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Author Topic: HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels  (Read 5737 times)

marty m

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« on: January 26, 2008, 04:53:25 pm »

I previously posted a solution on the software issues -- see "Catastrophic Vista software failures."  This reports on an update I received from the design team in Spain on the mechanical issues.

They are designing a solution related to the rollers and star wheels, which presumably will mean new parts that will fix these problems.  Those parts are not yet available.  The design team in Spain anticipates that these parts will be available in the "spring/summer" time frame. (Meaning that they are aiming for spring, but the release date might slip to early summer.)

This corrects previous statements from US HP tech support that such parts aren't in development -- because they are.  The team in Spain is aware that participants in this forum have received erroneous information from tech support in that regard -- because I specifically brought that to their attention.  This also lets all of you know that if call tech support today, they will not have the new parts.  So don't bother IMHO.

I candidly told the team in Spain that it is not acceptable that a $4,000 printer, that is less than one year old, has these mechanical problems.  I don't see reports on this forum of such a range of mechanical problems with the equivalent printers from Epson.  I also told them that, based on comments on this forum, it is these mechanical problems that are scaring potential buyers away from HP and the Z3100.  Specifically related to ink building up on print heads (mat black being the leading problem, it happened to me); mat black ink cartridges then failing (as previously reported in this forum, and it happened to me as well); and marks on paper from the rollers and star wheels (which I have also experienced).

But the bottom line issue is whether HP intends to fix these problems; not that these problems are occurring.  I believe the HP team  -- at least the team in Spain -- is deeply committed to fixing all of the issues we have identified, including the Vista software issues, ink build up on print heads, and marks from the rollers and star wheels.  I am happy to be patient and wait for the resolution of these issues in the next three to six months.  I give the HP team, and specifically the team in Spain, very high marks for outstanding service and a fairly rapid resolution of these problems as they are reported.

If you search under my user name, you'll find that I have been very critical of HP in the past.  So I am not a partisan or unthinking booster of HP.  My current assessment of HP is based on my own personal experience with HP support in Spain and the US.

However, there is one important caveat.  Once the team in Spain develops these fixes, will US tech support be supportive and arrange for the fix and upgrade?  Or will they jerk us around?  Only time will tell.  We are dependent upon US tech support, not that of Spain to arrange for the upgrade.  But it would be utterly illogical for the team in Spain to commit the resources to develop new parts, only for the Z3100 owners to be jerked around by US tech support as to whether we will receive the upgrade.  So I believe it is safe to assume the best in that regard.  (Despite the fact that US tech support appears to be out of the loop, and told some forum participants that there are no plans to fix these problems.  And apparently, based on some forum reports, refused to believe that these problems were even occurring, thus my concern and why I included this caveat.)

To those who have posted nervous questions about whether to buy the Z3100, my response is that you should take advantage of the rebate before it expires.  Bear in mind that the roller and star wheel marks are inconsistent.  They appear to occur more frequently with some users than with others.  And even when they do occur, it is inconsistent and not on all papers.  My point is that the printer works for all us, and will work for you, until HP releases the fix in three to six months.  I assume that once the fix and parts are available, instructions will some out of Spain to US tech support to cooperate and facilitate the installation of those parts.  In the meantime, take advantage of the rebate if this printer interests you.  See my comments in the other thread about "talking me out of the Z3100."

Finally, I told the HP team that I am very impressed by the large number of tech bulletins and manuals that they have provided.  The number of tech documents and wide range of topics that are covered simply blows away the meager support from Epson.  In the Technical Newsletter of Nov 2007, HP actually tells us what the settings in the drivers do, although as noted below, more information is still needed. They have done a great job of providing flexible drivers, and tech docs, with a range of options such as "less ink" and "more ink" with generic settings that can be used with a range of papers.

