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Author Topic: Epson Exhibition Fiber's OBs  (Read 6402 times)

thompsonkirk

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Epson Exhibition Fiber's OBs
« on: February 11, 2008, 08:25:57 pm »

I've read the LL reviews of this paper & the long thread of people's comments on it, & I have what looks like an obvious question:

How do mistakes like this happen?

Nobody has commented that "I really like the OBs," or "It's so nice and bright that I really don't care about longevity"; everyone seems to think this is a glaring (pun intended) error in designing the paper.

It's called "Exhibition" fiber paper, & doesn't 'exhibition' normally mean gallery exhibition of fine-art prints?  (If not, what else?)

But if you aim at a particular use/market/audience, you presumably convene some sort of focus group of fine-art photographers & fine-art printers.  Or at least the folks who put on the show at the Epson Advanced Print Academies.  Or maybe Michael & Jeff.  Someone in the field.

But how could anyone among these folks have said "Good idea, but be sure to pile on the OBs!"?

Are optically-brightened surfaces popular in Japan, or Asia, or some continent I don't know about?

Or how do corporations 'engineer' such glaring mistakes in matching a product to a market?  

With puzzlement,

Kirk

(P.S., I'm assuming, as reviews & users have, that OBs really do fade & alter the tonal range so that it doesn't preserve what the printer intended.  I can see this in my oldest prints on gelatin silver papers that contained OBs.  Despite all the scrupulous 'archival' care, tones have shifted slightly downward.)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 08:27:37 pm by thompsonkirk »
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Peter Frahm

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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 08:50:05 pm »

Not to sure but it seems like you chucked a couple of different  spears there, maybe three...

It's a bit confusing as to which whats were thrown though...could you clarify?

: )
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Geoff Wittig

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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 08:57:26 pm »

Just my 2 cents-
There's a tension between the two poles of digital fine art printing. On one hand there's archival stability, embodied by 100% cotton rag papers with no optical brightening agents. On the other hand there is visual impact, embodied by papers displaying maximal dynamic range from deep (photo black) D-max to ultrabright (OBA's!) paper white.

Those of us aspiring to "fine art" printing want it all, of course. We want the uncompromised archival stability of the OBA-free cotton rag papers, with the maximal impact of wide dynamic range satin/luster papers. Sadly, a few compromises are necessary here in the real world. At least the paper manufacturers have provided us with a range of papers catering to most preferences. Want an OBA-free fiber paper with a deep D-max? You have your Crane silver rag. Want a super-bright white and deep D-max above all? Go with Harman FB AL gloss or Epson exhibition fiber, but you'll have to accept those OBA's in return. There's no free lunch. And as darkroom gurus point out, many of those dear departed darkroom fiber based papers had OBA's in 'em.
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Peter Frahm

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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 09:17:43 pm »

We are looking at a whole platter of products that are, in the context of inkjet printing, first generation papers.  I'm happy to be able to get a chance to print on some of this stuff before the gout sets in.

I'm sure things will proceed from here. I think it's a very exciting time in this whole mess of crap that's been going on.
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Sven W

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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 12:40:26 pm »

But shouldn't it be cleared out what sort of OBA's we're talking about.
Isn't it the baryta layer in Harman itself which gives a "whiter" paper? Not "blue agents".
And I think Innova Fiba uses titanium dioxide for brightening their papers.
Hahnemühle also claim another solution.
Not at all what Epson put in their Enhanced/Archival Matte. And that paper turns gray in a couple
of months.  

/Sven
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Dale_Cotton

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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 12:50:51 pm »

My guess is that the Epson paper people have a pretty good idea by now of how much and what formulation of OBA results in what longevity rating from Wilhelm. I would expect them to target something in the range of 90+ in Wilhelm years (indirect lighting). Comfortably higher than Crystal Archive and the Epson RC papers.
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TylerB

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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 01:06:56 pm »

Epson does not make paper, look to your Innova info regarding this particular thread.
Tyler
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 01:15:15 pm »

Quote
My guess is that the Epson paper people have a pretty good idea by now of how much and what formulation of OBA results in what longevity rating from Wilhelm. I would expect them to target something in the range of 90+ in Wilhelm years (indirect lighting). Comfortably higher than Crystal Archive and the Epson RC papers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does Wilhelm do any testing on long-term effect of OBA's? I was under the impression they do not.

