H3D 22 v Phase One P25

[wcl4]

Interested in buying a MF back and I've narrowed it down to these two. My preference is for the Phase One to use with my H1, but I got the nagging down the line incompatibility with new lens thing going on in my head. For the H22, I think it's a fan driven cooling system which I don't like for durability reasons as well as in-the-field abuse. But the H3D, which I would be buying along with the back, seems compatible with the current lineup. Not to say this will be forever the case as the H3D II seems incompatible with everything other than Hasselblad items, and if new lenses do come down the line, the H3D will probably not work with them.

Thoughts on which direction? Convince me to get a Leaf if you dare! Thanks in advance.

[godtfred]

Interested in buying a MF back and I've narrowed it down to these two. My preference is for the Phase One to use with my H1, but I got the nagging down the line incompatibility with new lens thing going on in my head. For the H22, I think it's a fan driven cooling system which I don't like for durability reasons as well as in-the-field abuse. But the H3D, which I would be buying along with the back, seems compatible with the current lineup. Not to say this will be forever the case as the H3D II seems incompatible with everything other than Hasselblad items, and if new lenses do come down the line, the H3D will probably not work with them.

Thoughts on which direction? Convince me to get a Leaf if you dare! Thanks in advance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I only have a P45+ as Phase experience, but here goes:

Look closely at workflow and editing. If you like to start with a "blank canvas" and do you stuff in PS, go for the H3D, if you like a bit more "pre-baked" go for the P25.

I also do a lot of product shots in the studio, and both the P45+ backs I have tested have a couple of hundred kelvin of difference between the right and left side of the frame, regardless of lens choice. The H3D's I have had/tested (22, 31, 39, 39II) have not had any difference across frame. This may factor in your decision, but you need to look at the P series as I only have experience with P+.

On another note the P45+'s play a lot nicer tethered, where you can connect and disconnect as you please, I would expect the P25 to do the same. H3D's and Flex can be a lot more fiddly where all the settings have to be correct. The P series is also better on view cameras as you can shoot without an imagebank (although you do have to fire the shutter twice if you don't get optional accessories.)

There is no wrong choice here, they are both excellent systems.

-axel

[NicholasR]

Interested in buying a MF back and I've narrowed it down to these two. My preference is for the Phase One to use with my H1, but I got the nagging down the line incompatibility with new lens thing going on in my head. For the H22, I think it's a fan driven cooling system which I don't like for durability reasons as well as in-the-field abuse. But the H3D, which I would be buying along with the back, seems compatible with the current lineup. Not to say this will be forever the case as the H3D II seems incompatible with everything other than Hasselblad items, and if new lenses do come down the line, the H3D will probably not work with them.

Thoughts on which direction? Convince me to get a Leaf if you dare! Thanks in advance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll give the opposing Hassy H3D (non II) viewpoint.  I agree it's all about workflow, image quality should be close enough to be unimportant.

Fan cooling has been a non-issue.  I use it in varying outdoor conditions and it's never bothered me.  If you are going to abuse it enough to break the fan, may I suggest a canon 1 series?

Flexcolor IMO isn't the greatest piece of software.  We will be getting Phocus soon, so hopefully that should really help out the workflow.  A nice thing about Hasselblad (so far) is that upgrades both to software and firmware have been free of charge.

DAC and the 28mm lens are fantastic.

Tethered shooting does not present a problem for me, but all of my shooting has been done on the SLR body.  If I were planning on shooting on different platforms, such as LF or a plate camera, I would seriously lean towards a Phase one.  The fact I cannot run an internal power source on the back is probably my biggest gripe about the system, after the lack of a mid-wide tilt/shift lens.

[wcl4]

Thanks for your inputs. The gradual K difference from left to right is disconcerting. I agree both backs will give impressive results. From what I have seen, I tend to gravitate towards Phase although the only Hassy results I've seen is from an older Imacon 22 back. I suppose things have changed since. For the most part I will be shooting tethered full length and 3/4 type people shots.

I won't be shooting the back on anything aside from the Hassy body. I doubt I'd break the fan in the back, I'm just concerned about something getting in there. How does Flexcolor compare to the Canon software? I currently shoot with the 1Ds II, and though the software isn't the greatest, I can work around it without problem.

[kevinwilson]

Interested in buying a MF back and I've narrowed it down to these two. My preference is for the Phase One to use with my H1, but I got the nagging down the line incompatibility with new lens thing going on in my head. For the H22, I think it's a fan driven cooling system which I don't like for durability reasons as well as in-the-field abuse. But the H3D, which I would be buying along with the back, seems compatible with the current lineup. Not to say this will be forever the case as the H3D II seems incompatible with everything other than Hasselblad items, and if new lenses do come down the line, the H3D will probably not work with them.

