Rodenstock 24mm digital VS Mamiya 28mm

[jreederphoto]

I've been hunting for a real wide lens for my P25 Mamiya mount back.  I have a 35mm Rodenstock Digital lens which i am please with and the 35mm AF Mamiya lens.

I've been planning on buying a 24mm Digital Schneider lens with a Horseman SWD or Cambo Wide camera.  But i just reviewed some test shots i made a while back with a loaner Horseman SWD-II camera and schneider 24mm Digitar lens with a 22mp Hass CF back. (tripod, f/11, cable release, Flexcolor software, full res, usm 100 / .5, no shift, etc)

Download here:
http://www.jordanreeder.com/testing/rod_24mm_22mp.jpg

I didn't bother with lens cast corrections or a center filter. The image is tack sharp in the center, but the edges (especially left side) looks very soft.    

Is this typical of this Schneider 24?  Maybe the SWD-II was tweaked and was swung a bit?  

Maybe the 24mm was desinged for smaller chip backs (24x36) which is where the sweet spot is?

If this is as good as the 24mm's get, maybe i'll just go with the 28mm Mamiya lens.  I prefer the look you get with a large format lens type though.

thanks

Jordan

[j.miller]

Jordan,
     I would suspect that there are some issues with either the lens or camera. The Schneider APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL does exhibit some minor softness and fall-off around the peripheral areas of the image, but certainly not to the degree visible in your sample shot. The fall-off should be symmetrical as well. The left-hand side of the frame shows a noticeable loss of sharpness, even in comparison the right-hand side of the frame. I do notice that the image is focused just at or behind the Little Tikes basketball hoop.

Also, to be clear, the widest digital lens from Rodenstock is the fairly new APO-Sironar Digital HR 28mm f/4.5. Schneider does however offer the APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL, as well as an APO-Digitar 28mm f/2.8.

Considering this was being used with a Horseman, I would assume you were in fact using the Schneider APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL, not a Rodenstock lens. Is it possible to clarify?

All of the lenses discussed are suitable for 22MP through 39MP resolutions. The sensor sizes are identical for all of the 22MP, 33MP, and 39MP backs on the market today. Even the 28MP, and 31MP backs are usable, as those sensors are yet even smaller. With the discussion of micro-lens performance and color casts aside, of course!

I would conclude that what you are seeing in this sample shot is certainly not an example of how the Schneider APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL (or Rodenstock Digital HR 28mm for that matter) should perform on a technical camera such as the Horseman SWD-II. My extensive experience with these lenses comes from considerable time with ALPA 12-Series cameras, Cambo Wide DS's, as well as numerous 6x9cm view cameras from ARCA-SWISS, Plaubel, Linhof, etc. I have only used the Horseman SWD-II a select few times, so I cannot speak to how common a defect in the camera might be.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

I've been hunting for a real wide lens for my P25 Mamiya mount back.  I have a 35mm Rodenstock Digital lens which i am please with and the 35mm AF Mamiya lens.

I've been planning on buying a 24mm Digital Rodenstock or Schneider lens with a Horseman SWD or Cambo Wide camera.  But i just reviewed some test shots i made a while back with a loaner Horseman SWD-II camera and Rodenstock 24mm Digital lens with a 22mp Hass CF back. (tripod, f/11, cable release, Flexcolor software, full res, usm 100 / .5, no shift, etc)

Download here:
http://www.jordanreeder.com/testing/rod_24mm_22mp.jpg

I didn't bother with lens cast corrections or a center filter. The image is tack sharp in the center, but the edges (especially left side) looks very soft.   

Is this typical of this Rodenstock 24?  Is the Schneider better?  Maybe the SWD-II was tweaked and was swung a bit? 

Maybe the 24mm was desinged for smaller chip backs (24x36) which is where the sweet spot is?

If this is as good as the 24mm's get, maybe i'll just go with the 28mm Mamiya lens.  I prefer the look you get with a large format lens type though.

thanks

Jordan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[MichaelEzra]

Why won't you photograph a brick wall, so lens performance could really be seen?

[rljones]

i have the Schneider 24XL and use it on an Alpa. i have used both Leaf 65 and now e75 with this lens. the 24XL is sharp across the entire field at f8 to f11.

Since Rodenstock does not make a digital lens wider than 28, did you test a 24mm Rodenstock made for film? i don't know if they made one, but if this is what you tested, it could explain why it did not seem sharp to you.

the other issue concerns the digital back. I think the Dalsa chips (like Leaf/eMotion) work better with non-retro focus lenses than do other backs. this problem is most noticeable as one approaches the edges.

