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ndevlin

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Nick Devlin's G9 article
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 09:28:47 am »

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If an image is worth maing, then surely it is worth doing so at the highest level open to you; if it isnt worth the effort, how can it be worth shooting in the first place? What on earth can you want to do with second-best?
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Hi Rob,  

Please don't take this as an insult or personal criticism (you can't hear my tone in the typing --  this is not meant in an aggressive way) but I think your comment empitomizes the mistake-in-concept which plagues a large sector of the online photo-community. Namely, that the ironically labelled notion of 'Image Quality', whatever it is defined as, is an end-in-itself.  It has become the false-god of choice for far too many people.

What really matters is 'IC' - *Image Content*.  

Daguerotypes have awful IQ by contemporary standards. As does virtually anything shot before 1989 on other than large format film. As I observed on another forum recently, most of Cartier-Bresson's work is, by our IQ standards, soft, grainy and of very low resolution.  Half of Capa's combat photos are motion blurred (combat is a bitch that way). Eisenstadt's work has very little shadow detail.  Larry Burrows' photos' from Vietnam are seriously lacking in dynamic range. Eddie Adams and Nick Ut's Pulitzer Prize winners are both unsharp. Ditto Doisneau's Kiss.  I could go on and on.  Do any of us care? Did any of us even notice until we started talking about IQ?

On a theme more related to the type of photography this site is principly dedicated to, Galen Rowell shot most of his work on 35mm chromes, which are profoundly inferior by today's technical standards.  Again, did we notice or do we care?

The answer, of course, is no. These secondary traits of the image -- focus, accutance and the presence/absence of inherent medium-based artefacts (grain, loise, whatever)  -- are just that, secondary.  What compells us is the content of the image.

Several of my most treasured photos were taken with a 6MP fuji P&S.  They look great at 5x7. But what matters is that they captured a magical moment in time when I fell in love with the woman who is to be my wife. I would hand over my entire collection of hard-drives unflinchingly if forced to chose between them and my oevre of 'serious' digital photography.  Why? Because of the 'IC'.

Should I have brought an H1 with a $40K Phase back on a romantic escape? Of course not.  More to the point, had I hoisted such a beast between myself and my beloved, the moment would have been erased before it was ever captured, by the shere size and mechanical mass of the camera.  

Similarly, the reason Cartier-Bresson, Capa, Rowell, et. al. were able to capture their images AT ALL, was because of the size/type of cameras they used.

For me, when I travel alone, I usually rise at dawn, and walk 10-20 kms over the course of the day.  The ONLY way I can make the images I made on this trip was with a camera like the G9.  

If commercial imperative had driven my trip, then of course I would have taken cameras capable of better resolution, tone, etc. But the nature of the equipment taken cannot be separated from the nature of the experience itself, which is, of course, central to nature of the images made during the journey.  This applies equally to weeks in Japan and the span of one's life.  

So you are totally right, and totally wrong, at the same time.  Every image is worth capturing at the best level of quality. But the quality of many images, in fact their very existence, is largely, if not exclusively, dependent upon the camera-in-hand, if only because having to carry "better" cameras would in many cases prevent one from getting to (or getting) the image at all.  

If we went on the same trip, me with the G9 and you with a full kit of the best cameras, lenses and accessories made, I would outshoot you every time.  Why? Because I will be able to go further, longer, and harder because I have no physical burden, and because I will see more, and more deeply, because I am not distracted psychologically by the responsibility and myriad of choices and technical distractions imposed by such a collection of *stuff*.  

My point in this article, and here, is that, while still deeply flawed as measured against the 'ideal',  a P&S camera like the G9 can produce image quality which will allow me to do just about anything I want with the images at the end of the day.  Assuming you had herculean strength and kept up with me on the trip, the files yielded by the 'Top Gear', while 'better' according to various arbitrary empirical measures, wouldn't actually afford you much greater ultimate useability. Sure, you could print a cleaner 30x40 print.  How many 30x40 prints have you ever made? Me, about five in 20 years of shooting.  If National Geographic would print a double-truck off K200 shot on Canon FD glass (and they have) they sure as hell would print a well processed G9 file.  

