Miter saw for picture framing

[daniel voges]

Hi, could not find a better place on this forum to post this question. I want to buy the 12" Bosch sliding miter saw primarily to do picture framing and was wondering if it is accurate enough for the job. Secondly I also want to use it for other general tasks.
So the question really is, is the sliding miter saw just as accurate as the non sliding one?

[wolfnowl]

Bosch makes a good saw, and if it's set up accurately and has the right blade it will do a good job for you.  If you want to get REALLY picky about picture framing, you need a trimming  guillotine like this one:
http://www.clubframeco.com/picture_frame_c...ng.html#trimmer

Mike.

[Peter Frahm]

Most folks who use these saws for precision work will tell you that a chop style box is more accurate than a slider. If you get one with a laser, don't use the laser...build yourself some simple jigs for accuracy in production and calibrate your saw. Bosch makes decent saws but they will get out of alignment so you need to check that regularly.

Also and important, get yourself a very high quality Miter blade for picture framing. You will probably spend $100-125 on a decent blade in this category. Usually, the good blades, designed for cutting laminates and veneered wood, will be less prone to chipping and wandering...many companies have a blade they say is great for picture framing...you still have to use these blades carefully...you are taking a construction tool and asking it become a picture framing tool...the demands of picture framing are much more testy than those of trimwork or even cabinet making.

As Wolfnowl mentioned, the guillotine style chopping machines are what high end picture framers use. They use extremely sharp blades and deliver a very clean and accurate cut. You will be wasting some framing stock when using a chop box, it's almsot guaranteed...a few choice cuss words will find their way through your lips.

I'm not sure I understand why you are thinking about a 12 inch saw. A 10 inch saw should do the job.

[David Sutton]

A good trimming guillotine is not a luxury. If you have one, the initial cut with whatever you settle on does not need to be 100% accurate. But a clean cut will mean less to tidy up. David

[sojournerphoto]

A good trimming guillotine is not a luxury. If you have one, the initial cut with whatever you settle on does not need to be 100% accurate. But a clean cut will mean less to tidy up. David
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I completely agree - you can get a relatively inexpensive guillotine made in Taiwan I think. I have one and iot makes the job a pleasure. Also, you should invest in a reasonable underpinner.

I wouldn't make frames without these two tools.

Mike

[condit79]

I prefer a miter saw to a cutter.  Sure, you might have to take a look at it ever once in a while and make sure it´s cutting a perfect 45 degrees and get a really decent blade that you maintain always sharp, but the results are fantastic.  I like to make my own frames from wood, put them together puddy them and THEN paint them black so you see no seams.  Of course a nice spray booth-gun is necessary, but thankfully my father is a woodworker so I get all this for free

[tonypassera]

Hi, could not find a better place on this forum to post this question. I want to buy the 12" Bosch sliding miter saw primarily to do picture framing and was wondering if it is accurate enough for the job. Secondly I also want to use it for other general tasks.
So the question really is, is the sliding miter saw just as accurate as the non sliding one?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A friend of mine who is an expert carpenter advised against a 12" saw for this purpose.
He said you'll see subtle wandering due to flexing of the larger blade.  He recommended
using a 10" blade for making picture frames.
Tony

[dobson]

Have you considered a table saw?

A good table saw with an after market miter gauge and crosscut blade will be much more accurate and repeatable than a miter saw. Table saws offer more versatility than chop saws. You can mill frames from inexpensive rough lumber (I average about $7 per 11x14 frames when using exotic hardwoods), rather than buying finished pieces.

[stever]

for the same money a miter saw will be much more accurate than a table saw and easier to set up

[daniel voges]

Thank you all for the info,
I got the trimming guillotine and I had a table saw, might still look at a 10" miter in the future depending on my work load.

