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Author Topic: High ISO with MFDBs?  (Read 5148 times)

Bevan.Burns

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« on: January 15, 2008, 02:19:07 pm »

Hi all, I just had a question about medium format digital backs in general. Why do they not compete with 35mm digital solutions in terms of high ISO capability? One of the 22MP digital backs with a 48x36mm sensor should have even larger photosites than a D3, so why can't they be shot at ISO6400 with little noise? What am I missing here?

Bevan
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Morgan_Moore

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 02:38:04 pm »

That the R+D budgets are minimal and they are basically lashed together from off the shelf products made for other applications - like medical/scientific or satelite phtography - market areas that are not demending of those ISOs ? ?

Check out Dalsa for example - it would appear that MF is a tiny proportion of thier market

I would love 2 D3 chips stuck toether  to make a back

S
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:38:26 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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eronald

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 02:43:29 pm »

Quote
Hi all, I just had a question about medium format digital backs in general. Why do they not compete with 35mm digital solutions in terms of high ISO capability? One of the 22MP digital backs with a 48x36mm sensor should have even larger photosites than a D3, so why can't they be shot at ISO6400 with little noise? What am I missing here?

Bevan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On my P45+ I can shoot to around 1600 to 2500 ISO and then it bottoms out. The night shots are more interesting, I believe, than what I get from Canon. However, I had to get a better sample of the back for this performance. The sensors are old tech, I guess. At 1/20 and f2.8 the Mamiya viewfinder is unusable or nearly unusable in that light anyway, and the AF has long since stopped working due to excessively low light (without assist). Maybe Contax does better, the lenses are a bit faster. Hasselblad users of the latest generation have also reported good results in low light.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:46:09 pm by eronald »
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John Sheehy

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 02:59:42 pm »

Quote
Hi all, I just had a question about medium format digital backs in general. Why do they not compete with 35mm digital solutions in terms of high ISO capability? One of the 22MP digital backs with a 48x36mm sensor should have even larger photosites than a D3, so why can't they be shot at ISO6400 with little noise? What am I missing here?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Many MFDBs don't really have large-well photosites; just a lot of spacing between them.

Most only have one true ISO, so high ISOs are achieved with an amplifier before the ADC.  If the company didn't take great care to get the read noise very low at ISO 100, it will just multiply with ISO.  The P30 is an example of one that starts with low read noise at ISO 100, so it isn't huge at higher ISOs as it might be if it started with higher noise at ISO 100.
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eronald

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 10:14:14 am »

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Many MFDBs don't really have large-well photosites; just a lot of spacing between them.

Most only have one true ISO, so high ISOs are achieved with an amplifier before the ADC.  If the company didn't take great care to get the read noise very low at ISO 100, it will just multiply with ISO.  The P30 is an example of one that starts with low read noise at ISO 100, so it isn't huge at higher ISOs as it might be if it started with higher noise at ISO 100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167384\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John have you had a look whether the P45+ is just a larger P30+ without microlenses, or is it different electronically too ?

Edmund
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John_Black

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 01:11:59 pm »

CMOS usually surpasses CCD in noise performance.
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John Sheehy

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 04:50:43 pm »

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John have you had a look whether the P45+ is just a larger P30+ without microlenses, or is it different electronically too ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you know of any links to RAW files?  Ones with OOF flat areas are especially useful, as pure measurements can be taken there.
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eronald

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 05:43:02 pm »

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Do you know of any links to RAW files?  Ones with OOF flat areas are especially useful, as pure measurements can be taken there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167638\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can make a file. Defocused colorchecker or flat area under Tungsten any use to you ?

Edmund
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bjanes

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 07:09:20 pm »

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Most only have one true ISO, so high ISOs are achieved with an amplifier before the ADC.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167384\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Isn't that how ISO is adjusted for nearly all digital cameras, both CMOS and CCD, p&s, 35 mm style, and medium format?
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John Sheehy

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 10:46:40 pm »

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I can make a file. Defocused colorchecker or flat area under Tungsten any use to you ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you want to accomplish a lot in one shot, make sure it has OOF near-black areas, and meter the OOF color-checker with an ambient meter or grey card so that we can get an estimate on what the real base ISO is.

I am looking at your ISO 800 of the woman that you used to show the striations in your first P45+.

Everything seems scaled low for a 16-bit RAW.  The highest value is only 9339 out of 65535, and that's the center of the bulb just above the woman's head.  I have a feeling that the RAW may actually be just like an ISO 50 or 100 RAW, and that high ISOs actually reflect absolute exposure, just with a metatag to tell the converter to brighten during conversion.  The RAW histogram shows most of the pixels less than 4000 and a near-flatline from about 4000 to about 7000 with a few direct lights and hot pixels up there; a single isolated area of specular highlights up to 9339, and nothing above that (empty up to 65535).

I am assuming that the camera leaves the full DR of the sensor in the RAW data at all ISOs.  If it is starting at ISO 50, and 50 is indeed what I am looking at in this RAW data, then the read noise is about double the P30 at the same exposure, but then again, I have no way of knowing what the real sensitivity of the RAW data is.  It may be that the RAW really reflects ISO 100, and not 50 (IOW, 50 implemented as an extra, low-headroom ISO), in which case the pixel-level read noise would be about the same as the P30 or slightly better, relative to absolute signal.

Anyway, the ratio of max signal to pixel read noise in this RAW is about 2000:1, compared to about 3000:1 for the best case cameras (1D(s)mk2/3, D3, Fuji S*.  2000:1 is about what you get for the Canon 5D at ISO 100.  On the other extreme is something like the D2X with about 1000:1 at ISO 100.  So, at the pixel level, the DR seems to be good, but not among the very best.  Of course, with all those pixels, the image-level DR performance should be excellent.  I don't subscribe to the notion that pixel DR directly limits image DR.