So, to borrow a concept from buddhism, unhook from your stuff! Stop worrying about IQ and start worrying about IC.  Don't judge the picture by whether your eye sees noise, but whether your heart sees meaning and feeling.  

Wow -- is it 9:30 already? I better go to work....

Cheers,

- N.
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JohnKoerner

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Nick Devlin's G9 article
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2008, 10:14:16 am »

That was a wonderful post.

What got me into photography was taking butterfly photos for my niece. I used a simple Powershot G6 last summer and took several wonderful shots with them. As I began to find a tremendous joy in this (loosely-defined) macro work, I began to get more serious about my photography and have wanted to upgrade my equipment for this upcoming spring and summer.

Yet I stop to think about how many really nice photos I would have missed, if I had to lug around a full-size camera, tripod, and legitimate macro lens? How many beautiful specimens would have "flown away" as I was getting the height adjusted on my tripod legs, the correct ISO settings on my camera, etc.?

Yet, because I had a simple point-n-shoot, of reasonable quality, I was able to creep-up and hold still just long enough to get my shot. Were they the finest-quality photos every taken in the history of photography? No. But they were still beautiful shots and they still made me and my niece smile ... and they were of a lot better image quality than what an empty frame would have looked like, had I lost the opportunity to get the shot at all, by scaring the butterfly away while setting-up and fiddling with higher-end equipment.

For this reason, I upgraded to a Powershot G9 and I can't wait to start the new season. I believe my "image quality" will be better than with the G6, but yet the simplicity and ease-of-use will be there too.

I am still wanting to purchase higher-end equipment also, because I want to explore other areas of photography too where I will have more time to deliberate, but I think all of this techno-babble about ISOs etc. takes away from the whole point of photography, which is personal enjoyment by capturing a moment, and not whether the shot was the most technically-sound, noisless photo of a nothing subject ever taken by man.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 10:15:32 am by JohnKoerner »
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Sfleming

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Nick Devlin's G9 article
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2008, 11:09:42 am »

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Hi Rob, 


What really matters is 'IC' - *Image Content*.   



- N.
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Brav0 !!!
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Rob C

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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2008, 01:09:11 pm »

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When they make a Nikon D3 or Canon 1Ds MKIII that fits in a pocket your point will be valid. (Or didn't you actually read the article?)

Michael
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Yes, Michael, I did read it; but that doesn´t answer my question about second-best. I just find it hard to grasp that one can have double standards based on weight. Of the camera, I mean.

I have had a couple of heart events, have a stent implanted too and of course that affects how much weight I can carry on photographic adventures. But having said that, I still will not consider shooting anything worth shooting less well than I know that I can with the limited range of equipment that I now own. And if it is not worth shooting well, then I don´t shoot it at all. Why bother if I´d have to discard it later?

I did say I had no intention of starting a verbal fight; why bring one to me?

Rob C

Gordon Buck

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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2008, 02:00:17 pm »

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What really matters is 'IC' - *Image Content*.   

Cartier-Bresson's...C apa's...  Eisenstadt's ... Larry Burrows' ... Eddie Adams and Nick Ut's ...  Doisneau's ...   

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Not to mention my Kodak Brownie shots taken at the age of ten.  If I ever get that time machine working one of the first items on the agenda is to give that boy a few dollars so he can get some more snapshots.
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michael

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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2008, 02:10:08 pm »

No fight intended. Sorry if it came across that way.

Life is full of amazing photographic opportunities and sometimes a shot, any shot, is worth having even if the IQ is less than stellar.

As Adams is reported to have said, There's nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy idea.

Michael


Quote
Yes, Michael, I did read it; but that doesn´t answer my question about second-best. I just find it hard to grasp that one can have double standards based on weight. Of the camera, I mean.

I have had a couple of heart events, have a stent implanted too and of course that affects how much weight I can carry on photographic adventures. But having said that, I still will not consider shooting anything worth shooting less well than I know that I can with the limited range of equipment that I now own. And if it is not worth shooting well, then I don´t shoot it at all. Why bother if I´d have to discard it later?

