looked quite good, but always with a tint or sometimes two tints. The "smaller" Noritsu or Fuji Frontier machines have also problem with drifting , which you  don't see on a color-print.
That is: The output gives a warm tone in the morning and maybe cooler in the afternoon.
Then you will have the problem with metamerism;
The print will not look the same in different lights.
Put it under a low-energy bulb and the print turns really red!!
/Sven
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 08:01:01 am by Sven W »
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Bruce Watson

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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2008, 11:45:19 am »

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Is there a consensus on what paper and what process to use when printing black and white prints from a digital image?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, there's no consensus. And there's not likely ever going to be any consensus whatsoever.

The different processes all have their own advantages and disadvantages. Which process is the right fit for a particular purpose can only be decided by the individual trying to make that fit.
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Geoff Wittig

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Digital Black and White Prints
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2008, 04:31:03 pm »

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Is there a consensus on what paper and what process to use when printing black and white prints from a digital image? Is Silver Gelatin the way to go? Can a machine using Fuji Crystal Archive paper and the Noritsu 3x line of emulsion printers (80, 000US production printers) capable of producing the quality of B&W prints that they do with color when compared to Gelatin prints?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Every form of output has its own aesthetic, its own strengths and weaknesses. Gelatin silver has been the gold standard monochrome photographic output since WWI, so it's a known quantity with a wide range of interpretive and toning options. It does require toxic chemicals and working "blind" until the print comes up, and paper choices are becoming more limited.
I have not personally worked with Fuji Crystal Archive paper for B&W output. Sounds like it should provide the virtues of Photoshop digital editing with "real" photochemical output, but you're dependent upon the color management skill and interest of the folks operating the (very expensive) machine.

Inkjet printing provides an almost unlimited range of paper and inkset choices, and you're in charge of the whole process start to finish, so the results can be exactly what you want. Issues such as metamerism, gloss differential and paper feel pushed many of us in the direction of cotton rag matte papers with matte black ink for the past 5 years or so. This provides a huge range of paper surface choices from smooth to heavily textured, a wide variety of paper base color, and toning options that are up to you. Resulting prints can be really beautiful, with smooth tonal distribution and great subtlety. Some intrepid printers go farther using dedicated monochrome inksets and drivers for even smoother tonality. The biggest limitation is the modest D-max (1.5-1.7) provided by matte black ink on rag paper. This aesthetic is gorgeous for some images, but quite different from gelatin silver prints.
Photo black ink on glossy/semigloss/satin paper provides another 'look', and recent paper/ink advances have overcome a lot of the previous issues. Newer printers provide a D-max in the 2.4 range, deeper than anything a traditional darkroom print can give, though semigloss/luster/satin papers have generally looked & felt more like resin-coated silver gelatin papers than the fiber based darkroom ideal, at least until recently. There are newer papers on a fiber base that promise a very close approximation to the silver gelatin standard. I personally feel each output form has its own aesthetic, and I love a few specific paper/ink combinations for my work, but that's simply my preference, and you will undoubtedly have your own.

Look at a range of different output forms, work with at least a few, and get a sense for what works best for your personal work. The process of figuring out what really makes your prints "sing" can be extremely rewarding.

Have fun!
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dwdallam

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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 01:21:43 am »

What about converting and processing the digital image in PS and then sending them out to a "dedicated" chemical B&W photo printer, such as those that advertise in B&W magazine, and advertise various options, gelatin, etc?
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 02:57:36 am »

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Is there a consensus on what paper and what process to use when printing black and white prints from a digital image? Is Silver Gelatin the way to go? Can a machine using Fuji Crystal Archive paper and the Noritsu 3x line of emulsion printers (80, 000US production printers) capable of producing the quality of B&W prints that they do with color when compared to Gelatin prints?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are Labs around the world that run B&W papers and chemistry in machines like Frontiers etc. Ilford and Harman make papers for that, at least it was announced in 2006 they would.
I have no experience with any of that and have been using a customised Epson inkjet for B&W quad printing till the HP Z3100 came along that offered a B&W quality better than what I got used too. You will never get the wide variety of B&W output choices in the chemical process that inkjet offers.