Relativistic characteristics like DR are much easier to determine from RAW data than absolute SNRs and base ISOs, as you can see.

The actual exposure index of the camera's lowest ISO is usually not that important to me; I use it mainly because of its DR.  When you get to higher ISOs, however, the game changes and absolutes become more important, as apertures and shutter speeds start to become harsh limiting factors and "exposing to the right" is not really a possibility all of the time.

Your camera seems to exhibit a real case of what I have theorized in the past; a scenario where ISO means nothing except a hint for the RAW converter, and any review image the camera may give.  The whole idea of exposing to the right for RAWs breaks down with this model, of course, as it is totally meaningless at any ISO other than the base one.  The "right edge" of the RAW histogram is the same at all ISOs, apparently.
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John Sheehy

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2008, 10:54:28 pm »

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Isn't that how ISO is adjusted for nearly all digital cameras, both CMOS and CCD, p&s, 35 mm style, and medium format?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167672\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Depends on how you define "nearly all".  Canon DSLRs (except the original 1D) were the only exception, AFAIK, until recently, and now you have the D3 and the D300, possibly the D40 and D50, with specialized readout modes at the photosites for high ISOs (and maybe some other brands whose RAWs haven't been scrutinized yet).  Now, based on the P45+ RAW I'm looking at here, it seems that some cameras don't even change the gain before the ADC for different ISOs.

Roger's belief that the ADC is the difference in Canon DSLRs is unfounded, IMO. (Later edit: I meant the difference between ISOs on the same camera)  If that were true, then there would be a smooth transition in read noise between ISOs in the 1D2 + 3 series and the 5D, going through all of the 1/3-stop ISOs, but there isn't, despite the fact that these extra ISOs are made with analog gain before the ADC, indicating that there are 5 to 7 unique amplifications at the photosites themselves.

A book on how digital cameras work can never be simple, apparently.  It seems to be a field of exceptions.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 08:12:47 am by John Sheehy »
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KevinA

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 04:45:26 am »

There is a lot of theory here as to how and why MF backs handle high iso, but what is the bottom line, can they be used at 400 and 800 iso and consistently produce good results? or consistently produce bad results.

Kevin.
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John Sheehy

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 08:27:36 am »

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There is a lot of theory here as to how and why MF backs handle high iso, but what is the bottom line, can they be used at 400 and 800 iso and consistently produce good results? or consistently produce bad results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The ones discussed so far are not optimized for high ISO like the Canons and new Nikons, as far as pixel read noise is concerned, but 45MP is a lot of pixels and can hide a lot of pixel weakness.  The worst high-ISO noise is the kind that is "banded", "1-dimensional", or "striated", as it does not dissolve/average away very much when you downsample or view at a very low magnification.  Edmund's original P45+ back had this one-dimensional noise, but the replacement does not show much of it.

If you're talking about a 6 to 22 MP back, then you should not expect Canon or D3-like low noise at high ISOs, as they won't have enough pixels to make the extra noise worthwhile.  I don't think it's time to buy MF for high-ISO, though.  It's just something extra that works relatively well on some models.  If it's high ISO you're after, you should get a Canon or D3.
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Morgan_Moore

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 08:30:32 am »

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There is a lot of theory here as to how and why MF backs handle high iso, but what is the bottom line, can they be used at 400 and 800 iso and consistently produce good results? or consistently produce bad results.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think some are good for 400 - a lot is personal opinion 'what is good enough' and what is 'correctly exposed' only your own tests will decide this

I cant really comment beyond my Sinar54LV which IMO struggles at 200 - but I only select 200 one the light is dropping so am probably correctly exposing for 400 - I am sure 200 with studio lights and good Ettr would be fine

The are of course newer generations of back now

S
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eronald

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 08:54:24 am »

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I think some are good for 400 - a lot is personal opinion 'what is good enough' and what is 'correctly exposed' only your own tests will decide this

I cant really comment beyond my Sinar54LV which IMO struggles at 200 - but I only select 200 one the light is dropping so am probably correctly exposing for 400 - I am sure 200 with studio lights and good Ettr would be fine

The are of course newer generations of back now

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well according to some remarks above, there may be no such thing as ETTR for MFDB.
If the back is really locked in to a nominal ISO and the rest is done by software ...
Then ETTR is only possible at the native ISO ie 50 for the current generation (100 for P30).


Edmund
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 08:55:13 am by eronald »
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awofinden

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2008, 09:43:47 am »

I actually use my P21 at ISO 200 all the time now, so long as you expose carefully there is virtually no noise.
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John Sheehy

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High ISO with MFDBs?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2008, 03:07:15 pm »

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Well according to some remarks above, there may be no such thing as ETTR for MFDB.
If the back is really locked in to a nominal ISO and the rest is done by software ...
Then ETTR is only possible at the native ISO ie 50 for the current generation (100 for P30).
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ETTR was born as a concept to stress the difference between film and digital, in the context of a camera's DR at a given ISO.  Underlying it, however, is a more universal digital camera principal - capture as many photons as possible.  That is still possible with your back, even though it seems to digitize all ISOs the same, with the same analog gain.  The only difference is that the "right edge of the histogram" at all ISOs except the lowest is an illusion; an arbitrary level in the RAW data.  More photons always means less shot noise relative to signal.  What you don't have to concern yourself with is choosing ISO as a means to maximize the signal-to-shot_noise ratio, as ISO only affects highlight headroom, and how bright any thumbnail TIFFs or JPEGs might be, or review images.

You certainly don't have to worry if you should underexpose at a high ISO, or useETTR at a high one; they result in the same RAW data (and hopefully, the converter used can process both the same way).
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