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Author Topic: Epson 3800 and matte papers  (Read 9134 times)

billg71

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Epson 3800 and matte papers
« on: January 11, 2008, 10:00:32 pm »

I just took delivery today of a refurbished 3800 to replace my old 2200. The 2200 had been relegated to matte black printing after I got my 4800 and has done a decent, if not outstanding, job on Velvet Fine Art, Lumijet Photo White Satin, Inkpress DuoMatte 44, and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. All using the manufacturer's profiles.

When I got the 3800 set up tonight, I ran a nozzle check/head cleaning routine, did an auto alignment from the printer panel and printed a B&W and a color test image on Ilford Smooth Pearl. Both prints came out equal to or slightly better than the same prints from the 4800, so I murmured a quick "Thank You!" to the printer gods, put on the rear feeder, stuck in a sheet of Photo Rag and printed the color image.

The results sucked! The image lost contrast, the shadow detail disappeared into a dark brown muck, for lack of a better term, and everything went flat. After a couple of tries at different resolutions and speeds, I decided I'd try an Epson profile and switched over to VFA... Things got even worse! The brownish muck was replaced by a yellowish-brown muck and spread over even more of my image. There is absolutely no way to even compare these prints to the same papers from my 2200, they're that bad!

The techie stuff: I'm printing from LR 1.3.1 in a decent Windows XP system, C2D, 4G RAM, etc.. Soft proofing in CS3 and the soft proof results look nothing like the prints. I've tried 1440 and 2880 resolutions, uni- and bi-directional. Media is set to Velvet Fine Art, quality varying as noted, color management off in the driver. Haven't played around with media or ink settings, figured if I couldn't get a halfway decent print at defaults I'd just be wasting paper and ink(as if I haven't already!). I'm running the 6.50 driver from the Epson site, latest version of the LFP panel, the printer came with the latest firmware so I didn't update it.

The more I look at the prints, the more I think I've got a bum MK cartridge or something's bad wrong with the printer. I have my ID plate at the bottom of the photo, set to 100% opacity and the override color to black. The text prints black on the PK prints but a medium gray on the MK prints. Looking at ink levels, my PK came down about 8% after printing 2 prints and cleaning/alignment(which took 5%) but the MK level shows 98% after a dozen 8.5x11's. Looks like the MK ink just isn't getting through to the paper.

Any suggestions/help/proof that I'm an idiot and overlooked something simple would be appreciated. About all I can think of is to wait until Monday and give Epson TS a call.

TIA for your help,

Bill
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[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:blue']"The doctor told how he was once fishing in the Wind River area of Wyoming and he looked up and far above on the side of the canyon two dogs sat on a rock peeking at him from the brush that surrounded the rock. Only they weren't dogs, they were coyotes. They were curious about what he might be doing standing in a river waving a stick." [span style='color:black']Jim Harrison, Farmer[/span][/span][/span]

Ken Bennett

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Epson 3800 and matte papers
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 10:18:23 am »

Are you using Epson's Advanced B+W mode? I'm hardly an expert b+w printer, but I've had my best results using ABW with matte papers. After some experimentation, setting "Neutral" and "Light" in the printer settings driver works best for me (though many others get their best results using "Darker").

You've probably seen the 3800 wiki, but if not, here's the link:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html

Cheers,

Ken
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JesseSpeer

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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 11:12:59 am »

It sounds like a simple head clog to me. You obviously know what you're doing, but I might suggest running another cleaning cycle or two (or more). Sometimes, one of the inks can be stubborn - in this case the MK. Did the nozzle check show any problems with MK? It's not unheard of for an Epson to clog, even after you just ran a nozzle check.
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billg71

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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 12:58:37 pm »

Quote
Are you using Epson's Advanced B+W mode? I'm hardly an expert b+w printer, but I've had my best results using ABW with matte papers. After some experimentation, setting "Neutral" and "Light" in the printer settings driver works best for me (though many others get their best results using "Darker").
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166710\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ken,

Thanks for the link, I've seen it and spent a little time on the page, it's a great resource.

Actually, I haven't tried any B&W on matte paper yet, I just grabbed the color image and have been concentrating on it. Both B&W and color print fine with the PK ink and they look outstanding on the Smooth Pearl. It's just when I switch over to matte paper that the problem started.

I've done a power clean and gotten somewhat better results, at least the text prints black now but the shadows in the print still don't look right. Compared to the same print from the 2200, the shadows are 'way blocked up. It seems like the printer's putting out too much ink, the prints are coming out almost damp and sre curling, something I never had happen with the 2200 on Photo Rag or Velvet Fine Art. Running Inkpress DuoMatte 44 with the Inkpress or Enhanced Matte profile, the ink at the bottom of the page is still wet when it comes out. I'm also getting some black spotting at the lower(trailing) corners on the Photo Rag but not with the VFA or Enhanced Matte.