[martinog]

If you are going to do a final trim with a guillotine, the best method, you don't need an expensive mitre saw as this is only a rough cut.
I tried a Bosch and sent it back as it was worse than useless, very poor manufacture.
Martin

[SeanPuckett]

The Dewalt 10" saws in the 403, 412, 413 etc series are excellent framing saws.  The hinging is solid as a rock and they are dead nuts easy to align.  I spent several months choosing among them; my primary selection criteria was grabbing the handle of the saw in the shop and yanking sideways on it.  If it wobbled even slightly, it was out of the running.  From $90 cheapies to $800+ monster saws, the Dewalts in the 40x 41x series are the best for stability.  The supplied blade is also quite good; mine has no measurable runout.  Also the dust ejection port really works fairly well, especially if you hook a vac up to it.  Clamp the work, cut slowly and stop the blade before lifting the cutterhead and you are looking at a ready-to-glue joint.

Tune in next week when I describe how to build an 8' long mitering fence with 45 degree rule marks on the bed so you'll never have to lift a tape measure again.  (well, I probably won't get around to writing it up, but I did make one and it's saved me no end of time.)

I also made a 45 degree sliding miter jig for my General table saw; it produces excellent and very accurate cuts.  The only annoyance was having to measure every cut by hand.  The mitersaw + 45 degree fence bed means the slowest part of framing is now waiting for the glue to dry.

N.B. second the recommendation for cutting your own moulding.  I create canvas floater moulding, standard rear-rebate moulding and stretcher bars on my TS.  Saves a bucketload of money.

[bill t.]

I highly recommend the DeWalt saws like the most recent 10 and 12" models.  They are very well made, but most importantly you can fairly easily fine tune the 45 degree angles, and the registration at those positions is very repeatable.  If you want great looking corners without gaps, you must have a very accurate 45 degrees.  I use a $900 "Phaedra" miter table with it, although that may seem pricey it is extremely well made and makes cutting moulding about as easy as it gets.

I often cut 5" moulding so I have a 12" DeWalt.  There is an issue with those large diameter blades going into oscillation and this can lead to inaccurate cuts.  For whatever reason, Freud LU85 series blades almost completely eliminate this oscillation and I am getting great cuts with these blades.  "LU85R010" is the 10" blade, "Lu85R012" is the 12 inch.

I have one of the table-top, "Lion Miter" style guillotine miter trimmers.  If the blades were 10 times as hard, it would be great.  However, the blades on the imports (which is all you can get new at this time) are frankly pretty poor and I rarely get more than a few tens of good cuts.  As the blades dull out the joints get extremely poor.  Also, those things are wildly dangerous, maybe the scariest tool I have ever used.  I really have to recommend against them.  And they are for trimming only, you have to rough cut the 45 degree angle with a saw, then take a series of very thin shaves down to size.

The greatest miter cutter of all time is of course the wonderful Morso Chopper.  It's a foot operated device with a pair of huge, super quality blades set at perfect 45 degree angles.  You get several hundred razor smooth, perfect cuts between sharpenings.  Nothing joins better than (most) moulding cut with still-sharp blades.  There are a few problem mouldings, such as those wider than about 4", those with angles or curves on the outside edges, those with extremely complex designs on the faces, etc.  But for all the mouldings generally regarded as "photographic" it's the perfect thing.  About $3100 new with shipping, but you can often find them for less than $1000 used.  I use one to supplement my saw, it's my first choice for those mouldings sized and suitable for it.  But the saw will cut anything with a little more work.

[peteh]

I highly recommend the DeWalt saws like the most recent 10 and 12" models.  They are very well made, but most importantly you can fairly easily fine tune the 45 degree angles, and the registration at those positions is very repeatable.  If you want great looking corners without gaps, you must have a very accurate 45 degrees.  I use a $900 "Phaedra" miter table with it, although that may seem pricey it is extremely well made and makes cutting moulding about as easy as it gets.

I often cut 5" moulding so I have a 12" DeWalt.  There is an issue with those large diameter blades going into oscillation and this can lead to inaccurate cuts.  For whatever reason, Freud LU85 series blades almost completely eliminate this oscillation and I am getting great cuts with these blades.  "LU85R010" is the 10" blade, "Lu85R012" is the 12 inch.