I did say I had no intention of starting a verbal fight; why bring one to me?

Rob C
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Rob C

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« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2008, 02:25:23 pm »

ndevlin

Nice shot, but not quite on target.

You refer to a variety of photojournalists spanning several eras and different wars;  fine, but you forget to mention (or I miss it) that they were all using state-of-the-art cameras. You might or might not be justified in the assumption that their work sucks by contemporary standards of image quality in the sense of ultimate sharpness or tonal range; that is hardly surprising in a war sitiuation. But who, here, is talking in terms of that level of stress? We are, I think, talking of a normal, happy, comfortable and non-threatening photographic situation where  there is not a lot to distract or frighten one from the shooting of the image.

Harking back to the Vietnam guys for second, it seems that they started with Leica but swapped to Nikon because when the Leicas were down for repair, the Nikons bought in Japan as stop-gaps proved to produce more contrast and better newsprint results. Not much lack of professionalism there... I have also had the pleasure of seing a Don McCullin exhibition and no lack of purely photographic technique there either - as much technique as eye. A different argument, olde-worlde techniques and bog-standard D 163, but it sure shows how we have thrown many a poor old baby out with the bathwater too.

Daguerreotypes. I think it a llttle bit of a false analogy to include quite such early photographic experiments within the context of current IQ! That there is a current school of photographer seeking out such techniques also mystifies me, but what would I know? Must be an art market thing.

Doisneau and his Rolleiflex were not really under stress with The Kiss: he has gone on record  saying it was set up. If you find IQ lacking, perhaps it is either the print you have seen or the repro in the book or magazine. Or, of course, his technique, none of which afffects the question of why use a lesser camera than one already owns. If bad technique, it is with all formats at all prices!

I have absolutely no argument with you about IQ, in the sense of the message within the frame being paramount; where we do have a serious difference of opinion is in making that very picture using less than your best camera. If you are saying that you cannot capture the same sort of image with your best equipment, then perhaps your best equipment isn´t what you should have bought in the first place - perhaps that M6 or M7 might have been a better choice! Wish I had one!

I am also far from willing to agree with you that Rowell´s 35mm Velvias or Kodachromes are ´profoundly inferior´ to today´s stuff! But there are as many others who would disagree with you on that point as there are those who would endorse your opinion.

My own gear, when still a busy pro, was mainly Hasselblad and Nikon. They were both top cameras and each, in its range, was as good as it got. No, I did not use Hasselblad to the exclusion of Nikon, nor did I think in the opposite direction either; each fitted a different need. But, and this is the esence of the only point I was making in the original question: each camera was the best available within its format in the earnest belief that it would be as good as I was capable of being; I did not expect either format to out-perform me or add magic beyond my own.

But, as with everything else in life and this has been no exception, there are always more questions than answers. And, of course, opinions.

Cheers - Rob C

Rob C

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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2008, 02:29:28 pm »

Quote
No fight intended. Sorry if it came across that way.

Life is full of amazing photographic opportunities and sometimes a shot, any shot, is worth having even if the IQ is less than stellar.

As Adams is reported to have said, There's nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy idea.

Michael
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Absolutely, Michael, but would one have failed to get the same shot with better equipment? Alas, that will never be known. However, from my own experience, it is far better to wander around with one fixed focal length on the camera and leave the rest at home. On a personal shoot - not for money!

Ciao - Rob C

Rob C

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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2008, 03:24:44 pm »

Quote
No fight intended. Sorry if it came across that way.

Life is full of amazing photographic opportunities and sometimes a shot, any shot, is worth having even if the IQ is less than stellar.

As Adams is reported to have said, There's nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy idea.

Michael
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Just occurred to me: Ansel, if he did say that, could have been mistaken. Far worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy idea could well be a fuzzy picture of the same idea. It also makes me wonder if he was speaking in commercial or spiritual terms - I doubt that he ever paid any mind to the Beatles, either: unlimited commercial approval and success for extremely sharp fuzzy ideas!