And this is all happening even at 1440/low speed. I used to run these same papers at high speed and 2880 res through the 2200 with none of these problems.

Here's the image:
 

So far I've used 140ml of ink, 36 sheets of paper and 38% of the maint. cartridge.... Hope this gets better real soon!

Thanks to all for your help,

Bill
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 12:59:57 pm by billg71 »
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[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:blue']"The doctor told how he was once fishing in the Wind River area of Wyoming and he looked up and far above on the side of the canyon two dogs sat on a rock peeking at him from the brush that surrounded the rock. Only they weren't dogs, they were coyotes. They were curious about what he might be doing standing in a river waving a stick." [span style='color:black']Jim Harrison, Farmer[/span][/span][/span]

madmanchan

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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 03:26:50 pm »

Which profile are you using when printing on the matte papers?
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Eric Chan

billg71

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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 03:43:20 pm »

Quote
Which profile are you using when printing on the matte papers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166780\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric,

I'm using the paper manufacturer's profiles for MK. The Inkpress is Inkpressppm44r3800, driver set for Enhanced Matte, the Hahnemuhle is HFA3800PhotoRagMK, driver set for Velvet Fine Art, for the VFA I'm using the Epson profile, Pro38VFAP and the VFA driver setting.

Print quality has gotten better after the last round of cleanings but I'm still getting blotches on the trailing corners of the Photo Rag. I tried bumping up paper thickness to 6 in the driver but it didn't help. I guess the next thing I'll try is platen setting.

Is it normal for a re-furb printer to need this much cleaning? When I got my used 4800 it had been sitting for some time, I put in new carts and ran a single power-cleaning cycle and an auto-align and it's been fine ever since. It just seems like a lot to go through for a printer that's supposedly been restored to new condition....

You have a really nice site and I'd like to thank you for the work you put into it. I've learned a lot from it just while waiting for the printer to be delivered!

Thanx,

Bill
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[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:blue']"The doctor told how he was once fishing in the Wind River area of Wyoming and he looked up and far above on the side of the canyon two dogs sat on a rock peeking at him from the brush that surrounded the rock. Only they weren't dogs, they were coyotes. They were curious about what he might be doing standing in a river waving a stick." [span style='color:black']Jim Harrison, Farmer[/span][/span][/span]

picnic

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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 06:31:34 pm »

Quote
Eric,

I'm using the paper manufacturer's profiles for MK. The Inkpress is Inkpressppm44r3800, driver set for Enhanced Matte, the Hahnemuhle is HFA3800PhotoRagMK, driver set for Velvet Fine Art, for the VFA I'm using the Epson profile, Pro38VFAP and the VFA driver setting.

Print quality has gotten better after the last round of cleanings but I'm still getting blotches on the trailing corners of the Photo Rag. I tried bumping up paper thickness to 6 in the driver but it didn't help. I guess the next thing I'll try is platen setting.

Is it normal for a re-furb printer to need this much cleaning? When I got my used 4800 it had been sitting for some time, I put in new carts and ran a single power-cleaning cycle and an auto-align and it's been fine ever since. It just seems like a lot to go through for a printer that's supposedly been restored to new condition....

You have a really nice site and I'd like to thank you for the work you put into it. I've learned a lot from it just while waiting for the printer to be delivered!

Thanx,

Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mine is just a bit over a year old, never had any clogs and mine sits for pretty long periods in between a good bit of activity.  I did find the Hahnemuhle PR profile not great--but 'okay' when I was sampling papers when I got the printer--certainly I wouldn't have thought it as bad as you are getting.  They may have a new one for the 3800 also--haven't looked recently.  I print mostly on FAM--Velvet, Hawks Mt. condor.  Yours sounds as though it has a problem.

Diane
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madmanchan

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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 11:45:14 am »

It sounds to me as if the printer's print head wasn't capped properly prior to transport, or it somehow became uncapped along the way.

Unfortunately I have seen this happen (personally) with Epson 3800 units that I've looked at recently. These were refurb units from Epson and both units arrived with substantially less packing & padding (and less blue tape) than the original new units that I've seen. In both cases with the refurb, the print heads were severely clogged straight out of the box and required a power clean to get right.

