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Author Topic: Another Leaf to Add to the Tea  (Read 14984 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Another Leaf to Add to the Tea
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2008, 10:14:26 pm »

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Not at all! They replaced the entire mirror housing, including prism and lens mount, and returned the defective part to me all nicely wrapped in a special Canon bag.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you saying that Canon had so many problems with mirrors falling off the 5D that they designed a special doggy bag for that part?

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2008, 11:04:58 pm »

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Are you saying that Canon had so many problems with mirrors falling off the 5D that they designed a special doggy bag for that part?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173184\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, Bernard. The same style of doggy bag was used for the repaired 5D body which was also wrapped first in insulating material. It's just an example of Canon's attention to detail. The total repair cost was a mere US$240. Can't complain about that. I was thinking of mounting the defective mirror housing on a small pedestal as a work of modern sculpture   .
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2008, 11:57:56 pm »

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Mark,
Aren't we progressing to a situation where all products are so modular that servicing is easy? Replace the module where the fault lies or replace the entire unit. Done! In fact, is there any reason why future cameras cannot have self -diagnostic circuitry to facilitate this process. Perhaps some products already have this.

I was very impressed with the Canon Service Centre in Bangkok. The mirror in my 5D came off its mount. If I'd had a tube of superglue with me at the time (I was taking lots of bracketed shots at Ancient City), I might have been tempted to glue it back on. In fact, I figured that's what the Canon service guys would probably do.

Not at all! They replaced the entire mirror housing, including prism and lens mount, and returned the defective part to me all nicely wrapped in a special Canon bag.

Whilst collecting my repaired 5D, I got talking to a European whom I'd noticed patiently waiting for something. It turned out he was waiting for his Canon P&S camera to be repaired on the spot. He'd just arrived from Norway where the Canon service people wanted to charge 9,000 Baht to repair his camera, which he thought was too much and in any case they were not able to do the repair before his departure. Here in Bangkok, they were repairing it for 2,500 Baht and doing it while he waited.

This Canon service centre in Bangkok seems better organised than any bank. Depending on whether you're bringing in a camera for repair or collecting a camera that's been repaired, you take the appropriate numbered ticket and wait your turn. There are so many assistants behind a long counter, you don't have to wait long.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Ray,

Modular or not, easy or difficult, in the final analysis what customers get is what the companies make available to them.

Canon's service center in Bangkok is exceptional. I've been there and I was also impressed. But I've had a total of four other interactions with Canon service centers - three here in Toronto and one in Barcelona, Each one of them was a turn-off. Most of the matters at hand were so simple that any properly resourced and organized service organization could have easily kept me happy.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ray

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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2008, 12:17:40 am »

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Hi Ray,
Modular or not, easy or difficult, in the final analysis what customers get is what the companies make available to them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark,
That's very true but this is not so much a technological problem as one of organising human resources. However, if labour costs in the West are too expensive for companies to offer satisfactory service, then perhaps technology can help by providing robotised assistants in the Service Centres   .
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2008, 12:27:16 am »

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Mark,
That's very true but this is not so much a technological problem as one of organising human resources. However, if labour costs in the West are too expensive for companies to offer satisfactory service, then perhaps technology can help by providing robotised assistants in the Service Centres   .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think in some cases we're already there, but it's the worst of both worlds because those who are robotized are still pulling Western salaries!  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2008, 01:11:46 am »

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However, if labour costs in the West are too expensive for companies to offer satisfactory service, then perhaps technology can help by providing robotised assistants in the Service Centres   .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The problem is IMHO more in terms of where we decide - as a society - to set the level of education of people who will get salaries belonging to the cheapest third.

We can either decide that these families get no education since they have no money, and that will of course drive a low level of service in many functions most of us have to deal with everyday. It will also favour significantly new immigrants who feel they have something to prove.

Or we can decide to educate the children of these families well, because it is a nice thing to do, but also because that will simply raise the level of the society as a whole.

Enough with my socialist views. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard

schaubild

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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2008, 03:33:59 am »

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Canon's service center in Bangkok is exceptional. I've been there and I was also impressed. But I've had a total of four other interactions with Canon service centers - three here in Toronto and one in Barcelona, Each one of them was a turn-off. Most of the matters at hand were so simple that any properly resourced and organized service organization could have easily kept me happy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good to hear that at least Bangkok seems to get some service. My experiences with Canon in Switzerland have brought me to a point where I would never recommend these cameras to any serious photographer. After spending more than 25k on Canon equipment and then having problems with it, but not being registered as professional, I learnt that there is no service available, at least nothing that even remotely resembles a service oriented behaviour. They let me down several times.
I also own Alpas, Sinars and Hasselblads, maybe Canon should have a look at the way these companies communicate and provide service for their clients, even non professionals.
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Kevin Gallagher

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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2008, 05:30:00 am »

There is a free program that works well with IE&. I use it all the time: http://www.iespell.com/

 Thanks Sid, just intalled it on my machine!!
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Willard

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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2008, 11:27:38 pm »

"Thanks Sid, just intalled it on my machine"

Oh my God! LMAO

If that is a joke it is very funny.

If it is not a joke it is even funnier.
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schrodingerscat

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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2008, 03:50:18 pm »

Some observations from a repair tech of twenty plus years...

In today's current corporate business model, service is more or less a necessary evil. Anything that subtracts from the bottom line causes acute physical pain, despite the fuzzy-feel-good marketing.

The range of experiences at different service facilities has as much to do with the managerial style at that location as it does with the policies of the parent company. I spent a year at Hasselblad's shop in California and witnessed a radical change in attitude when the fellow that hired me left and was replaced with a woman who had rather different ideas as to how to treat the employees as well as the customers. By the time I left business had dropped 25% and the exodus of the workers had begun. It limped along for a few years after and they eventually closed it. I heard that Captain Bligh  was there 'till the bitter end, despite the numerous complaints by customers and employees.