[alainbriot]

Assuming you used a view camera (?), with a lens this wide perfect parallelism between the front and rear standard are crucial to getting sharpness from left to right and top to bottom.

If not the image will be sharp on one side, or at the top or bottom, and not on the other, or not at the top/bottom.  

It may be simply a matter of checking that the front and back are set at 0 (detents).  Or it may be that they need to be aligned.

Either way, this will cause lack of sharpness on one side of the image.  I've had this issue with super wide angles on a view camera.

[jreederphoto]

Jordan,
     I would suspect that there are some issues with either the lens or camera. The Schneider APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL does exhibit some minor softness and fall-off around the peripheral areas of the image, but certainly not to the degree visible in your sample shot. The fall-off should be symmetrical as well. The left-hand side of the frame shows a noticeable loss of sharpness, even in comparison the right-hand side of the frame. I do notice that the image is focused just at or behind the Little Tikes basketball hoop.

Also, to be clear, the widest digital lens from Rodenstock is the fairly new APO-Sironar Digital HR 28mm f/4.5. Schneider does however offer the APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL, as well as an APO-Digitar 28mm f/2.8.

Considering this was being used with a Horseman, I would assume you were in fact using the Schneider APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL, not a Rodenstock lens. Is it possible to clarify?

All of the lenses discussed are suitable for 22MP through 39MP resolutions. The sensor sizes are identical for all of the 22MP, 33MP, and 39MP backs on the market today. Even the 28MP, and 31MP backs are usable, as those sensors are yet even smaller. With the discussion of micro-lens performance and color casts aside, of course!

I would conclude that what you are seeing in this sample shot is certainly not an example of how the Schneider APO-Digitar 24mm f/5.6 XL (or Rodenstock Digital HR 28mm for that matter) should perform on a technical camera such as the Horseman SWD-II. My extensive experience with these lenses comes from considerable time with ALPA 12-Series cameras, Cambo Wide DS's, as well as numerous 6x9cm view cameras from ARCA-SWISS, Plaubel, Linhof, etc. I have only used the Horseman SWD-II a select few times, so I cannot speak to how common a defect in the camera might be.

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the response. The lens was in fact a Schneider Apo-Digitar XL 24mm, for some reason i was thinking it was a Rodenstock...oops.  Anyway good to hear this is not the typical experience from most users.  The loaner must have been out of alignment.  Creating a front swing perhaps (even though the camera doesn't allow this).  Maybe the back was not mounting up correctly.

thanks

[jreederphoto]

Why won't you photograph a brick wall, so lens performance could really be seen?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I no longer have the camera, we were in a hurry and got distracted trying to get the Flexcolor software Lens Cast to correct.  That was another problem entirely.  I normally don't test in such a sloppy manner.  I'm going to have to get my hands on another one before i buy something.  

thanks

[jreederphoto]

i have the Schneider 24XL and use it on an Alpa. i have used both Leaf 65 and now e75 with this lens. the 24XL is sharp across the entire field at f8 to f11.

Since Rodenstock does not make a digital lens wider than 28, did you test a 24mm Rodenstock made for film? i don't know if they made one, but if this is what you tested, it could explain why it did not seem sharp to you.

the other issue concerns the digital back. I think the Dalsa chips (like Leaf/eMotion) work better with non-retro focus lenses than do other backs. this problem is most noticeable as one approaches the edges.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The lens was the Schneider Apo-Digitar XL24mm.  

thanks

[jreederphoto]

Assuming you used a view camera (?), with a lens this wide perfect parallelism between the front and rear standard are crucial to getting sharpness from left to right and top to bottom.

If not the image will be sharp on one side, or at the top or bottom, and not on the other, or not at the top/bottom. 

It may be simply a matter of checking that the front and back are set at 0 (detents).  Or it may be that they need to be aligned.

Either way, this will cause lack of sharpness on one side of the image.  I've had this issue with super wide angles on a view camera.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I used a Horseman SWD-II camera [a href=\"http://www.horsemanusa.com/digital/SWD2pro.html]http://www.horsemanusa.com/digital/SWD2pro.html[/url]

and Schneider 24mm Digitar lens with a 22mp Hass CF back. (tripod, f/11, cable release, Flexcolor software, full res, usm 100 / .5, no shift, etc)

there are no swing or tilt movement on this horseman, only shifts.  So no where to zero out the camera.  It is supposed to be factory aligned, better be for a $7k camera and 1 lens setup.  this is now clearly not the case, the one i had tested must be out of alignment.