But I did offer two suggestions in that regard.  They should provide an additional document explaining when and how these various settings should be used.  This is especially important for many advanced amateurs who simply don't have the experience to know how all of these settings might work.  Some professional photographers might not understand all of these settings either, if they aren't graphic artists who print all day, every day, and might not run all the tests to understand all of the settings..  When should we use less ink or more ink?  What is the difference?  When do we use the option for longer drying? What should we look for?  When should we use Fine Art Pearl -- based on the surface appearance of the paper?  For example, I assume Epson Exhibition Fiber has a somewhat FAP appearance (I haven't seen it) since some use that setting, but Epson recommends Luster.  Wouldn't Luster be closest to Semi-Gloss/Satin in the HP driver?  Again, HP doesn't tell us.   At the present time they only provide the options, and we are left to guess as to when to use those options.  And the same document should point out, for example, that Fine Art and Fine Art >250 use the same head height, the only difference is in the volume of ink.  I was confused on that point until I read a reference to that on the wiki, and then studied the table in their tech bulletin very carefully.  Another example -- a revised or new tech bulletin should explicitly point out, for example, that only FIne Art > 250 uses the Quad Inks.  You have to study their table very carefully to catch that. (Sure, some of this is covered in the forum.  But that means that anyone who just bought a 3100 would have to plough through all of the postings to catch these small nuances.  It would be far better for HP to simply provide an additional document that explains the various settings.)

My second suggestion was that they update their Nov 2007 Technical Newsletter on non-HP papers, and do so every few months to reflect the three or four papers that are currently the hot best sellers -- tell us what settings to use.    A new document that explains the settings would be read in conjunction with a Tech Bulletin that provides the settings for new papers, and together that would answer many questions as new papers are released.  In its Nov 2007 technical paper, HP also currently lists a number of strange and rarely used papers, that are almost never cited in this forum as papers we use, such as Tetanol and Fuji, in addition to some that we do use, like Crane and Hahnemuhle.  Let's hope that HP adds more of the papers that are actually used and most frequently mentioned on the forum.  I also suggested that if they really have the universal printer, they should include Epson and papers like Epson Exhibition Fiber, although I admitted that HP marketing might view that suggestion as heresy. But if HP includes Epson in their tech document, telling us what settings to use, and Epson does not, it sends a clear message as to which printer really is the Universal Printer.  

The team in Spain didn't specifically respond regarding my suggestions for the otherwise excellent tech support document, other than to thank me and say that my suggestions would be seriously considered.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 12:51:29 am by marty m »
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dkeyes

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 05:03:48 pm »

Marty,
Thanks for the update. I've been putting off having someone look at my rollers/starwheels assuming no fix was really available. Hasn't affected my core papers, just some other infrequently used papers. I might as well get my name "on a list" somewhere so when this fix is available, I can get it done.
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deanwork

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 06:08:52 pm »

Yes, thanks a lot for that update! You know they could resolve these star wheel assembly and roller marks on fiber gloss before the summer if they  really wanted to. It certainly isn't rocket science. You just watch, they will be unveiled just about the time HP comes out with their own fiber gloss meda. What else is new. They are  just like Epson in the sense that the purpose of these printers is to sell us ink and their media. Oh well. So, it will be plastic satin until summer....at least it looks great.

john




Quote
Marty,
Thanks for the update. I've been putting off having someone look at my rollers/starwheels assuming no fix was really available. Hasn't affected my core papers, just some other infrequently used papers. I might as well get my name "on a list" somewhere so when this fix is available, I can get it done.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 08:03:15 pm by deanwork »
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Geoff Wittig

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 07:26:22 pm »

Thanks! This is certainly good news. Love the printer overall, and it's nice to know the HP gurus are at work on the problem.
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Colorwave

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2008, 08:57:22 pm »

Thanks for the update, Marty.  Now all HP has to do is execute on their plans and have Tech Support apologize for implying repeatedly that I am lying about roller marks and a new design being in the works.  

Might I ask how you managed to connect with Barcelona?  I've supposedly been passed up through the most senior tech support people in the US, but never been presented with the "nuclear" option of going over their heads on the other side of the Atlantic.

georgek:  Did your new starwheel assembly include a motor that adjusted tension, or was it just the starwheel assembly itself?  And yes, those are the same pinch rollers, slightly bigger and brown vs. gray, that HP said must be whipped up by some third party that are being passed off as genuine HP.  You did ask for identification from your field tech, right?  