That said, I would have to say that overall Canon has probably the best service track record out there. They usually have about a two week turn-around and their prices are usually fair. They also have the most reasonable parts prices by far. They will frequently still honor a warranty service even if it's a couple weeks or so past and they have also repaired CF pin damage as a warranty repair under certain circumstances. No other manufacturer does this. Heck, Nikon USA won't even perform a non warranty repair on equipment not purchased through them and treat it like it was radioactive.

All, except for the high end, point and shoots are more or less considered disposable. This is ensured by pricing repairs and parts prices high enough to make it more attractive to just by a new one.

Digital camera construction is modular, which is one reason for high parts costs. The fellow with the 5D mirror problem had the whole mirror box assembly replaced is that is the only way it's available and manufacturer techs won't repair a sub-assembly. I have seen replacement LCD assemblies for a point and shoots that were almost the price of the camera and as much as a small LCD TV. And while they are modular, working on most of this stuff is a real PITA. Most are assembled like a Chinese puzzle box and the various connectors are very fragile.

As far as the Chinese are concerned, they don't have to invest in developing technology. Companies from around the world are clawing over each other in a rush to build plants and the old "give a man a fish..." adage is already coming back to bite them. Check out http://www.popsci.com/iclone.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2008, 08:35:11 pm »

Much of what you say above is sadly correct, but I think a two week turn-around for repairing defective new high-end equipment is poor - some people resign themselves to this because the industry has conditioned us to accept it, but this doesn't make it objectively satisfactory. And that counting starts after the pain some companies put us through before admitting they have a problem of their own making. If Canon is the standard-bearer, there's lots of progress to be made across the board!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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meyerweb

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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2008, 08:32:22 pm »

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Not sure. The complexity is such that it couldn't happen too fast, and in 5 years from now it will cost more to manufacture in China than in other South East Asian countries.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sounds to me a lot like what the Germans said about the Japanese camera industry.

Is a digital SLR that much more complex that a Blue Ray DVD player? Or a compact digicam, many of which I suspect are already made in China?

It wasn't all that long ago we could buy a good quality film SLR for a few hundred bucks, and Canon's best pro AF SLR for under $1500. A digital SLR is mechanically simpler, and the electronics will continue to get cheaper and cheaper. Right now, technological improvements are going into higher pixel counts, bigger buffers, faster processing, etc. But at some point resolution will be high enough, buffers will be big enough, etc., and improvements will start to reduce costs. As will competition.
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meyerweb

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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2008, 08:43:44 pm »

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Good to hear that at least Bangkok seems to get some service. My experiences with Canon in Switzerland have brought me to a point where I would never recommend these cameras to any serious photographer. After spending more than 25k on Canon equipment and then having problems with it, but not being registered as professional, I learnt that there is no service available, at least nothing that even remotely resembles a service oriented behaviour. They let me down several times.
I also own Alpas, Sinars and Hasselblads, maybe Canon should have a look at the way these companies communicate and provide service for their clients, even non professionals.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't soon become cheaper and more effective to FedEx a complete body to the far east for repair and send it back, than to pay the salaries of Western technicians.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2008, 08:52:15 pm »

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Sounds to me a lot like what the Germans said about the Japanese camera industry.

Is a digital SLR that much more complex that a Blue Ray DVD player? Or a compact digicam, many of which I suspect are already made in China?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, what % of those was designed by Chinese OEM?

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It wasn't all that long ago we could buy a good quality film SLR for a few hundred bucks, and Canon's best pro AF SLR for under $1500. A digital SLR is mechanically simpler, and the electronics will continue to get cheaper and cheaper. Right now, technological improvements are going into higher pixel counts, bigger buffers, faster processing, etc. But at some point resolution will be high enough, buffers will be big enough, etc., and improvements will start to reduce costs. As will competition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What is going to prevail then is the value of the system, starting with the lenses.

Can Chinese based OEM do better in terms of design and manufacturing than Japanese OEMs (some of them already producing cheap in Thailand, China,...)? I don't see why they would be able to or even why they would be willing to invest the Billon $ it takes to get there.

What those guys are going to focus on are phone with built-in cameras that will IMHO represent 80% of all new "cameras" sold in 5-10 years from now. Same thing for watches,... that's where the money can be made for non expert stakeholders.

DSLRs are a very small niche compared to the global scale of electronics market, and a niche with already tremendous competition from players who have already done their transformation to efficient and lean manufacturing.

But we'll see, only time will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2008, 11:23:16 pm »

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Can Chinese based OEM do better in terms of design and manufacturing than Japanese OEMs (some of them already producing cheap in Thailand, China,...)? I don't see why they would be able to or even why they would be willing to invest the Billon $ it takes to get there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard,
In terms of market capitalisation (total value of shares on issue) the 3 largest banks in the world are all Chinese. China is an unstoppable giant. Let's hope it eventually becomes a true democracy.
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bernie west

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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2008, 12:12:54 am »

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Bernard,
In terms of market capitalisation (total value of shares on issue) the 3 largest banks in the world are all Chinese. China is an unstoppable giant. Let's hope it eventually becomes a true democracy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A couple more facts on China:

BHP (worlds biggest miner) has put in a takeover bid for RIO Tinto (worlds third biggest miner).  As China is heavily dependant on the minerals these two companies produce, they don't wish to see the merger go ahead.  The Chinese government has made available a warchest of US$120 BILLION to block the bid.

China only spends roughly 10% of what the US does annually on military spending.

Bottom line?  This country has a lot of money to play with.
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