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Author Topic: Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.  (Read 13358 times)

GregW

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« on: February 01, 2008, 08:09:29 am »

The game is on.  

Following Sony's previous 24.6MP sensor announcement*, they have now followed up and announced that a flagship model using the new sensor will ship this year.

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Rob Galbraith DPI.  Sony full-frame sensor to appear in a Sony digital SLR later this year http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_p...cid=7-9206-9262 Retreived on 01-02-2008[/span]

* http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=22803
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Christopher

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 10:20:17 am »

Quote
The game is on. 

Following Sony's previous 24.6MP sensor announcement*, they have now followed up and announced that a flagship model using the new sensor will ship this year.

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Rob Galbraith DPI.  Sony full-frame sensor to appear in a Sony digital SLR later this year http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_p...cid=7-9206-9262 Retreived on 01-02-2008[/span]

* http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=22803
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I hope sooner than later but I don't think it will ship before fall the same for the Nikon D3x
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Christopher Hauser
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joedecker

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 02:28:01 pm »

Quote
I hope sooner than later but I don't think it will ship before fall the same for the Nikon D3x
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That might still be sooner than the 1Ds3 I'm waiting for.  
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Ken R

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 04:19:33 pm »

Nice, FINALLY, this is the first real challenge to Canons Flagship model, EVER. Since 2002 Canon has had a stronghold of the top en DSLR with the 1Ds, the 1Ds mk2 and now the 1Ds mk3, hence, even after nearly six years, the price is still $8k. Even though the chip is still the same size.

So hopefully Canon will lower the price of the 1Ds mk3. BUT it wont happen right away im sure. canon will wait till the 24mp sony dslr actually ships and is thoroughly tested and proven not faulty. (remember the Kodak DSC 14n and subsequent SLR/c and SLR/n, they were total disasters and hence didnt put a dent in the 1Ds price) Naturally Sony doest have such a spotty track record but the pricing of the Sony is key. If its low enough, man it will surely revolutionize the market and right now it seems like the only camera in the horizon that might cause a platform jump, just like the 1D mk2 did 4 years ago.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 12:29:02 am by sneakyracer »
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Quentin

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 04:29:06 pm »

Quote
remember the Kodak DSC 14n and subsequent SLR/c and SLR/n, they were total disasters and hence didnt put a dent in the 1Ds price
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I used the Kodaks for 5 years,  If you knew their quirks, they were (and still are) capable of superb results, but they were marketing disasters because Kodak overstated their versatility and they were built on amateur Nikon N80 bodies, so slow focus etc.  

And from what I hear, The D3 is already blowing holes in Canon's side. Its the D3 (and of course the D3x when released, based on this new chip) that will worry Canon, not the Sony, which will need some time to establish any kind of market presence, but will have an impact on Canon / Nikon pricing, as you rightly suggest.

Quentin
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GregW

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 05:49:31 pm »

To focus on price misses the point in my opinion.  As serious photographers - a label which I think can be applied to a large section of the LL readership - the cost of a body is relatively minor.  

Add up the cost of lenses, tripods, ball heads, CF cards, field backup, spare batteries, a decent spec desktop computer, laptop, extra RAM and hard disks, big display, calibration devices, large format printer, Lightroom/Aperture, Photoshop, ink and paper.  Add the cost of photography related travel, books, workshops etc and it's very easy to see how the cost of a body is relatively minor in comparison to how much we invest in our photography.

The point is that we have now have at least 3 SLR manufacturers who are committed to ever more worthwhile and useable product enhancements.  Nikon have also announced new high end lenses to accompany their latest camera offerings.

Quote
Nice, FINALLY, this is the first real challenge to Canons Flagship model, EVER. Since 2002 Canon has had a stronghold of the top en DSLR with the 1Ds, the 1Ds mk2 and now the 1Ds mk3, hence, even after nearly six years, the price is still $8k. Even though the chip is still the same size.

So hopefully Canon will lower the price of the 1Ds mk3. BUT it wont happen right away im sure. canon will wait till the 24mp sony dslr actually ships and is thoroughly tested and proven not faulty. (remember the Kodak DSC 14n and subsequent SLR/c and SLR/n, they were total disasters and hence didnt put a dent in the 1Ds price) Naturally Sony doest have such a spotty track record but the pricing of the Sony is key. If its low enough, man it will surely revolutionize the market and roght now it seems like the only camera in the horizon that might cause a platform jump, just like the 1D mk2 did 4 years ago.
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nemophoto

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 05:58:55 pm »

To me, the key is build quality, features, as well as ultimate resolution. Having just bought a 1Ds3, I'm thinking sh*t, now prices may finally come down - after I have mine in my hot hands. But, as an earlier poster made note of, the Kodak DSLR did little to stop the Canon locomotive. In the end, as I mentioned, it come down to build and features. Unless Sony makes huge strides in design, their cameras are nice, but not in the same league as Canon. Until a body actually appears, it's all vaporware.