Here are some B&W inkjet related mailing lists:

[a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint[/url]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/


Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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JeffKohn

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Digital Black and White Prints
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 11:00:42 am »

My experience with a few test prints was that using something like a Fuji/Noritsu minilab with color chemistry doesn't work very well. You end up with the same color shifts that an inkjet printer gives you when it doesn't have multiple black/gray inks.

There are some labs that offer true B/W prints from digital images using B/W chemistry, but I haven't tried any of these yet. MPix offer these, as do some others.
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Sven W

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Digital Black and White Prints
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 12:34:02 pm »

Good pass, Geoff!

Here in Sweden I've only seen two labs printing descent(well) non-inkjet b/w prints.
One has a modified 24 inch Durst Lambda(250K usd+RA4 dev.), outputting on a thin, but true, Ilford RC-paper. Flat and muddy.
The other lab uses a huge LightJet, but also on RC-paper. Same results.
Heavy metamerism and curve-cross tints.

Compared to what you get with a newer Ep/HP/Can combo with Harman/Ilford/EEF/Innova, it's not even close in d-max and tonality. And what about permanence on these "true" RC-papers?
My last cents for inkjet!!! Waterbased pigment inks are ecological. No chemicals!

/Sven
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 04:51:48 pm by Sven W »
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dwdallam

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Digital Black and White Prints
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 11:17:49 pm »

So what I'm hearing here is that ink jets and their concomitant papers are preferred over traditional chemical and silver gelatin papers, for instance?
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mballent

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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 12:34:28 am »

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So what I'm hearing here is that ink jets and their concomitant papers are preferred over traditional chemical and silver gelatin papers, for instance?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175183\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is now to the point that people that have used chemicals can no longer tell that the output is now coming from an inkjet printer.  I have personally experienced it.  They saw the output from my Z31000 and they thought that it was a chemical print.  Whether its better or worse is up to you...
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CMPatti

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Digital Black and White Prints
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2008, 10:50:36 am »

I would disagree with this only by saying that, while my inkjet prints (Epson 3800 using the ABW setting and one of the new fiber-based papers) have a basic look that is very similar to traditional wet darkroom prints, the quality of the prints I'm getting is much better than anything I used to be able to achieve in the darkroom.

Quote
It is now to the point that people that have used chemicals can no longer tell that the output is now coming from an inkjet printer.  I have personally experienced it.  They saw the output from my Z31000 and they thought that it was a chemical print.  Whether its better or worse is up to you...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175194\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Geoff Wittig

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Digital Black and White Prints
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2008, 11:11:45 am »

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So what I'm hearing here is that ink jets and their concomitant papers are preferred over traditional chemical and silver gelatin papers, for instance?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175183\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't say preferred; they're just another form of output, with its own aesthetic virtues and faults. An expertly printed, carefully toned and archivally processed gelatin silver print is an object of great beauty. Very few people have the skill or patience to produce such an object, and the materials (i.e. printing papers) are becoming steadily more scarce and limited. Inkjet printing provides an expanding range of aesthetic possibilities. Yes, some inkjet prints using photo black ink on the newer fiber/gloss papers look fairly similar to gelatin silver prints; other paper/ink options provide completely different looks. Toned inkjet prints on cotton rag paper can look a lot like an expertly made platinum print, for example.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2008, 11:18:48 am »

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So what I'm hearing here is that ink jets and their concomitant papers are preferred over traditional chemical and silver gelatin papers, for instance?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175183\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes.

And I say that as one who has been dragged kicking and screaming into the "digital revolution" after over forty years of darkroom work. Even on my lowly Epson 2200 printer I can now get prints that are better than any I ever achieved in the darkroom. This means that in my spare time I am scanning the best of my old images and reprinting them on the Epson.

I don't say this lightly. I still have a great deal of nostalgia for gelatin silver prints. But the results, IMHO, are more important than the process used to achieve them.
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neil snape

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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2008, 12:47:41 pm »

I'd say that the inkjet B&W prints on the recent 3 or 4 grey ink printers provide a new option to the history of photography. They are not the same. Impossible to say they are better or worse but different. Being able to print a higher Dmax does not necessarily spell better or worse . Almost like a new B&W paper and toning technique arrives at a new means to an end.