-Ron H.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 09:02:07 pm by Colorwave »
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neil snape

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 11:45:14 am »

HP's communication on these issues needs work. They were definitely quite far advanced on a working solution last time I had contact with them.
As far as HP tech support, they are seriously not informed on the design groups intentions. How could they be , as these are not released products.
When the testing on site is validated I'm sure all localisations of tech support will be immediately updated on status of the parts, process to install etc.
The good news is it looks like it will be a very short wait now the parts are installed in client sites.
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neil snape

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 12:06:19 pm »

I think they have addressed so many issues since the release in a logical order. When the printer was developed none of the current Baryta papers were out yet. They did have some prototypes and saw some of the problems that these papers had. The more important factor was to first make the printers work with the new optimised HP media first, which includes so many changes to the system it's staggering to think about the complexity involved.

It was written on this forum about quad inks etc, but agreen it is quite easy to miss it.

As far as HP recommending what are the best settings for which paper go, I disagree as to HP doing this at all internally.

My friend Joe Holmes and his good friend Bill Atkinson do this for Epson, as does Stephen Johnson, it would be better if they opened up some serious testing externally , fully supported as well. They need some real experts that know exactly what we need as photographers to do this set up guide.
The range of variation alone make it a huge task that need more man-hours be assigned now , not in the future. The only way this can work is with the handful of people with enough knowledge to make it all work. Until this is done , simply stating the notions of an on board spectro and profiler don't take the Z to it's limit. Close but in this niche market that is not good enough.
But before a lot of serious testing were to be done, the traction wheels should be done first as to make all media work with the Z this has to be a priority.
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marty m

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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 01:59:34 pm »

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I think they have addressed so many issues since the release in a logical order.
As far as HP recommending what are the best settings for which paper go, I disagree as to HP doing this at all internally.

My friend Joe Holmes and his good friend Bill Atkinson do this for Epson, as does Stephen Johnson, it would be better if they opened up some serious testing externally , fully supported as well. They need some real experts that know exactly what we need as photographers to do this set up guide.
The range of variation alone make it a huge task that need more man-hours be assigned now , not in the future. The only way this can work is with the handful of people with enough knowledge to make it all work. Until this is done , simply stating the notions of an on board spectro and profiler don't take the Z to it's limit. Close but in this niche market that is not good enough.
But before a lot of serious testing were to be done, the traction wheels should be done first as to make all media work with the Z this has to be a priority.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree that they have addressed issues in a logical order.  We didn't even know about the roller and star wheel problem when the printer was first released!

As for your suggestion about allowing external testing, I certainly would welcome that.  But I'm certainly not qualified!  Does HP need to provide more technical info to accomplish that?  Is that what Epson does?  

Or is this an issue that no one has volunteered to do such testing?  If it is the latter, that could be explained by the fact that Epson has no onboard spectro, so the outside profiles are heavily used by those who don't own a sophisticated spectro.  That is not the case with the Z3100 so there is less need and less demand for such an external service

In the meantime, a good next step would be a another Tech document explaining what all of the driver settings mean and can be used for, such More/Less Ink, Drying Time, etc.

I realize that those settings are self evident to some of you top-line experts, but that is not the case for me, and I suspect, many others.

Then they could add 3 to 5 additional non-HP papers to their list every four months.  Based on those papers that are most under discussion in this forum and elsewhere.  That would be 5 to 15 each year, which would be a far more comprehensive list after only one year.  

One of the other comments I made to them is that their list of papers is very odd.  I've never heard anyone on this forum, at least not that I recall, using papers from Fuji or Tetanal.  Why are those there?  Talk about a waste of their time to test those and provide the info on settings.  And if they are listed because those manufacturers make other name-brand papers for other manufacturers, well, make it simple.  Test the brands that we all are familiar with, and list those.  Right now 1/3 to 1/2 of the list is not very useful for any of us.
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marty m

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 03:07:11 pm »

Quote
As far as HP tech support, they are seriously not informed on the design groups intentions. How could they be , as these are not released products.
When the testing on site is validated I'm sure all localisations of tech support will be immediately updated on status of the parts, process to install etc.
The good news is it looks like it will be a very short wait now the parts are installed in client sites.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169962\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Neil, I respectfully disagree.  As I reported to Spain, HP tech support in the US flatly told forum participants that these parts are NOT in development and will NEVER be improved or fixed.  That caused many forum participants to be quite anxious if not just plain angry.  After all, US HP  tech support has essentially said the equivalent of "drop dead.  You suckers bought a $4,000 printer that causes marks from rollers and star wheels, and we aren't going to fix it or do anything about it."