Nikon may or may not make use of the Sony chip. They went their own way with the chip for the D3.
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douglasf13

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 05:59:49 pm »

Quote
Nice, FINALLY, this is the first real challenge to Canons Flagship model, EVER. Since 2002 Canon has had a stronghold of the top en DSLR with the 1Ds, the 1Ds mk2 and now the 1Ds mk3, hence, even after nearly six years, the price is still $8k. Even though the chip is still the same size.

So hopefully Canon will lower the price of the 1Ds mk3. BUT it wont happen right away im sure. canon will wait till the 24mp sony dslr actually ships and is thoroughly tested and proven not faulty. (remember the Kodak DSC 14n and subsequent SLR/c and SLR/n, they were total disasters and hence didnt put a dent in the 1Ds price) Naturally Sony doest have such a spotty track record but the pricing of the Sony is key. If its low enough, man it will surely revolutionize the market and roght now it seems like the only camera in the horizon that might cause a platform jump, just like the 1D mk2 did 4 years ago.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


  This Sony FF camera is going up against the next 5D, not 1D.  It's Sony's flagship, but that doesn't mean it's pro.  Sony has implicitly said that it is NOT fully professional.  Think 40D/A700/D300 body range, but with a 24MP FF sensor.  Around ~$3500....and it has in-body IS.  I wonder how many bells and whistles that 1Ds III users will miss for a camera half the cost and with more resolution?
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MatthewCromer

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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 07:37:08 pm »

Quote
To focus on price misses the point in my opinion.  As serious photographers - a label which I think can be applied to a large section of the LL readership - the cost of a body is relatively minor. 

Add up the cost of lenses, tripods, ball heads, CF cards, field backup, spare batteries, a decent spec desktop computer, laptop, extra RAM and hard disks, big display, calibration devices, large format printer, Lightroom/Aperture, Photoshop, ink and paper.  Add the cost of photography related travel, books, workshops etc and it's very easy to see how the cost of a body is relatively minor in comparison to how much we invest in our photography.

The point is that we have now have at least 3 SLR manufacturers who are committed to ever more worthwhile and useable product enhancements.  Nikon have also announced new high end lenses to accompany their latest camera offerings.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it's great that for so many of you, $20,000 or $30,000 invested in your hobby is not a big deal.  Or for the deep pockets, $100,000 or more. . .

However there are a great many of us who cannot spend that kind of money on gear, but are still serious photographers.  For me, I am still using my Epson 2200 printer, a used bogen tripod and head picked up for $80 and shooting with the ultimate deal in image quality in its day, the Sony R1.  And I do most all of my shooting within a few hours of home.

I think it is fantastic that Sony is going to be offering better than 1DsIII resolution for the price of a 5D.  That's the difference between me being able to buy a really high resolution digital camera system for much larger and more detailed prints, or the ridiculous dream of a camera body that costs as much as some new cars (or the even more out-of-reach costs of digital MF gear).

So for those who can drop ten grand without breaking a sweat, the entry of the Alpha 900 at $2500 - $3000 is just a curiosity.  For many of us who love landscape photography but have a limited budget for non-essentials, it's a godsend.  And I'll be quite frank with you.  I know a bunch of very serious landscape photographers, and the large majority of them are using 5Ds, not 1DsIIs and IIIs.  There is a very good reason for this. . .

Matthew Cromer
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daethon

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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2008, 08:16:16 pm »

Pixel count isn't everything.  The 1Ds III has a ton of additional features that make up a lot more of its price than just its resolution.  

Like a built in wireless transmitter, ability to change the focus for individual lenses, audio attachments for images and full weather sealing.  I'm sure there are a lot of other additional features, but those are just the ones that came to mind immediately.  

All of these are things that you can "add on" to your camera, but not at a minimal cost.  If I remember correctly the wireless transmitter for the 40D is about 800 dollars.  


This reminds me a lot about some of the film cameras.  Canon has a myriad of film cameras, their resolution is all the same from one to the next, but you can spend between 150 and 1500 dollars for the different bodies.  



Yes, resolution is important, but it is hardly the only measure that one should consider.  