Oh well - cést la vie.

Rob C

Sfleming

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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2008, 04:27:32 pm »

By the way:

This discussion has found its way over to the dpreview.com site in both the D3 board and the Open Talk board.
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Gabe

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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2008, 05:35:35 pm »

Quick question for those out there with a G9:


The last G-series camera I have experience with that was capable of shooting in RAW mode was the G5, and one feature I thought was really REALLY great was the ability to keep the camera set to JPEG mode, but to opt for a RAW file when the just-shot photo was being displayed on the screen by pressing the 'quick' button (if I remember what they called it correctly).

This way, you could still have the speed/filesize advantages provided by JPEGs, but still grab a RAW file if something about a particular shot seemed to call for it..

Does the G9 offer that sort of thing?
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Rob C

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« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2008, 06:49:40 pm »

Quote
By the way:

This discussion has found its way over to the dpreview.com site in both the D3 board and the Open Talk board.
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Do you mean we are being sold without permission, sans a photographers´ version of a model release?

Ciao - Rob C

Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2008, 07:30:12 pm »

Quote
Don´t want to start any fisticuffs here, just posing a question: those who already own high-grade cameras, why would you also own a cheaper, less good camera? If an image is worth making, then surely it is worth doing so at the highest level open to you; if it isnt worth the effort, how can it be worth shooting in the first place? What on earth can you want to do with second-best?

Rob C
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Rob,

When I read your post I immediately tried to imagine what my 2006 trip to Tuscany might have been like if I had done it back when I owned an 8x10. The mere thought of lugging that and a tripod and a bunch of film holders around while strolling the streets of Florence made my back ache.

The actual trip was a two-camera trip, as are most of my photo trips. At that time my DSLR was a 10D, and my pocket camera was a lowly S60 (I think it's about 5 megapixels). Even the 10D was heavier than I wanted to carry when I was out strolling around, tourist fashion. But the S60 was always in my hand or pocket, and I ended up with many shots from the S60 (mostly snapshots, but many serious images as well), some of which have made it into exhibits and sold prints (of modest size, to be sure).

Not every situation needs the heaviest and best equipment. Given the choice between getting a carefully-made image from a modest camera and getting no image at all, I'll opt for the modest one every time.

Eric
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2008, 08:16:25 pm »

I'd like to chime in on this topic. While in Iraq, I carried my Olympus SP-350. Not because it has awesome high-ISO noise performance, or has a stellar lens, but because it offers reasonably good photo performance in a small, light pocketable package. When you're already carrying 40+ pounds of body armor, gear, ammunition, and a weapon, another 40 pounds of Canon 1-series DSLRs and L glass just isn't workable, especially when in an environment where being able to move quickly can be a matter of life and death. So I accepted some compromises regarding image quality and handling performance, but was able to get some shots I wouldn't have gotten otherwise:





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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2008, 08:37:39 pm »

Quote
I'd like to chime in on this topic. While in Iraq, I carried my Olympus SP-350. Not because it has awesome high-ISO noise performance, or has a stellar lens, but because it offers reasonably good photo performance in a small, light pocketable package. When you're already carrying 40+ pounds of body armor, gear, ammunition, and a weapon, another 40 pounds of Canon 1-series DSLRs and L glass just isn't workable, especially when in an environment where being able to move quickly can be a matter of life and death. So I accepted some compromises regarding image quality and handling performance, but was able to get some shots I wouldn't have gotten otherwise:






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Reminds me of a friend I used to fly with. He was an Army Cobra pilot who saw combat in Iraq, Somalia etc. He always carried a disposable camera (no focusing or exposure calculations) velcro'd to the windscreen upright. Always there and always fast. Amazing pictures while flying and getting shot at.
Marc
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 01:50:42 am by marcmccalmont »
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Gordon Buck

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« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2008, 08:46:25 pm »

Quote
Quick question for those out there with a G9:
The last G-series camera I have experience with that was capable of shooting in RAW mode was the G5, and one feature I thought was really REALLY great was the ability to keep the camera set to JPEG mode, but to opt for a RAW file when the just-shot photo was being displayed on the screen by pressing the 'quick' button (if I remember what they called it correctly).