Thoughts on which direction? Convince me to get a Leaf if you dare! Thanks in advance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have no experience of the H3D, apart from a colleague that has one who thinks it has some problems, however, he feels that he needs to work less on the file straight from camera. I have the P25+ and find it super.
Best answer is to try out both cameras, you should be able to get a loaner from Phase.
Also, I really like the files I get from C1.
Kevin

[pprdigital]

Interested in buying a MF back and I've narrowed it down to these two. My preference is for the Phase One to use with my H1, but I got the nagging down the line incompatibility with new lens thing going on in my head. For the H22, I think it's a fan driven cooling system which I don't like for durability reasons as well as in-the-field abuse. But the H3D, which I would be buying along with the back, seems compatible with the current lineup. Not to say this will be forever the case as the H3D II seems incompatible with everything other than Hasselblad items, and if new lenses do come down the line, the H3D will probably not work with them.

Thoughts on which direction? Convince me to get a Leaf if you dare! Thanks in advance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here's one problem you're going to run into - everyone you ask will tell you what they think. Then you have to separate fact from fiction. There's a lot of misinformation out there. Regardless what anyone tells you, try each product out and make sure you have a highly qualified professional to guide you that is completely familiar with each product. In fact, if you can, find someone who does not sell Phase One to show you Hasselblad, and find someone who does not sell Hasselblad to show you Phase One. Why? Just trust me on this.

Otherwise, here's some things to consider on the H3D side of things:

*The original H3D will work with lenses down the line. It is not Hasselblad's intention to continuously make lenses and incompatible bodies. They have made 1 lens so far that works on H3D on up (the 28mm). I would bet that future lenses will be H3D-only and forward, which likely leaves out Phase/Sinar/Leaf/H1/H2 combos. If you're happy with the available lens lineup for those combos right now, then they should be a consideration. I expect that we will see some sort of Hasselblad lens developments by Photokina this year.

*Regarding fan cooling, while the H3DII relies on a heat sink system that replaces fan cooling, the original H3D does employ fan cooling. That said, durability should not be a concern. In the past 5 years, I have never had a Hasselblad product that required any type of service or maintenance due to a fan issue.

*Software updates have always been free and there are no licensing restrictions to Hasselblad software. That will continue with Phocus. Perhaps due to the advanced communication between the integrated components, Hasselblad has extended features for current (and even legacy) users via free software updates that their competitors charged thousands of dollars for.

*Using a Hasselblad complete system instead of 3rd party/H2 provides the following advantages:

**automatic correction for: chromatic aberrations, distortion, vignetting
**ultra-focus II technology for the most accurate auto focus with an H camera
**custom options like thumbwheel control of digital back menus, and instant access to ISO/WB from the camera LED menu

One thing for sure - absolutely have a demo of Phocus before making a decision. Don't make a decision based on Flexcolor - if that is a negative for you. Why? Because within perhaps a couple weeks, your Hasselblad product will be changed drastically. So, your decision should be based on what you will be using for the next however-many years, not what you would have used last year.


Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[wcl4]

Basically all I need at this point in the software is the ability to output everything as jpgs for browsing and some sort of format that is openable from CR whether it's DNG TIF etc. Processed jpgs with color curves is not necessary.

What I do want from the back/system is durability/longevity as I don't think I'll need more than 22mp, in which case I could just rent a different back, and forward compatibility.

[pprdigital]

Basically all I need at this point in the software is the ability to output everything as jpgs for browsing and some sort of format that is openable from CR whether it's DNG TIF etc. Processed jpgs with color curves is not necessary.

What I do want from the back/system is durability/longevity as I don't think I'll need more than 22mp, in which case I could just rent a different back, and forward compatibility.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174329\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Both Flexcolor and Phocus will provide outputted JPG's and DNG-converted files for Camera Raw.

One difference between the two programs is that Phocus will output multi-format simultaneously. That being said, 103 raw files converted to JPG (maximum quality setting) in 16 seconds on my MacBook Pro laptop with Flexcolor 8.4.4.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[jecxz]

Steve,

Don't mean to hijack this thread, can you please explain ultra-focus II technology -- "for the most accurate auto focus with an H camera" because the documentation is silent on how this is used, plus my posts on other forums have gone unanswered.

How do you operate this or is it internal, something that's just "there?" Much thanks!

[pprdigital]

Steve,

Don't mean to hijack this thread, can you please explain ultra-focus II technology -- "for the most accurate auto focus with an H camera" because the documentation is silent on how this is used, plus my posts on other forums have gone unanswered.