The 1Ds IV will probably have more resolution, because some people only bother to look at that, but hopefully someone spending 8k on a body knows what they are getting beyond a single number.  I'd expect it to also have a built in GPS for automatic Geotagging, but that's just a guess as you are starting to see it in other places.  New competition will drive down prices, but sensor size/megapixel count is just one of many factors
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douglasf13

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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2008, 08:47:10 pm »

Quote
Pixel count isn't everything.  The 1Ds III has a ton of additional features that make up a lot more of its price than just its resolution. 

Like a built in wireless transmitter, ability to change the focus for individual lenses, audio attachments for images and full weather sealing.  I'm sure there are a lot of other additional features, but those are just the ones that came to mind immediately. 

All of these are things that you can "add on" to your camera, but not at a minimal cost.  If I remember correctly the wireless transmitter for the 40D is about 800 dollars. 
This reminds me a lot about some of the film cameras.  Canon has a myriad of film cameras, their resolution is all the same from one to the next, but you can spend between 150 and 1500 dollars for the different bodies. 
Yes, resolution is important, but it is hardly the only measure that one should consider. 

The 1Ds IV will probably have more resolution, because some people only bother to look at that, but hopefully someone spending 8k on a body knows what they are getting beyond a single number.  I'd expect it to also have a built in GPS for automatic Geotagging, but that's just a guess as you are starting to see it in other places.  New competition will drive down prices, but sensor size/megapixel count is just one of many factors
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  Perfectly said      I'm surprised about how many people are automatically assuming this Sony cam will be in the realm of the 1Ds, just because of FF 24mp.  There are many more reasons to buy the 1Ds.  The Sony is aiming to reach independent pros who want the high IQ, but can't afford the awesome body a la' the Canon 5D.  I know I can't wait for the new Sony cam  
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MatthewCromer

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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2008, 09:41:14 pm »

Quote
Perfectly said      I'm surprised about how many people are automatically assuming this Sony cam will be in the realm of the 1Ds, just because of FF 24mp.  There are many more reasons to buy the 1Ds.  The Sony is aiming to reach independent pros who want the high IQ, but can't afford the awesome body a la' the Canon 5D.  I know I can't wait for the new Sony cam 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171670\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Many people don't want the big, heavy, brick body of the 1DsIII.

They would far prefer that Canon put that sensor in a 5DII body to make it more backpackable.

Unfortunately, Canon would prefer to milk the faithful for every dime they've got.  Well, that's over now. . .
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2008, 10:27:59 pm »

Quote
This Sony FF camera is going up against the next 5D, not 1D.  It's Sony's flagship, but that doesn't mean it's pro.  Sony has implicitly said that it is NOT fully professional.  Think 40D/A700/D300 body range, but with a 24MP FF sensor.  Around ~$3500....and it has in-body IS.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171646\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd personnally claim that the D300 is a fully pro body in its build and features.

Regarding the Sony, their 24 MP A900 will hurt Nikon and Canon if it does have in body IS, because that will end up being the only FF body out there with a stabilized 24-70 f2.8 lens... and that will attract many people, believe me. It will simple push the enveloppe of possible applications.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 10:38:18 pm »

Quote
Perfectly said      I'm surprised about how many people are automatically assuming this Sony cam will be in the realm of the 1Ds, just because of FF 24mp.  There are many more reasons to buy the 1Ds.  The Sony is aiming to reach independent pros who want the high IQ, but can't afford the awesome body a la' the Canon 5D.  I know I can't wait for the new Sony cam 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171670\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My view is that features are important, but the high end Nikon bodies have always offered significantly more than the high end Canons, and that didn't help them much in gaining market share in the very high end.

What really matters most is the spread of the word. Let's face it, most photographers buy what others buy.

Image quality as a result of sensor and lenses is of course one of the reasons why the word spreads, but no more than that. Combined with the closed nature of photographic systems there is still a huge inertia that delays significantly the raise of market share even after a ground breaking system is released.

Technologically, Sony has a great card to play because there is little doubt that their sensor will be in the same league as the Canon's with superior Zeiss lenses, potentially built-in IS etc... Canon might still have a slight edge in terms of build quality, but Sony-Minolta has had a good reputation here as well.

However, it would take several years of continued investement until Sony gains enough market share to benefit from the spread of the word. In the mean time, Nikon and Canon will have released even better, and my view is that Sony will in fact never go beyond 10 or 15% share at best.