I think _some_ OBA's in the paper itself (not the coating) are probably OK. That's the approach Hahnemuhle has taken with Photo Rag, which by their admission does have OBA's (interestingly GMB profiling software does not detect OBA's in HPR though, so there  must not be too much).

But from some of the feedback it sounds like EEF has more OBA's than most if not all of the fiber papers. I've not yet seen the paper myself but if it is brighter/cooler than the Harman paper that would definitely be too much for me, at least for monochrome images, as I felt the Harman paper was too cool.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 01:15:41 pm by JeffKohn »
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eleanorbrown

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Epson Exhibition Fiber's OBs
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 01:30:23 pm »

A while back, I asked Jim Doyle at shadesofpaper to please  suggest to the powers to be at Epson to consider a warmer version of EEF and Jim mentioned that the warmer papers are really not as popular with the printing public so don't hold my breath for a warmer EEF.

also, doesn't the wildly popular Hahnemuhle Photo Rag fine art matte paper have OBA's?  Many of the best known "archival" papers are brightened if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong......Not saying this is good or bad, just a fact.....eleanor
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Dale_Cotton

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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 01:46:14 pm »

Jeff Kohn wrote:
Quote
Does Wilhelm do any testing on long-term effect of OBA's?
My understanding is they call a paper's longevity under a giving lighting/storage condition when it shows a change of 2 or 3 DeltaE in any colour. Presumably, this would include paper yellowing, since any white or pastel area would be affected by the change in substrate colouring.
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USA_Stewart

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Epson Exhibition Fiber's OBs
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 01:44:45 am »

Quote
Jeff Kohn wrote:

My understanding is they call a paper's longevity under a giving lighting/storage condition when it shows a change of 2 or 3 DeltaE in any colour. Presumably, this would include paper yellowing, since any white or pastel area would be affected by the change in substrate colouring.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The problem that I see with optical brighteners in inkjet papers is that not only do they dull down with age, but new prints lose highlight density as soon as you put them under UV glass or UV plexiglass. This is a problem for critical printing of images.
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NikoJorj

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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2008, 06:14:46 am »

To assess the amount of OBA in a few inkjet papers, there is now Laszlo Pusztai's website : afaik, "epson traditional photo" is the european name of the EEF (they translate the names and call it papier photo traditionnel in France, cause otherwise it would be wayyyy too easy to identify what they sell   ).
The peak around 450nm should relate quite closely to the amount of OBAs in the paper.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 06:14:59 am by NikoJorj »
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rdonson

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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2008, 01:53:01 pm »

Ahhhhhh.... the scary topic of OBAs comes up again.  Run, hide, find a bomb shelter - the OBAs are going to get you.    

You might want to check out what Hahnemuhle has to say about OBAs here
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Ron

Schewe

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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2008, 03:09:31 pm »

It should also be noted that OBAs have been in regular silver gelatin photographic paper since the mid-1950s. Most all of the "classic emulsions" such as bromide papers and even Agfa Brovira, Oriental Seagull & Ilford Ilfobrom all contained OBAs. In fact, for photo purists, very few recent modern papers would have NOT used brighteners.

The question then comes how are the OBAs being used and of what quality...adding OBAs to the coatings is not generally regarded as optimal because of interactions...adding OBAs to the PAPER though is widely regarded as the better solution (pretty sure the OBAs in EFP _IS_ in the paper, not the coating).

Look, if you DO want the max D-Max in a print....something that rivals or surpasses silver gelatin, you're gonna have to go the OBAs route...it's the only way to get a bright white paper. Michael seems to think the "whiteness" or the "brightness" is too much for his tastes...on the other hand, for my tastes, EFP is just about perfect. Course, I never really went to the warm papers for photographic printing back in the darkroom...I preferred neutral, bright paper. If I wanted a more warm tone, I would use chem-toning to get it.