How do you operate this or is it internal, something that's just "there?" Much thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll take a stab at it - It is an automatic adjustment that is made to the light as it comes into proximity of the sensor area, (comprised of IR Filter, glass separator and sensor). This adjustment compensates for the alteration of focus that occurs as the light passes through the IR Filter and glass separator surfaces on the way to the sensor (imaging plane) at various apertures. Changes in aperture affect the angle of the light as it enters these pre-imaging plane layers.

While I've never had anyone complain about focus with a Leaf or Sinar back on an H1 or H2, and generally, the auto focus is very accurate with Phase/Leaf/Sinar backs on H1/H2 bodies, the explanation would logically seem to ensure just a bit more accuracy due to that compensating factor.

How much of a tangible benefit it provides is hard to say, but they can do it, so why shouldn't they?

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[lance_schad]

Basically all I need at this point in the software is the ability to output everything as jpgs for browsing and some sort of format that is openable from CR whether it's DNG TIF etc. Processed jpgs with color curves is not necessary.

What I do want from the back/system is durability/longevity as I don't think I'll need more than 22mp, in which case I could just rent a different back, and forward compatibility.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well the Phase One workflow would work out very well for you since you can generate JPEGS quickly in Capture One and also the native PhaseOne RAW files can be opened and processed in the Adobe worklflow. In fact you could just take all your Phase One RAW files and not even do anything in CaptureOne except the capture, and use Adobe to open the RAWS and create JPEGS and so on.

Phase One does not require you to go from their native RAW format to an intermediary format like DNG to be supported in other workflows.

If you really wanted to go to DNG you could in Capture One 4.0, but there is not need to if you can live with the above.

The P series of backs work great on the H series cameras. In fact historically most of them were mated to that platform . Things have been shifting and we have seen a great move over to the Mamiya platform because of a variety of reasons, the biggest is that it is an open system. This means that there will be future development for new lens designs that are not tied to one manufacturer, and you can also use the lenses with film. So you can use this AFD platform with Leaf, Sinar, Hasseblad (as long as they make an adapter plate) and film! Another positive is that you can use all the legacy glass that is out there from existing Mamiya 645 AF an MF , as well as Hasseblad V-series lenses with an adapter. So it is versatile and readily available on the open market.
Phase One also is rolling out next month the next generation AFD body that has numerous enhancements, including the ability when using the new Mamiya Digital lenses to have the similar lens to back communication that Hasselblad  has currently, but you can use the camera and lenses with other systems as well if for some reason down the road you would like to. So there is preservation of your investment, you have options, it is open.
One more thing if you choose to go with the Phase One system and purchase the Mamiya mount today (if you choose to switch off the H platform) you get a FREE AFD II and 80mm lens with the P25+,P30+ or with the P45+ you also get the 28mm lens as well.
If you want to stay H for now, just get the system in the Value Added config, which will give you a three-year overnight swapout warranty and the ability to switch platforms once during the warranty period. Also the Mamiya 645AFDII body and the new one will have a three year warranty as well (longer than the H warranty) when purchased with a PhaseOne back.
So you can shoot with your H and wait it out to see if the newer AFD may fit your needs better. No risks. But if you want the new AFD Phase One gives you the opportunity to order it now with your new camera system for $2500 and it comes with a new Phase Design 80mm lens. Retail pricing in the platform has not been set, but it probably will be more than $2500.

Hope this helps you.
If I can be of any further assistance please shoot me an email or call me.

Best Regards,

Lance

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Phase One Dealer of the Year
305-534-5701 office
305-394-3196 cell
877-217-9870
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer[/url]
lance@captureintegration.com

[pprdigital]

Phase One does not require you to go from their native RAW format to an intermediary format like DNG to be supported in other workflows.

If you really wanted to go to DNG you could in Capture One 4.0, but there is not need to if you can live with the above.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course, for the ulimate in software versatility, the Leaf Aptus deserves consideration. Talk about choices - Leaf files natively open in the following apps:

*Adobe Lightroom
*Adobe Camera Raw
*Apple Aperture
*Silky Pix
*Raw Developer
*Bibble
 
And perhaps some others I've missed.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[j.miller]

A fairly recent development appears to be Hasselblad RAW file support with the newly released Apple Aperture v2.0. This little detail appears to have snuck in, under the attention of even myself up until this morning. Apparently this is a feature only available in Apple Aperture v2.0, running on OSX 10.5.2 (newly release as well). I have yet to test Aperture 2.0, so I cannot speak for exactly "how compatible" Hasselblad RAW files actually are...

If these files are in-fact natively supported, that certainly provides an attractive workflow / processing option in addition to FlexColor or Phocus®.