Cheers,
Bernard

Kenneth Sky

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Sony 24.6MP "Flagship Model" to ship in 2008.
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 11:18:36 pm »

As a consumer, I don't care about market share. Except to give companies like Sony, Pentax & Olympus enough to survive and thrive, i.e. to compete. Just so one company never has complete dominance the way Canon had until recently. As for the A900 having in-body AS, they are already demonstrating its existence at PMA. There is a market niche for the A900 whether it is at the 5D level or the 1D. The ironic part of its existence will be that the bulk of the Sony buyers will still come from those of us who stuck with the A mount because of our investment in Minolta glass and now find we have to trade up to Carl Zeiss lenses to match the higher resolution of the sensor. Then I'll have to consider a larger printer. It never ends....
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daethon

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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2008, 12:35:50 am »

Quote
Many people don't want the big, heavy, brick body of the 1DsIII.

They would far prefer that Canon put that sensor in a 5DII body to make it more backpackable.

Unfortunately, Canon would prefer to milk the faithful for every dime they've got.  Well, that's over now. . .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Totally right.  Many people don't want the big clunker.  Just as many people didn't want a really heavy 35MM body.  Just as some people find the 40D to be too heavy and prefer the XTSeries.  Just as some people prefer Global Kitchen Knives over Henckles or Shun.  

They are in different target markets.  Different product lines for different types of people.  


The fact of the matter is that if Canon does nothing, then the A900 will compete with the 5D, and Sony will pull a lot of market share because of it from the Canon "Mid-Spending Prosumer."  The A900 will not compete with the 1Ds III.  It might, however, compete with a user whose 1Ds III is backed up by a 40D or a 5D (of course this would mean a considerable investment in additional glass).  

The A900 will be formidable, and if we can see the writing on the walls about it already, one can only hope that Canon has been seeing it for a while, which, in the long run might make the delay/wait for the 5D II worth it.
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Ken R

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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2008, 12:39:35 am »

I make a living as a photographer.  Its true, I have LOTS of money invested in (Canon) lenses and accesories ore than the bodies. While nice, the Sony, as a DSLR system, still has a long way to go to meet my needs. Simple things like a timer/remote release have been crucial for some of my jobs, so has been fast primes like the 85mm f1.2 and specialized lenses like the 24mm TSE. To me camera bodies last much less than glass and hence cant afford to spend $8k on 2 of them. Instead I much rather have cheaper bodies since new versions will be released every few years anyway.

Even though I get paid upwards of $2k for a job / day (+ all production costs) , the money flies out of ones pockets, rent, utilities, taxes etc etc it costs a lot to run a business and ones life!! (fuel costs are insane nowadays, affects everything) . $8k on a DSLR is still a big deal to me. And, at least in my market, a MFDB makes no sense business wise, unless naturally one has other money sources...

at any rate, Sony is a powerhouse as we all know. Its amazing how far they have gone in just a few years (after taking over minolta). If I were building up a system from scratch later this year I would strongly consider Sony. Also If one doesnt need specialized lenses and accesories man, there are many good choices nowadays like Pentax's new dslrs and of course, Sony's. (12-14mp dslrs for $800-$1800, that wouldve been unbeleivable just 4 years ago)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 12:43:24 am by sneakyracer »
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mcfoto

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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2008, 03:27:18 am »

Hi
A year is a long time these days with digital. I still think Canon has the best AF system of the three. They made EOS from scratch in 1987 & dropping the FD series. I have always used Canon & did look at Nikon in 1988 but in the end I stayed with Canon going with there EOS system. Looking back I am glad I did. The Sony lens mount is Minolta from there 1983 launch. Nikon stayed with the old lens mount to keep there customers. In the end Nikon lost there no1 position to Canon due to a better AF system. Canon lead the way with USM & then IS lenses. Then after that they launched the 30D they were no 1 in digital to date. Yes Nikon has made a great D3 camera but my question why a default of iso 200? I do remember the Kodax 14 mp came out at the same time as the 1Ds in 2002. Canon was $8000.00 & Kodax $4000.00. The Kodax camera had a lot of problems & in the end they stopped making it. Sony is a real player because of there size with R&D but are thay interested in the pro market. Or will they focus on the 5D market area where there a lot more cameras to be sold.

    As I use both 35 digital & MFD. I think with all these new 35 D announcements in the past 6 months what is going to happen to MFD? To me Phase should redesign the ZD with a 39mp & keep the price the same as the current ZD. Call me crazy but Phase & Mamiya would sell a few units!

