tsiphoto has spoken

[DarkPenguin]

One of the big ones (which seems odd with my want of liveview) is that the viewfinder on the 40D is much better than the 450D.  Better magnification and better eyepoint.  There is a thing that doesn't like eye glass wearers - Viewfinder designers.  (And I'm not getting lasik.  I saw what happened to Ned Flanders in the future.)

The AF on the 40D looks to be a better setup.  The speed helps for poor man's IS.  It has a slightly higher sync speed (1/250 vs 1/200).  Has a PC sync socket.

The 10mp vs 12mp thing is a pure unknown.  With each camera I buy I've found that I l{o|oo}se an f stop.  With the 400D I'm not willing to stop down much beyond f11.  With the 20D I was willing to stop down more than that.  A touch more with the 300D.    There is a thing that doesn't like prairies - Noise reduction.

The fact that I can get it now rather than in april helps, too.  I've ideas for how to use live view that I need to work on before I use them in anger.

Plus The Man is due to give me $600 (deficit schmeficit) that more than offsets the price difference.

Anyways.  There were other minor things.  Didn't keep the list.  The 450D made me go through its spec and the dpreview review of the 40D pretty thoroughly before ordering.  If it was available now I'd have a harder time choosing.  Wasn't enough to make me wait.

Fair enough! But I can't help getting the impression Canon has complicated the decision making process with the introduction of the 450D. It's seems to have some desirable features which the 40D lacks.

[DarkPenguin]

It's a metal body rather than plastic. My old 350d took a huge amount of abuse, but i'd still rather have metal over plastic
Nope, although it's a start. I'd rather have the flash, shutter button and control dials sealed, they're the things that the rain hits first.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair enough.  I tomahawked my old 300d into the ground as I fell down a hillside.  Took a while to vacuum the dirt (not dust) out of the camera.  Person I sold it to (and yes, I told him) is still using it.

So long as the frame is metal I think it is pretty good.

As to the weather sealing I suppose those two spots were the biggies.  Figure canon will dole out weather sealed buttons one by one?  New on the 50D: Sealed direct print button!

[daethon]

I don't believe this.  I think it looks like it is built more solidly.  My old 300D and my 400D took far more abuse than my 20D did.  My 20D split its seams at the first opportunity.  Any weather sealing would be nice but I've never had a camera fail in the rain.  (20D did fail in the cold.  And it wasn't the battery.)  I have rain gear now so it shouldn't be an issue.

I'll start with this:  I own a 20D, I've played with the 40D, but only had it for a couple days, I've also used the XTi for about a week.  Two comments on the difference in the lines.

1) The XT series feels a lot less rugged.  plasticy, very light, etc.  
2) The 20D will take a lot of punishment.  Mine has been in the ocean twice and thrown against a rock.  The flash no longer functions, but all in all, I think that's pretty good considering what it has been through.  Now, I can't say what would happen to the XTi in the same situations, but the camera definitely doesn't look like it would take that type of punishment.

[DarkPenguin]

My 20D didn't take well to the rock thing.  I remember back in the 80's dropping my Minolta off of a curb.  Not a problem.  Tried to get one more frame from a roll of film and snapped the winder.  Unreal.

[John Sheehy]

Exactly--a 16mp 5d form factor body at around $3000 is to me a dream camera, and will probably become the biggest selling Canon of all time.  Maybe image quality won't be that much better, but 16mp for cropping, especially if you shoot "4x5", is a huge plus.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All recent Canon DSLRs of all ranks have higher quantum efficiency, less read noise at low ISO, and less banding noise (which is very visible, but doesn't manifest itself in read noise statistics very well) than the 5D.  Any 5D replacement is bound to have at least 1/2 stop better DR at all ISOs at the pixel level, and a higher base ISO (more photon sensitivity).

The 5D, to me, as good as it is, and as well as it has been filling a niche, is old tech, IMO, and that is why I have put off buying FF until the 5D replacement.  The 5D is basically a 20D with 50% more pixels, spread farther apart (and therefore, less taxing on lenses, at least in the center of frame).

I really wish, however, that it would come out in the spring, as I prefer to do nighttime street photography in warm weather.

[Ray]

Look at it this way, John. The 5D upgrade is going to rival the 1Ds3. In some respects it's probably going to beat it.

You can't expect this technology next month.

[ejmartin]

Look at it this way, John. The 5D upgrade is going to rival the 1Ds3. In some respects it's probably going to beat it.