My first instinct told me the back or camera was not functioning properly.  But wanted to hear from others what their experience with 24mm digitar's were.  

thanks

[Jeffreytotaro]

I'll add to everyone's enthusiasm for this lens.  It's the sharpest lens Schneider makes in my opinion in the wide range.  Even if it did go somewhat soft in the corners, think of the film days.  My 90mmXL on 4x5 got soft in the corners on large shifts.  We simply couldn't look as closely as we can now.  In regard to Mamiya 28, which I have not tested, I can tell you that an SLR lens design will not compete with the 24XL in terms of barrel distortion.  Look at your shot.  There very little if any distortion there.

JT

[jreederphoto]

I'll add to everyone's enthusiasm for this lens.  It's the sharpest lens Schneider makes in my opinion in the wide range.  Even if it did go somewhat soft in the corners, think of the film days.  My 90mmXL on 4x5 got soft in the corners on large shifts.  We simply couldn't look as closely as we can now.  In regard to Mamiya 28, which I have not tested, I can tell you that an SLR lens design will not compete with the 24XL in terms of barrel distortion.  Look at your shot.  There very little if any distortion there.

JT
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I stopped by Calumet a couple of days ago and tested the Cambo Wide DS with the 24mm XL lens and an Hassy 39mp back.  Something must have been wrong with the horseman i tested because the test shots looked great even with the 39mp back.  You can download the full res jpeg here:

[a href=\"http://www.jordanreeder.com/testing/cambo24mm.jpg]http://www.jordanreeder.com/testing/cambo24mm.jpg[/url]

thanks for all of your replies.

Jordan

[Ray]

I stopped by Calumet a couple of days ago and tested the Cambo Wide DS with the 24mm XL lens and an Hassy 39mp back.  Something must have been wrong with the horseman i tested because the test shots looked great even with the 39mp back.  You can download the full res jpeg here:

http://www.jordanreeder.com/testing/cambo24mm.jpg

thanks for all of your replies.

Jordan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 

I see a slight softness in the extreme corners in that image, specifically the lower left corner. Now this would not be an issue for me if the lens is used without shift movement. (This is a shift lens, isn't it?)

What might be disturbing is how that softness increases with use of shift movements. This is definitely a problem with my Canon 24mm T&S lens. As a 24mm prime on a 5D it's not too bad. But any more than a modest amount of shift results in unacceptable softness and vignetting.

[jreederphoto]

I see a slight softness in the extreme corners in that image, specifically the lower left corner. Now this would not be an issue for me if the lens is used without shift movement. (This is a shift lens, isn't it?)

What might be disturbing is how that softness increases with use of shift movements. This is definitely a problem with my Canon 24mm T&S lens. As a 24mm prime on a 5D it's not too bad. But any more than a modest amount of shift results in unacceptable softness and vignetting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The 24XL does not support movements of any kind with a 36x48 chip.  It is extremely wide (equiv to a 17mm lens on a 35mm camera).

[pixjohn]

Tell that to my camera and 24xl lens when i get 2mm shifts or rise with my
aptus 75

The 24XL does not support movements of any kind with a 36x48 chip.  It is extremely wide (equiv to a 17mm lens on a 35mm camera).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174846\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[rljones]

"Tell that to my camera and 24xl lens when i get 2mm shifts or rise with my
aptus 75 "

***

why the snotty comments?

how come people cannot simply say, "i find this or that to be true" instead of what comes across as some arrogant put-down of the previous post?

of course, perhaps, i am wrong and it is not a snotty comment, but simply a demonstration of poor communicative skills.

[pixjohn]

Did you catch the  it was in a joking manner.

[shutay]

Did you catch the  it was in a joking manner.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174988\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I thought it was a hilarious comment, really tongue-in-cheek!

[HarperPhotos]

Hi Jordan,

You still have the choice of going with the Mamiya 28mm lens.

I did unfortunately get a faulty unit but Mamiya was very quick to replace it and now I am very happy with my new lens.

Also as you would know the Mamiya system is a lot faster to shoot with if speed is need in your photography.

And there is the new Mamiya/Phase body coming out soon

Cheers

Simon

[PdF]

It seems that the Mamiya 28mm lens gives important chromatic aberrations, especially in the extreme zones of the image: metallic foots of the chair (left side), limits of the video-screen (right) and TL lighting top left... the magenta and green lines are strongly present !

PdF

[HarperPhotos]

It seems that the Mamiya 28mm lens gives important chromatic aberrations, especially in the extreme zones of the image: metallic foots of the chair (left side), limits of the video-screen (right) and TL lighting top left... the magenta and green lines are strongly present !

PdF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175068\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gosh Pdf,

The way you describe the Mamiya 28mm lens it sounds like a piece of crap.

Is there any thing about this lens you like?

All I can say with the limited time I have had with this lens I have had been very pleased and my clients with the results

Cheers

Simon