Yet there is no question that the new inkjets do make accessing gallery and or museum quality prints available to anyone with a reasonable level of DTP skills. The new applications such as Lightroom offer the customisation of the raw data making a B&W processing more interesting than ever after the fact or capture.

I for one have/had terrible darkroom techniques, but absolutely master digital printing. Now only if I mastered photography to the same level.....
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dwdallam

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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2008, 11:35:36 pm »

This is the same thing people have been saying about the Noritsu 3 series minilabs used by Costco--although you never let Costco employees do any processing. They use the Fuji Crystal archive paper, which is nice and thick, and the prints are beautiful, if not sometimes color drifted depending on when you print, depending on how you preprocess on your end.

What about the Epson paper? I've read it is much thinner than the traditional gelatin paper? Is that a problem?
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Slaughter

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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2008, 09:31:35 am »

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No, there's no consensus. And there's not likely ever going to be any consensus whatsoever.

The different processes all have their own advantages and disadvantages. Which process is the right fit for a particular purpose can only be decided by the individual trying to make that fit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agree with that.

Ink jet printing has brought more control on the printing process when compared to wet traditional darkroom. But this control also requires a somewhat long learning curve. I have been able to do wonderful ink jet prints from pictures that were hardly printable on the wet darkroom by tweaking curves and using contrast masking. As for B/W prints, once you have linearize your paper/printer curve, it's deadly accurate for making prints.
There are indeed several processes for printing in B/W:

- ICC color profiles: simply a highly precise ICC color profile with accurate neutral tones around grey levels (all ICC profiles should be so...but....).

- Epson ABW: ABW is basically a good attempt by Epson for providing a linear metamerism-free B/W driver for their printer. The density response is quite linear for Epson papers but requires some profiling for other papers. Eric Chan uses B/W ICC profiles for linearing ABW response. I use another approach that I'll explain in my soon to be finished site. Canon has something close to ABW in their printer driver too.

- QTR (Roy Harrington - QuadTone RIP): highly versatile with a lot of controls. You can use whatever inks you want (apart from OEM inks). I have been told that the improvement of Epson Ultrachrome inks stopped making mandatory the use of non OEM inks for getting good B/W prints. As of today, you can rely on OEM inks for B/W prints, also expecting good archival features.

Whatever process you choose, be warned that what's important when printing with ink jets printers is the combination of printer with printing paper since different papers react differently to the inks. Simply said, you cannot assume that you can profile your printer for any available paper once and for all. For each new paper, you must calibrate. You can more or less assume (depending on the brand and model) that profiling a specific model of printer for some paper will also work on any other printers of the same model. This has been verified for Epson pro-printers (and also for R2400 if I'am right). This is controversial for latest high-end Canon printers. If this assumption is true for your printer, you can surf the net and grab some profiles done by other people.

I strongly recommend buying a spectro or densitometer because all the processes I mentioned require such a device in some ways. Colorvision Prinfix-Pro or X-rite Eye 1 will do the job. Although it could seem expensive at first, it will make you save time, energy and frustration.

Also, be prepared to face/enter the world of ink jet printing papers. The choice of printing papers for B/W is huge, especially when compared to the spare choice of silver printing paper.

Personally, I use Epson printers and print in B/W using profiled ABW. It took me some amount of time profiling my system (= linearizing the printer response). It took (and takes) me some amount of time testing papers because paper technology is still evolving. But I get better results using ink jets printing that I ever did with wet darkroom because I have more controls of the whole process. Once the printing process is mastered, it is incredibly rewarding. Once your workflow is profiled, it's like a piece of cake making prints. This has never been the case for me with wet darkroom. I don't regret all these hours spent in the red dark environment, smelling the acid vapors of the stop bath, while analyzing the inverted negated pictures, and then suffering the bright light for visually checking the test prints. I don't regret those 10 tiring hours sessions of wet darkroom. Oohhh not at all!

There is a learning curve with this new technology. Don't forget that for a long time, printing pictures was a job for some people (I don't speak about the guy that pressed the button at the mini-lab but the genuine "printer", the guy that can print your pictures in such a way that you will scream in wonder). Yep!, there's some work of your own to do.

_michel moreaux
Switzerland
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