You can't expect this technology next month.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, they're definitely going to have to cripple it in some way  

[daethon]

My 20D didn't take well to the rock thing.  I remember back in the 80's dropping my Minolta off of a curb.  Not a problem.  Tried to get one more frame from a roll of film and snapped the winder.  Unreal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169741\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was taking pictures on a stormy day from about 100 feet into the shore.  A rock outcropped about 15 feet or so, and the tide was rising.  It was a stormy day, so there I was getting some fun shots of the waves crashing against the rock next to me with the town in the background.  On the way back I put the camera into a water resistant bag to avoid splash up on the way back through the water to the cliff i came down.  As I was wading back through the water, I accidentally let go of the bag and tossed it about 10 feet onto a rock.  

My lens (Canon 24 f/1.4L) stopped working, focus ring got disconnected or something, but the camera worked fine.  I sent the lens into canon, and they fixed it...no further problems have arisen.

[Steve Kerman]

Yeah, they're definitely going to have to cripple it in some way 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is the case only if you assume that the demand vs. price curve is relatively inelastic.  That does not at all appear to be the case--I expect that if they produce the best 5D II they can build for the money, they will sell several 5D II's for each 1DsIII sale that they cannibalize.

Also, remember the extreme competitiveness of the Japanese.  Their first concern is likely to be to crush Nikon.  To do that, they need to sell the best technology, at the best price.

Producing crippled products is counterproductive in that environment.  And I believe that the decision-makers at Canon are smart enough to know that.

[DarkPenguin]

I was taking pictures on a stormy day from about 100 feet into the shore.  A rock outcropped about 15 feet or so, and the tide was rising.  It was a stormy day, so there I was getting some fun shots of the waves crashing against the rock next to me with the town in the background.  On the way back I put the camera into a water resistant bag to avoid splash up on the way back through the water to the cliff i came down.  As I was wading back through the water, I accidentally let go of the bag and tossed it about 10 feet onto a rock. 

My lens (Canon 24 f/1.4L) stopped working, focus ring got disconnected or something, but the camera worked fine.  I sent the lens into canon, and they fixed it...no further problems have arisen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169778\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My 20D fell about 4 feet on to billion year old rock.  The billion year old rock won.

I think you have a significantly better copy of the 20D.

[bing]

Thanks Jonathan.. I had not been aware of the CF to SD adapter Maplin uk have said item... can now get the express card SD card reader and have 2 SDs in the Canon

[dwdallam]

  Is 14-bit RAW worth an extra grand?  Live View? Digic III?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168782\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And remember self cleaning sensor that Micheal has said does a brilliant job even after many lens changes in the field. Oh yes, and the increased size and view ability of the LCD in ALL light situations. Oh yes, a better menu navigation system. Oh yes, and it's most likely going to have 16MPs so as not to compete with the 40D. I mean how many peple would buy the 40D instead of a new 3K 5D with only 3MPs of difference between them--uh, none? Are you kidding? An updated 5D with everything the 40D and MKIII got is well worth 3K, especially if it's 16MPs. Is the MKIII worth 5K additional US dollars if the 5D is 16MPs? Sure, if you need the pixels (and who doesn't)  and can afford it.

In a word--YES.

[dwdallam]

I also have wondered how many 5D owners will feel the need to upgrade at this point.  I know I won't.  Even if its 'spectacular'---for many of our needs (even wants), our current 5D is sufficient. 

Diane
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For most people a Rebel xTI is sufficient too, but if you are doing a lot of landscape stuff, the extra pixels and auto sensor cleaning--for many lens changes--is really not a sufficient question, but one of necessity from a quality perspective. If I were shooting traditional family portraits I'd probably never buy anything more than a 40D or 5D--the 40D would allow you to use a 200mm lens at 320mm effective, giving a nice portrate lens from compression, not to mention the increase in sharpness across the eyes at angles and lower fStop settings.

For those of us who shoot many different types of images, such as myself where I use my 5D and a 70-200mm lens almost exclusively for portraits, then the extra pixels and other things are well worth it. I recently shot a gal for her advertising portfolio, and one of the images she liked the best was a full body she wanted cropped down to just above the waist, while maintaining a 8x10 (4:5) aspect ratio. Opps--where did all the pixels go?

[dwdallam]

Strangely enough I don't have any issues with the 5D body at all.


Not bothered about anti-dust. I haven't had to wet-clean my 5D sensor yet in a year of ownership, the odd blast with a rocket blower has been fine.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168836\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Really? What about having the top LCD information panel on the back--where it belongs-- where you can actually see it without having to climb over your tripod or tilt the camera backwards? What about having an ISO readout in the viewfinder--that's disgusting not having that information there.

I have to wet clean my sensor almost every time I come back after changing lenses. The sensor cleaning thing really pisses me off.

I'd love to have it weather sealed, and so would you after coming back from a week camping trip in Death Valley--seriously. I even carry my equipment in a large Pelican case that is sealed with a large "O" ring. That does keep things clean and dry, but not when you use it.