As is stands, there are a ton of different papers out there for fine art inkjet printing...if you don't like one, find another. EFP was designed for a very specific market, those people who want a print that is as close to the attributes of silver gelatin photographic paper as possible...and since all the photo papers I've used were made AFTER the 1950s (heck, I was only born in 1954) and really, I doubt (unless you are in your 60s, 70,s & 80,s) nobody working now would have ever used any of the older photo papers that DIDN'T have OBAs...EFP does use OBAs. If you don't like OBAs, don't use this paper.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 03:13:20 pm by Schewe »
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2008, 04:10:38 pm »

Quote
Look, if you DO want the max D-Max in a print....something that rivals or surpasses silver gelatin, you're gonna have to go the OBAs route...it's the only way to get a bright white paper. Michael seems to think the "whiteness" or the "brightness" is too much for his tastes...on the other hand, for my tastes, EFP is just about perfect. Course, I never really went to the warm papers for photographic printing back in the darkroom...I preferred neutral, bright paper. If I wanted a more warm tone, I would use chem-toning to get it.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My guess is that you had Dynamic Range in mind when you wrote Dmax. An OBA rich paper may even get less Dmax than a natural white paper.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Schewe

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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2008, 04:14:16 pm »

Quote
My guess is that you had Dynamic Range in mind when you wrote Dmax.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176254\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep...

~
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2008, 05:01:47 pm »

Quote
Does Wilhelm do any testing on long-term effect of OBA's? I was under the impression they do not.

I think _some_ OBA's in the paper itself (not the coating) are probably OK. That's the approach Hahnemuhle has taken with Photo Rag, which by their admission does have OBA's (interestingly GMB profiling software does not detect OBA's in HPR though, so there  must not be too much).

But from some of the feedback it sounds like EEF has more OBA's than most if not all of the fiber papers. I've not yet seen the paper myself but if it is brighter/cooler than the Harman paper that would definitely be too much for me, at least for monochrome images, as I felt the Harman paper was too cool.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Wilhelm doesn't show the actual fade criteria in test results but OBA fading may influence the color balance so could still show in the years quoted.

The tests by Image Engineering of 50 papers and the current 3 color pigment inks available (so  150 combinations) as published in the Febr 2008 issue of ColorFoto has several criteria represented in a point system. Part of the test based on the ISO standards in development which can be checked at the Image Engineering pages.

Average Light Fading, Ozone Fading, Yellowing (in Delta , the last should cover the OBA fading as well. All together a number results for lifetime (Haltbarkeit in German).

That is next to the Weight, Sheet price, Waterproof number, Drying, Mechanical quality, Flatness, ending in a "Handhabung" category. And Neutrality, Saturation, Image Impression which should cover Image Quality.

Based on the results the papers are declared compatible or not compatible to the inkset and a quality number is added so you know the ranking of what is compatible.

Separate of the ink tests is a list of the 50 with the gloss grade measured and the whiteness in lab numbers, that will show OBA content as well.

Harman, Ilford, Fuji, Tetenal, Sihl, Epson, Canon, HP, etc but surprisingly no Hahnemuhle.

I think this is one of the best ways to show potential paper buyers what they can expect. It could be improved with some categories like Dmax (although saturation should give some indication) and more images to show the paper surface and ink impression like the RIT initiated web pages with that subject.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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neil snape

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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2008, 05:14:17 pm »

Questions of OBA can not be answered in a short post here....
I wonder though if saying Exhibition is still valid considering the amount of time exposed , the amount of years the viewers expect the see the prints, and if some aging is not normal for exposed prints.
Artist paintings certainly do change color over time and do yellow on many media bases. From a purists point of view it isn't thinkable to use OBA, but from a realistic point of view if within reason does it really hurt that much if the goal is a brighter paper for viewing within the artist lifetime?

I do know that OBAs have been used in most papers for control of the white point of the paper, just as much as the actual brightening of the paper. With a subtle amount of controlled OBA, not only is the paper consistent batch to batch, but a brightness gain can be had with a small trade off of time changing the OBAs. Testing for OBA degradation is going to be a very tough project, or so Henry told me last time I asked!
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Colorwave

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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2008, 05:17:50 pm »

Quote
The tests by Image Engineering of 50 papers and the current 3 color pigment inks available (so  150 combinations) as published in the Febr 2008 issue of ColorFoto has several criteria represented in a point system.
Ernst-
This sounds quite useful.  Is any of this online yet?
Thanks,
Ron H.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2008, 06:02:22 pm »

Quote
Ernst-
This sounds quite useful.  Is any of this online yet?
Thanks,
Ron H.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


[a href=\"http://www.colorfoto.de/kameras/testberichte/50_papiere_auf_3_druckern.155431.htm]http://www.colorfoto.de/kameras/testberich...kern.155431.htm[/url]

in German though and 3 Euro to pay.

http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/...apiere-Cofo.pdf

and other articles and pages on that site tell you what testing methods are used. German or English.


Ernst Dinkla

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