You may want to call Epson on this one.
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Eric Chan

AaronPhotog

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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 01:34:39 pm »

Yes, I had a "replacement" refurbished unit like that too.  At first it wouldn't print anything at all.  After two power cleanings, and more maintenance cycles, it finally printed, but coughed and wheezed the whole time.  I sent it back.  And what Eric says about their packing is also true.  The first replacement they sent me arrived smashed in the front.  That, of course, also went back.  The one that coughed and wheezed had parts dislodged, but I could get them back in place.  I eventually kept my original printer and told them to stop sending me broken ones.

My original printer appears to overink in the normal configuration.  I suspect that it left the factory that way, and from other posts besides yours, it's probably not the only one.  Epson's advertising claims, if you read them carefully, do not say that they calibrate the individual units, or even that they calibrate, and you never got a certificate of calibration did you?  Neither did anyone else.  I tried to use Epson ColorBase to linearize it, but the printer's too far off for that to work.

I developed a work-around using the Epson driver settings and PrintFixPro (now Spyder3Print).  I have to make my own profiles using those settings.  Canned profiles flat-out don't work, but the combination of settings and profiles work great, now.  Like you, I had to generate stacks of junk paper to figure out the problem and then, again, to solve it.

If you contact Epson, and if they agree to replace it, ask them to have the refurbished replacement unit tested and calibrated by an Epson technician before shipping, and to pack it like a new one, and especially to tape the front loader in place so it won't pop out and cause other damage to the front of the printer, and to make sure the printer head is taped in place and properly protected.

Good luck,
Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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billg71

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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 05:15:13 pm »

Eric and Aaron, thanks for the suggestions. I intend to give Epson TS a call tomorrow and see if they want to swap out the printer. If they do I'll ask for a calibrated re-furb and see what comes. If all else fails, I have an authorized Epson repair center about 10 miles away and I'm familiar with the staff. I could probably just haul it down there and get it up to snuff but I just don't think I should have to with a supposedly "good as new" printer.

As far as calibration goes, they do advertise it on their website as well as make a pretty big deal about PreciseColor Manufacturing, consistency between individual units, etc. all in the same sentence:
 
"Epson PreciseColorâ„¢ Manufacturing
Epson PreciseColor Manufacturing brings a new level of consistency to the printing process. Through this enhanced manufacturing process that includes colorimetric calibration, Epson ensures that individual printers of the same model produce prints that are indistinguishable from each other."


Here's the link: PreciseColor Manufacturing - Epson America, Inc

Which is why I bought the printer in the first place, as a companion to the 4800 that would primarily be used for matte papers but would also let me run small sheets of gloss paper without costing a small fortune in ink changeover. Using the same inks along with the advertised consistency between units would make matching prints a lot easier.

Oh well, it was a good plan anyway.....  

I'll let you guys know what I find out tomorrow.

Thanks for your help,

Bill
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 05:17:10 pm by billg71 »
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[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:blue']"The doctor told how he was once fishing in the Wind River area of Wyoming and he looked up and far above on the side of the canyon two dogs sat on a rock peeking at him from the brush that surrounded the rock. Only they weren't dogs, they were coyotes. They were curious about what he might be doing standing in a river waving a stick." [span style='color:black']Jim Harrison, Farmer[/span][/span][/span]

titusbear

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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2008, 05:38:58 pm »

As far as calibration goes, they do advertise it on their website as well as make a pretty big deal about PreciseColor Manufacturing, consistency between individual units, etc. all in the same sentence:
 
"Epson PreciseColorâ„¢ Manufacturing
Epson PreciseColor Manufacturing brings a new level of consistency to the printing process. Through this enhanced manufacturing process that includes colorimetric calibration, Epson ensures that individual printers of the same model produce prints that are indistinguishable from each other."



calibration to the same model - apples to apples / 3800 to 3800 / 4800 to 4800...
models listed as having this feature range from 3800 to 11880's... but I doubt - given the significant difference in 'build' /'tolerances' / et.al. between the 3800 and models 4880 and above - you'll ever get a 3800 looking like an 11880.  
so - ask your local repair depot if the can provide a 'calibrated ' print from a 3800 and one from a 4800 - and keep them by the respective machines for reference.
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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2008, 07:50:29 pm »

Read it again, carefully.  It reads like advertising hype, which it is.  Maybe they calibrate one unit in a production run, or something like that, but if their "enhanced manufacturing process" (which they don't explain) ensures uniformity from unit to unit, then they are all bad!!!??  

If you want assurance of uniformity, you should receive a calibration certificate specific to serial number, dated, and signed, with the tolerances and test results.  Then, there should be some way to recalibrate it when it drifts out of calibration.  That's the way it is done with any other kind of calibrated tool or measuring device.  I told Epson this, and they agreed and wrote it down as a suggestion.  I told them about Epson's own ColorBase program, only available from the European Epson web sites, or the UK web site.  Guess what... They hadn't heard of it.