Here is a link to the technical specifications of Apple Aperture 2.0:

Apple Aperture 2.0 link

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Of course, for the ulimate in software versatility, the Leaf Aptus deserves consideration. Talk about choices - Leaf files natively open in the following apps:

*Adobe Lightroom
*Adobe Camera Raw
*Apple Aperture
*Silky Pix
*Raw Developer
*Bibble
 
And perhaps some others I've missed.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[TechTalk]

Steve,

Don't mean to hijack this thread, can you please explain ultra-focus II technology -- "for the most accurate auto focus with an H camera" because the documentation is silent on how this is used, plus my posts on other forums have gone unanswered.

How do you operate this or is it internal, something that's just "there?" Much thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are a variety of factors which limit the accuracy of focus. Among them:
- Lens Focus Shift. This is caused by spherical aberration and results in the image plane shifting with changes in aperture.
- Tolerance +/- in sensor image plane
- Tolerance +/- in camera optical system (lens flange/mirror/focus screen)

Ultrafocus addresses all of the above by:
Matching of dedicated body (or bodies) to back. The sensor plane and camera optical system are measured and adjusted to achieve the tightest possible tolerance. The auto-focus system is then calibrated to the individual system.

In addition, the degree of focus shift for each lens at every aperture has been measured and software in the camera adjusts the auto-focus system to compensate.

The auto-focus system provides manual-focus confirmation in the viewfinder using Ultrafocus corrections.

[yaya]

Convince me to get a Leaf if you dare! Thanks in advance.

I do not know what kind of subjects you shoot, but if speed is important to you, then you should definitely consider the Aptus 22 or Aptus 54S:

* If you shoot people or action, both are much faster than the other 22MP backs, whether you shoot into a CF card or tethered into a computer.

* 1.2 sec/ frame on the A22 and 0.8 sec/frame on the A54S - tested on an H1.

* Specifically when tethered, the previews (as is VERY GOOD previews) come up quicker than in other solutions and there is practically no buffer, so you can shoot until you fill up the hard-drive.

* If you shoot still life, then the speed translates to a better Live View which makes composition and focusing much easier.

* The software produces 1900pix/ 72dpi/ sRGB adjusted jpegs in a matter of 2-3 seconds per file.

Regarding the fan: we've been using fans in our backs since 1996 and at least for the Aptus since it was launched in 2004 I can say that we never had anyone suffering from fan issues.

But as others said before: oyu will have to test the backs for yourself to appreciate the pros and cons of each system

I hope this helps

Yair

[wcl4]

Mostly shooting people on seamless at this point. Speed is not a huge concern, but noted since it is annoying to have to wait if you've shot to the buffer. Thanks for all the replies. I have an appointment scheduled with DigitalTransitions tomorrow.

[lance_schad]

A fairly recent development appears to be Hasselblad RAW file support with the newly released Apple Aperture v2.0. This little detail appears to have snuck in, under the attention of even myself up until this morning. Apparently this is a feature only available in Apple Aperture v2.0, running on OSX 10.5.2 (newly release as well). I have yet to test Aperture 2.0, so I cannot speak for exactly "how compatible" Hasselblad RAW files actually are...

If these files are in-fact natively supported, that certainly provides an attractive workflow / processing option in addition to FlexColor or Phocus®.

Here is a link to the technical specifications of Apple Aperture 2.0:

Apple Aperture 2.0 link

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I read through the Aperture release notes and yes it does support the Hasselblad CF22 and CF39, but why were their other models left off? Just curious.

lance

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
lance@captureintegration.com

[pprdigital]

I read through the Aperture release notes and yes it does support the Hasselblad CF22 and CF39, but why were their other models left off? Just curious.

lance

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If it does indeed support those models, then it will support raw files from any Hasselblad, and it's likely a matter of someone not getting the complete model listings to them.

I am still surprised to see them on the list, but if it's legitimate, it's a good thing.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[lance_schad]

If it does indeed support those models, then it will support raw files from any Hasselblad, and it's likely a matter of someone not getting the complete model listings to them.

I am still surprised to see them on the list, but if it's legitimate, it's a good thing.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the clarification Steve. Your up late too!
Anyway I took a look at Aperture 2.0 today and they cleaned some things up. It is a nice application and I hope one day other Medium Format Backs are supported. It never hurts to have choices as to what features in a program you wish to use.

Lance

[hubell]

If it does indeed support those models, then it will support raw files from any Hasselblad, and it's likely a matter of someone not getting the complete model listings to them.

I am still surprised to see them on the list, but if it's legitimate, it's a good thing.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve:
I can confirm that it does indeed support raw files from the H3D-39. The display of gorgeous, full resolution previews and the workflow for comparing and sorting through the 3f files is quite exceptional. I have not, however, had the time to compare the quality of the conversions with Flexcolor. Ironic that, just as Phocus is set to be released in beta, Apple releases software that may render it irrelevant in many ways.