This is just plain dumb.  I told the team in Spain that they need to more carefully monitor this forum, and respond with important factual corrections.  Either by allowing one of us to post and make the correction, or do it themselves.  (Just as Canon does on the Pro Photo forum by allowing a US Canon rep to post.)

Forget validating the testing.  When those first reports surfaced on the forum -- the erroneous reports from US tech support -- the team in Spain needed to both notify US tech support across the board, and correct the record here.  They needed to do it immediately.

Obviously, they can say that the parts will not be available for X number of months, and then double that just to play it safe

They didn't do that, and I believe my posting is one of the first to definitively correct the record.

Finally, the team in Spain first asked that I not reference them specifically.  I told them if I couldn't quote them, then my "correction" would be just another set of statements from US tech support.  Who should people then believe?  So Spain gave me permission to reference them in my posting.

Having said all of the above, I believe that HP is providing great service and standing behind the Z3100.  Standing behind it all the way.  And that is all that we can ask.

But, yes, I agree with you -- they need to improve how they communicate within HP, and to the outside world in a forum like this.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 04:01:06 pm by marty m »
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neil snape

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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 03:54:49 pm »

Not sure what you are disagreeing about.
I'll say it again, what comes upfront cannot possibly be in the behind the lines tech support. The design team of course receives lots of feedback from users on what should be fixed. Yet the upcoming solutions are simply not broadcast before their time.
I only had to deal with tech support for the Z one time for a DOA cartridge. The person on the phone was the ideal techie that knew a lot about the Z, the problems we are having, where HP are going with the problems etc etc. Localisations are a logistical worry, so many countries, languages, etc. From reports I have seen overall the tech support is very good, if not the best seen for LFP.
Just don't confuse the services they can do compared to the solutions provided by engineering.
It is obvious that there will always be grey areas and some information is intermediate before it is written into tech support worldwide. Yet as all companies do, you can't have and shouldn't have tech support suggesting things that are not yet done.
This is not to say that the reply for ongoing problems is not in need of a better approach, nor that the information is not better handled between this forum, and the parties that are actively doing something about the comments on this forum and their related support teams.

I don't think many words on this forum are missed BTW by the engineering group in Spain.
They have never ever been more connected so to speak.
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Colorwave

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HP Z3100 -- rollers and star wheels
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 07:20:19 pm »

Quote
There is no motor. The new starwheel has two black end plastic caps that if extended lift the assemply slightly. What kind of identification should I be asking for? It was clearly an HP part brought by an HP engineer...

Best
George
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George-
The motor rumor sounded odd to me, so that sounds much more likely.  My comment about ID was intended as humor, since HP tech support told me that I must be confusing a third party part with something provided by HP, even when presented with direct evidence to the contrary.

Neil-
I agree with you, that tech support should not be expected be informed of what engineering is working on that is still early in the development pipeline.  However, these parts have already been installed in more than one location in the US and Europe, and I wasn't just asking first level tech support about them.  I was allegedly in conversation with one of the four senior tech people in the US, who conferred with the other three, and then researched this for several days with other individuals within HP before telling me I was full of BS.  That sounds like a pretty significant communication problem to me.

You also mention that they read the boards here.  Do you think that they have ever checked their dusty and largely abandoned HP branded forum?  As best I can tell, they never have read or responded to any questions there.  It is a wasted opportunity for them to have direct customer feedback and for them to easily disseminate information to the masses (especially since they don't use their automatic email notification system for announcements, just marketing new products).  I love LL, but them having to monitor this forum seems odd, in that they never tried to make their own forum useful to end users or for their own purposes.

-Ron H.

PS:  All said, I'm still firmly in the HP camp, myself.  I have a friend that is wanting to by a 24" Z before the promotion ends and I'm suggesting that he pull the trigger.  He's fed up with Epsons.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 07:24:03 pm by Colorwave »
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marty m

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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 07:36:03 pm »

Quote
I was allegedly in conversation with one of the four senior tech people in the US, who conferred with the other three, and then researched this for several days with other individuals within HP before telling me I was full of BS.  That sounds like a pretty significant communication problem to me.

Do you think that they have ever checked their dusty and largely abandoned HP branded forum?  As best I can tell, they never have read or responded to any questions there.  It is a wasted opportunity for them to have direct customer feedback and for them to easily disseminate information to the masses

-Ron H.