[dwdallam]

The d300 has the nicer AF and the pentax k10d and oly e-3 are sealed. All for under 2k.

Edit, pentax now has a sealed dslr for under $1000. Common canon, sealing is something every landscape photog can appreciate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The 5D is sealed. It's just not "professionally" sealed.  I talked to a tech from Canon on teh phone when I had my 24-70 calibrated, and he said you can shoot all day in mild rain or dust with a 5D and nothing will get inside. The extra sealing in the MK series is of course even better, but the sealing in the 40D and 5D are good enough for on location journalist photos, then you can bet it's pretty sealed. True, the battery and CF card compartments are not O ringed, but I doubt much is going to get inside from the shutter button and other buttons like those. I mean I don't think dust and water are going to work their way into the camera body through the CF or battery doors. If that were the case, then the camera would probably fill up with water from simple condensation, and in the first year Canon would be replacing lots of 5Ds, not to mention they would be out of business.

[dwdallam]

Since we are all speculating... I wonder how does that fit with the 1Ds Mk II market?  They still sell it, in fact, I'm torn between buying one used and tossing a wad on L lenses or getting the III and getting a few lenses.  If they under-cut the Mk II, would they be screwing the upgrade buyers looking to roll into the Mk III by selling their current Mk II's?

Just a thought...

Cheers,

-Andrew
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169342\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would assume the MKII selling is only back stock. Canon isn't making that camera any longer, I would bet.

[dwdallam]

Look at it this way, John. The 5D upgrade is going to rival the 1Ds3. In some respects it's probably going to beat it.

You can't expect this technology next month.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The technology is already there, on the ID, the 1Ds, and the 40D.

[dwdallam]

We have from January 31st to February 2nd 2008. If it's not announced then, we're screwed by the Rebel at 12Mps. lol

It's really hard for me to believe that the Rebel now has 12MPs and the 5D isn't getting an upgrade.

Replacing the EOS Rebel XTi / 400D, Canon has announced the EOS Rebel XSi / 450D, which is a 12.2 megapixel DSLR. Source: http://www.photographybay.com/2007/11/04/pma-2008-preview/

[Ray]

The technology is already there, on the ID, the 1Ds, and the 40D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169920\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Then there will be less reason to upgrade for me. The 5D has about one stop less noise than the 40D (at high ISO); about equal noise to the 1Ds3 when the 1Ds3 image is downsampled to the 5D file size. The 1D3 has an ISO 6400 and less noise than the 5D, I guess, but also fewer pixels.

In the meantime we have the Nikon D3 with marginally lower noise than both the 5D and 1Ds3. The 5D upgrade will have to contain newer technology than already exists in current Canon cameras if it's going to surpass Nikon.

12.7 to 16mp doesn't seem enough regarding increased image quality. But combine that with half a stop or more of lower noise, as well as all the other inevitable features such as faster frame rate, LiveView etc, then it becomes a very attractive package.

[dwdallam]

Then there will be less reason to upgrade for me. The 5D has about one stop less noise than the 40D (at high ISO); about equal noise to the 1Ds3 when the 1Ds3 image is downsampled to the 5D file size. The 1D3 has an ISO 6400 and less noise than the 5D, I guess, but also fewer pixels.

In the meantime we have the Nikon D3 with marginally lower noise than both the 5D and 1Ds3. The 5D upgrade will have to contain newer technology than already exists in current Canon cameras if it's going to surpass Nikon.

12.7 to 16mp doesn't seem enough regarding increased image quality. But combine that with half a stop or more of lower noise, as well as all the other inevitable features such as faster frame rate, LiveView etc, then it becomes a very attractive package.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair enough, but you're not calculating noise and an upgrade to NEW technology with a new 5D. If the noise on the 5D is already better than a 40D, etc., I wonder what it would be with the new technology inside?

The thing with more pixels is that if you want to sell your images to professional sites for advertising, books, etc., about the minimum they accept is 16MPs. So let's say we keep shooing and in a few years get good enough and have enough "stock" to actually be accepted by an online broker of "professional" images, and you have all these files taken with a 12.7MP camera.

I'm seriously thinking about forking over the loot and getting the 1DS3 for that reason. The 5D will be a nice portrait camera, for local jobs, and a nice backup camera. I just have to figure out how to eat and buy the 1DS3 at the same time. (I guess there is always bulk rice, beans, and hamburger for a few months, without eating out everyday like I do now.)

On the other hand, I'd also like to invest in a new 100-400 IS L lens, and a nice 50MM prime too. If I bought the updated 5D I'd have money for all of that. If I get the 1DS3, those lenses will need to wait for next year.