An Epson service technician can indeed calibrate the machine to the hardware level inside the printer.  Or, if it works for you, there is the ColorBase software I mentioned above that you can run for each of the paper types you use (see Eric Chan's website), but you need an Eye-one spectrometer.  Unfortunately, we have no Epson tech reps in Hawaii, and the ColorBase program reported that the mismatch was too severe for it to properly calibrate my unit, so I had to resort to other methods.

My 3800 was producing muddy color out of the box, as was the one working replacement.  The Advanced Black and White mode worked fine, and is very linear, but the color was a horrible mess.  It looked like I was double profiling everything, but I wasn't.

As for a method of getting results that match the prints from two machines, you can get very close with a method that Barry Haynes, Wendy Crumpler, and Sean Duggan have in chapter 16 of their book, "Photoshop Artistry for Photographers Using Photoshop CS2 and Beyond."  It's a great book that I highly recommend.

In essence, you make a copy image look like the print you made using adjustment layers, then you adjust it again to match the original screen image, then you shut off the original adjustment layers and print from that, thus compensating for the mismatch.  You wind up with a recorded action, then, that you play when you want to match the output of the other machine.  It's sort of a poor man's profile editor without a spectrometer.

Aloha,
Aaron
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 07:51:28 pm by AaronPhotog »
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2008, 12:53:54 pm »

Given that the same printer does fine on glossy paper, I'm not sure I understand how a damaged head could cause what Bill is seeing on matte papers.

My experience with a 2400 is that the "ICM - No Color Adjustment" mode puts down way too much ink on matte papers, making it all but impossible to create a decent profile that doesn't have murky shadow tones. I create all of my custom profiles using "Color Controls - Adobe RGB" instead, and get much better results than I've seen with any canned profiles for matte papers.
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billg71

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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2008, 05:35:37 pm »

OK, spent an hour or so on the phone with Epson today, tried various papers and settings and there's a new(not re-furb) replacement 3800 on the way. Consensus seems to be something up with the logic card or some other electronic thingie.

The tech was nice, I explained that I had been printing for a while with the 4800 and 2200 and knew what a profile was, we went through several prints and various settings, he put me on hold for quite a while and went off to ask someone else something(I think he was new at this) and finally decided we really couldn't do anything with the settings so he would ship out a new printer.

It'll be here Wednesday or Thursday, I'll update when I get it up and running. Hopefully, no problems.

Thanx to all of you for the time you took to respond. It helps to know this isn't the first time Epson's shipped a dud re-furb and I'm thankful for all the advice.

Bill
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[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:blue']"The doctor told how he was once fishing in the Wind River area of Wyoming and he looked up and far above on the side of the canyon two dogs sat on a rock peeking at him from the brush that surrounded the rock. Only they weren't dogs, they were coyotes. They were curious about what he might be doing standing in a river waving a stick." [span style='color:black']Jim Harrison, Farmer[/span][/span][/span]

picnic

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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2008, 06:12:40 pm »

Quote
OK, spent an hour or so on the phone with Epson today, tried various papers and settings and there's a new(not re-furb) replacement 3800 on the way. Consensus seems to be something up with the logic card or some other electronic thingie.

all the advice.

Bill
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Hope yours is as good as mine.  No problems in over a year, terrific prints on both matte (I do softproof those) and semigloss--and on the new baryta papers too.  Love my 3800.

Diane
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billg71

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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 10:33:02 pm »

Well, I guess Epson shipped the printer overnight since it arrived around 11:00 this AM while I was getting ready to leave. Unpacked it(which was rather more of a chore than unpacking the refurb unit), set it up and let it run a nozzle check and auto align, and took the time to make three prints on Smooth Pearl, Enhanced Matte and Photo Rag Satin.

The tone, color depth and rendition and the level of detail on the three papers are so close it's almost scary! Of course, there's the difference in the papers but overall the consistency is great, especially considering I'm using manufacturer's profiles.

Anyway, just an update to fill you in and thank all of you again for the advice.

Bill
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 10:33:49 pm by billg71 »
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[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:blue']"The doctor told how he was once fishing in the Wind River area of Wyoming and he looked up and far above on the side of the canyon two dogs sat on a rock peeking at him from the brush that surrounded the rock. Only they weren't dogs, they were coyotes. They were curious about what he might be doing standing in a river waving a stick." [span style='color:black']Jim Harrison, Farmer[/span][/span][/span]

AaronPhotog

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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 02:33:43 am »

That's wonderful news!  Glad you got a new unit.  Enjoy it, as it really is a great printer.
Aloha,
Aaron
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