This way, you could still have the speed/filesize advantages provided by JPEGs, but still grab a RAW file if something about a particular shot seemed to call for it..

Does the G9 offer that sort of thing?
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In a word, no.  My G3 could do the same quick conversion; however, the G9 will shoot in Raw + JPEG mode which my G3 could not do.
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2008, 09:11:04 pm »

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I've had a G9 I've been using for about 4 months now. Like you, I am unsure about the camera in some respects. While I very much like the body and features, and how easy it is to access controls on the camera, I have issues around the image quality. I have a couple of F-series Fujis, and while they do not shoot in RAW, they quite simply mop the floor with the G9 when it comes to noise performance shooting in low light at high ISO.
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Well, here's a 100% crop nearly-literal RAW conversion of an ISO 3200 RAW with no noise reduction (and no sharpening; which would increase noise further), from the S6500fd, which uses the same sensor:



As you can see, the sensor and readout circuitry are not as noise-free as the JPEGs appear to be.  The Fuji NR is extreme, approaching a cartoon-like character, IMO.
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John Camp

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« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2008, 09:50:24 pm »

Nick,
I was with you all the way until you said,

"If we went on the same trip, me with the G9 and you with a full kit of the best cameras, lenses and accessories made, I would outshoot you every time. Why? Because I will be able to go further, longer, and harder because I have no physical burden, and because I will see more, and more deeply, because I am not distracted psychologically by the responsibility and myriad of choices and technical distractions imposed by such a collection of *stuff*."

But very few of the great photographers of any kind, after about 1930, were crippled by the weight of their gear. Capa's photos weren't always as sharp as they might have been, but he didn't complain about carrying a Leica around. If another photographer of your skills and physical abilities went on a trip with you, and you carried a G9 and he carried a Leica and 3 or 4 lenses, I doubt that he'd fall very far behind, and he would get ultimate shots that were better than yours if only for their color and definition and the ability to print big. If you want to find somebody that prints bigger than your G9 will tolerate -- and apparently makes a living at it -- you need look no further than the guy you borrowed the G9 from. And what if the other shooter said, "Why don't we go out after dark and hit some cafes and shoot some night life along the river, under the moon -- you take your G9 and I'll take my Nocti..."? Then, my friend, you'd be SOL.

The G9 isn't a better camera than the Leica; the Leica isn't a better camera than the D3; the D3 isn't a better camera than the latest Hassy. They're just all "best" for some stuff. The G9 is best for memory shots and for travel-travel; claiming much more for it is stretching the truth a little...
IMHO, of course.

JC
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Ray

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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2008, 01:52:36 am »

I've trekked up mountains in Nepal all day long with two cameras slung around my neck, a 5D with fairly heavy and bulky Sigma 15-30 and 20D with 24-105/f4 IS zoom, and at the age of 64. Of course I had a porter to carry the rest of the gear   .

I tend to think there's a novelty factor with these small P&S cameras. Initially one is so impressed that such a small and lightweight camera can produce the results it does, but gradually one uses it less and less if one has a DSLR which one knows will produce technically better shots. At least that's my experience.

A fuzzy image with a sharp concept might always trump a sharp image with a fuzzy concept, but how about a sharp image with a sharp concept! (I'm not trying to make a point that Nick's G9 images are not sharp. They are. This is just an analogy that Michael also used).

I think this is Rob's point. If you do happen to capture a fantastic shot which you would like to sell and reproduce in different size prints up to poster size, one might regret having taken along the G9 instead of the 5D or D3.
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NikoJorj

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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2008, 04:11:23 am »

Quote
Pocket-fitting or not-pocket-fitting seems to me to be the critical point;
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Sure that Leica owners have big pockets! (or do they carry their wallet in a wheelbarrow?)

Sorry for french humour, but that just gives me the occasion to thank Nick Devlin for his soooo refreshing review!
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