PS:  All said, I'm still firmly in the HP camp, myself.  I have a friend that is wanting to by a 24" Z before the promotion ends and I'm suggesting that he pull the trigger.  He's fed up with Epsons.
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I don't think Neil and are in disagreement, at least not about much.  I agree that tech support might not know about something in early development.  But I doubt that was the case here.  The postings on the rollers and star wheels go back many months.  My impression is that Spain has been working on this fix for sometime -- and was almost certainly already working on a resolution to these problems when reports were posted in the forum that a fix was NOT in development and would NEVER be released.  They should have corrected that.

I agree with Ron.  Since they HP completely ignores their own forums, they need to read and respond here.

And I am also still in the HP camp, as I hope my posts have made clear.  You should also look at my posting from the guy who wanted "to be talked out of buying the Z3100."  In all of this I've tried to be fair and balanced to all, including HP.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 07:36:41 pm by marty m »
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casterle

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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 11:16:31 pm »

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Yet the upcoming solutions are simply not broadcast before their time.
<snip>
This is not to say that the reply for ongoing problems is not in need of a better approach
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170040\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
IMHO, HP needs to do what many other tech companies have done - someone in the know (from Spain in this case) needs to be blogging about these issues. And when the blogger sees issues raised (as in these forums) he or she needs to blog quickly and post the link here.

BTW, as a general comment, I've had conversations with 'designjet' tech support people who obviously have NO knowledge of the Z printers.

-Leroy
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casterle

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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 11:31:43 pm »

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You also mention that they read the boards here.  Do you think that they have ever checked their dusty and largely abandoned HP branded forum?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170088\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Probably not, and as far as I'm concerned I hope they never do.

Their forum, for whatever reason, has not caught on. This one has. I'd like to see them direct their energy to the most active forums - and ideally to only one forum - because doing otherwise dilutes the knowledgebase.

If they reply in five forums then I've got to search five forums to make sure I've seen their reply (and if they reply in five forums they're wasting time that could be used to otherwise advance their product (and to protect my investment)).
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marty m

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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 11:37:39 pm »

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Probably not, and as far as I'm concerned I hope they never do.
If they reply in five forums then I've got to search five forums to make sure I've seen their reply (and if they reply in five forums they're wasting time that could be used to otherwise advance their product (and to protect my investment)).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170144\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I entirely agree.  The great advantage of this forum is that it is one stop shopping when it comes to the latest info on the Z3100
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Colorwave

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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 11:41:46 pm »

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IMHO, HP needs to do what many other tech companies have done - someone in the know (from Spain in this case) needs to be blogging about these issues. And when the blogger sees issues raised (as in these forums) he or she needs to blog quickly and post the link here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bingo!  Adobe has lots of bloggers, of varying interest to me, but John Nack (http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/) is a personal favorite.  He primarily covers items of interest that are related to, but not directly coming from Adobe.  When issues arise, though, like the recent concern about Adobe snooping through a third party server, John was instrumental in alerting Adobe to users concern, as well as getting Adobe's side of the story out.  It's a very efficient communication medium, and good marketing without being the least bit hard sell.
-Ron H.
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rdonson

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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 07:55:52 am »

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I entirely agree.  The great advantage of this forum is that it is one stop shopping when it comes to the latest info on the Z3100
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170146\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True but once posted is generally lost until you use the search feature.  That's why its important to put info into the wiki if you to be able to easily find something.
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Ron

neil snape

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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 09:36:11 am »

The HP forums are a joke.
It is strange that this forum has become a resource to them meanwhile their own forum could be erased and know one would care.
As Marty said already, the miscommunication between the rollers, Barcelona, tech support and users sites is or was not handled well. As I said, tech support shouldn't have been going different directions, and Barcelona shouldn't have dropped parts in such a fashion. To run around and deny what they had said to others or what was posted here is a blunder. I am sure they know, tech support owes you an apology my friend.
I only heard about the new rollers here on this forum , even though it would have been logical to have the parts installed here where I am under NDA for much of the Z, even if it were to install on a shipping Z. In fact this very issue for me is of bigger importance than you think. If it weren't for their continuing communication problem especially on this issue they would surely have more of us trying to help them. I know I would have been happy to help them in these matters. They are showing their two left feet with gunshots in both.
At least they are working on a solution, hope it gets to users sooner than later.
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