Denis
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Christopher

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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2008, 05:14:28 am »

Quote
Hi
A year is a long time these days with digital. I still think Canon has the best AF system of the three. They made EOS from scratch in 1987 & dropping the FD series. I have always used Canon & did look at Nikon in 1988 but in the end I stayed with Canon going with there EOS system. Looking back I am glad I did. The Sony lens mount is Minolta from there 1983 launch. Nikon stayed with the old lens mount to keep there customers. In the end Nikon lost there no1 position to Canon due to a better AF system. Canon lead the way with USM & then IS lenses. Then after that they launched the 30D they were no 1 in digital to date. Yes Nikon has made a great D3 camera but my question why a default of iso 200? I do remember the Kodax 14 mp came out at the same time as the 1Ds in 2002. Canon was $8000.00 & Kodax $4000.00. The Kodax camera had a lot of problems & in the end they stopped making it. Sony is a real player because of there size with R&D but are thay interested in the pro market. Or will they focus on the 5D market area where there a lot more cameras to be sold.

    As I use both 35 digital & MFD. I think with all these new 35 D announcements in the past 6 months what is going to happen to MFD? To me Phase should redesign the ZD with a 39mp & keep the price the same as the current ZD. Call me crazy but Phase & Mamiya would sell a few units!

Denis
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Yes that is all very well, but there is also the aspect that Canon really got sloppy in the recent years. It is a shame that you have to get 2-5 L lenses just to get a good copy or you have to send in a brand new lens to Canon to get it adjusted. I own Canon and I like it, but they have to be carfull not to over do it. Because I alreads switched to Zeiss and leica lenses from 50mm downwords.
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2008, 06:11:23 am »

Things can change quick in digital. Nikon was behind in many aspects, came back and I think is doing with the 3D in many regards better than Canon. Competition is good for us costumers as prices might go down, or features improve.
What is worrying me as a Canon shooter are the in my opinion bad wide angle lenses of canon (like 17-40 or the 24 TSE which I and other photographers I know think is useless on a high resolution digital body) So while Canon has a lot of lenses a lot of these do  not make much sense to use beyond or even with 12 MP. The same is with other companies, the cheap lenses are often not build to the task to support high resolution sensors, nothing to complain about this, but they do not have pro lenses in a useful range or do not have them at all. Sony with corporation to Zeiss might be capable to build up a strong professional lens line up which matches the needs of an 24 MP sensor, but this is at this point pure speculation. The sucess of the Nikon D3 in my opinion is not about the high iso hype for me (as this camera might be a sensation to nikon shooters, but for a Canon shooter good high iso performance is nothing new). The interesting thing is, that Nikon in a way is introducing a totally new digital system. Yes you can use your old lenses, but the new lenses like 14-24, 24-70, and especially the new announced Tilt/Shift lenses with the magnetic aperture control (only working with D3 and D300!) show that Nikon has clearly seen the necessity of a new lens line up if you want to get the best out of high performance sensors at 12 MP and beyond. Canon is thinking they can sell us the old stuff on and on with with a very sloppy quality control (so you have to go to a shop, test three lenses of the same kind and hopefully one is good - like buying three cars and hopefully one is actually driving ?) I have tested the new 1DsMarkIII for a week and I could afford to buy it. But I wont do it, for now I will stick with my good Canon kit (5D and 40 D and some lenses which do the job, because I use a tripod and use the lenses at aperture 11 or even 13 and 16 like the 17-40 L at 17 mmm). If I decide to go into higher pixel counts I do not see for my kind of shooting a future with the Canon system, the cameras are great, but too many of the optics suck. I do not adapt nikon optics to Canon, if I think the nikon optics are better, I buy the Nikon camera too. Sadly from some talk to Canon reps I think they simply deny that some of their optics are not up to the task, and updated optics like the 16-35 are not that much better, it seems like they have their weak point here. Hopefully I will get the Nikon D3 and the 14-24 and 24-70 for testing to see for myself, if Nikon is doing better with their optics (and hopefully with their quality control) as some pro photographers are claiming. And as stated above, if Sony is building up a professional lens line up together with an 24 MP body which is not as heavy as the 1d series, many landscape shooters will be very interested in this system. As seen with the new announced 24-70 2,8 Zeiss-Sony lens it will be as expensive and as heavy as similar lenses from other companies.
The hype about image stabilization I do not understand. My tests showed that while it makes sharper pictures for times like 1/8 to 1/60 the point is they are sharper but still unsharp - no compare to a well done picture from a tripod (exception are tele lenses like 600 mm, there is works also with shorter times). So for me built in IS is an amateur feature I do not need (aerial pictures for example do not benefit from IS, a fast shutter speed is much more important - so lenses which are tack sharp wide open and good high iso perfomance do help more).
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