I have one of the table-top, "Lion Miter" style guillotine miter trimmers.  If the blades were 10 times as hard, it would be great.  However, the blades on the imports (which is all you can get new at this time) are frankly pretty poor and I rarely get more than a few tens of good cuts.  As the blades dull out the joints get extremely poor.  Also, those things are wildly dangerous, maybe the scariest tool I have ever used.  I really have to recommend against them.  And they are for trimming only, you have to rough cut the 45 degree angle with a saw, then take a series of very thin shaves down to size.

The greatest miter cutter of all time is of course the wonderful Morso Chopper.  It's a foot operated device with a pair of huge, super quality blades set at perfect 45 degree angles.  You get several hundred razor smooth, perfect cuts between sharpenings.  Nothing joins better than (most) moulding cut with still-sharp blades.  There are a few problem mouldings, such as those wider than about 4", those with angles or curves on the outside edges, those with extremely complex designs on the faces, etc.  But for all the mouldings generally regarded as "photographic" it's the perfect thing.  About $3100 new with shipping, but you can often find them for less than $1000 used.  I use one to supplement my saw, it's my first choice for those mouldings sized and suitable for it.  But the saw will cut anything with a little more work.
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here's a link to the Morse Trimmer that one of the guys in the forum was talking about.They work GREAT  [a href=\"http://www.tech-mark.com/morso-f.htm]http://www.tech-mark.com/morso-f.htm[/url]
Check out the shadowbox video. A lyon trimmer works well also with rough cut after the mitersaw.

[pcox]

I'd have to second the suggestion for the trimming guillotine. For my framing I use a Morso F (www.morso-guillotines.dk).

I'm not sure how easy they are to get in the US (they're very heavy and bulky, and made in Denmark), but they are the industry standard in Europe for frame cutting. I got mine used (they last forever) for about EUR200, and it required about EUR500 worth of work to clean it up. Generally you can get a good one for about EUR1100 or so. Just measure, chop and pin the thing together, no finishing work needed (although it's a good idea to glue the joints as a guard against mishandling).

Failing that, a tabletop guillotine would be a good compromise. I've never used a saw to cut frames, but I imagine it can't possibly produce as clean of a cut as a good guillotine.

Cheers,
Peter

[bill t.]

a tabletop guillotine would be a good compromise. I've never used a saw to cut frames, but I imagine it can't possibly produce as clean of a cut as a good guillotine.
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Actually you can get a Morso-quality cut from a table top trimmer.  However, the blades on the cheap imports are so poor that after 20 or 30 cuts the trims are no longer satisfactory for good corners and you need to spend about $15 to get them sharpened.  Regardless of blade quality, the table tops cut from the side so cutting say a 2cm by 5cm moulding will concentrate the total blade wear on only 2cm of the blade, whereas with a Morso cutting from the top much less total wear is spread out over 5cm of blade.  And since the hardest part of the moulding is usually the surface, the sideways table top cuts create a tiny section of very high wear in the worst possible position especially if you cut a lot of the same height of moulding.

But the main thing is, the table top miter trimmers are incredibly dangerous! There is absolutely no finger protection, and your fingers must be within 1 or 2 cm of the blades while cutting.  And they are most dangerous when not cutting at all!  It is tempting to pick them up by the "wings" which will give a horrible cut if the blade is parked at the end of the stroke.  And it is very easy to simply rub your fingers against a non-moving blade as you wiggle the moulding into position.  Those blades are razor sharp and a simple brush against the edge can cut you.

A distracted brush against the blade cut off about 1/3 of my thumbnail, I count myself extremely lucky that only a little flesh went with it!  It was a good lesson for me.  My ranting here is highly motivated.

The Morso has excellent finger guards (don't remove them!) and invites you to put your hands in a safe position while making the cuts.  And the Morso can be used to cut the moulding into pieces, with a table top you must first rough cut with a saw to the approximate size.  Don't get me wrong, changing the blades on a Morso is a dangerous thing, but overall it's a much safer tool than a table top version.