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Author Topic: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems  (Read 105753 times)

carl dw

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #200 on: February 25, 2008, 12:13:06 pm »

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Carl,

When people have teething problems with an 8000 dollar camera they naturally ask questions about whether they should look elsewhere and it becomes a slippery slope once the discussion meanders into related issues such as the qualities of the options. But you are correct, this thread has slid down the slope a bit more than it should have. But if only all of life's problems were so.

Now as for the camera, let me put it this way: I have now made about 2000 captures with this camera. I just returned from a wonderful 9 day field shoot in Yellowstone National Park and the Tetons (with "Travel Images" led by John Baker). It was really cold outside and the camera performed flawlessly. Focusing is fine and mine does not appear to have an alignment problem. The battery performance was astounding. A colleague with a 1Ds2 (Ni-cad battery) was having frozen battery problems while mine (L-I battery) just kept performing with tons of capacity to spare - which I can read to the accuracy of 1 percentage point on this camera - a new feature. My fingers froze (even wearing gloves) long before this battery ever will. The camera's useability is simply tremendously improved over the previous models. Everything is so much more accessible and easy to adjust. I am persuaded that the image quality is superb. For example, I've used it outdoors at night during a snowstorm at high ISO here in Toronto with low shutter speed and IS lenses and I think the results are fine Toronto Winter With My !ds3 . I haven't had a chance to seriously review the Yellowstone shoot yet, but based on testing I've done with a range of other more usual subject matter here in Toronto, I think the image quality is fine.

Now whether you should buy this camera or not, at this point in time I would say is hard to advise about. There are a number of questions which only you can answer to your own satisfaction, so the only help I can legitimately offer is to suggest what those questions are about: (1) How many MP of resolution do you need for the output you will be producing, remembering that you can get commercially acceptable inkjet print quality for large prints at output PPI in the minimum range of 180-240 PPI. For many people 12 MP is more than enough, and there is a growing number of good choices in this size range. I like the 21 MP idea because it gives me much leeway to crop and still print big, but not everyone would find that important. (2) What are you using now and how urgent is it to up-grade? (3) What's your investment in Canon lenses and how much budget space do you have to contemplate a system change, considering that if you were to sell Canon and move to Nikon you will get about 50 cents on the dollar for the lenses. (4) If you want full-frame at the "bleeding edge", you have a choice between the 1Ds3, the Nikon D3 (still in even shorter supply than the Canon), and perhaps later in the year, a speculative Sony 24 MP camera, and a Nikon D3 successor speculated at 24 MP. Who knows when these last 2 cameras will appear, what they will cost and how they will perform compared with the Canon, but if you have time to wait and are prepared to switch systems,  why not wait and have an expanded range from which to select once enough comparative performance data emerges. The Nikon D3, from what I've seen, seems to be a fabulous product, but 12MP.

As for Canon's quality control issues, this alignment problem seems to be on the course of resolution. The evidence suggests that they are repairing them and returning them to their owners in fine condition. Perhaps they will have now tackled the problem at source, so for future purchasers this will be an irrelevant "early adaptor" issue with no longe-term consequences. It would be good if Canon came out of its shell and told people the status of the problem, but others have given-up trying to tell Canon things that are in their own interest, so I have no illusions about any announcements. Nonetheless, they aren't dummies and if they've solved the problem silently under the hood, in the final analysis that is what matters.

Hope this helps.

Mark
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Mark,

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond in such depth.

My only issue with the camera was the alignment problem and then subsequently the slow trickle of focus problems and dodgy sensors... but I am realistic about the value of on-line forums and I do appreciate that people tend to sway to them when they themselves have or foresee an issue. For me, the problem seems very widespread and that makes me question the whole assembly/quality-control process Canon have chosen to adopt for this particular model.

I spent a few days with a 1DsIII in my studio before returning it with the alignment issue - I agree, the usability is a major step forward from the MkII I'm working with at the moment.

With regard to image quality, i did a few tests which I repeated on both bodies as a comparison with controlled lighting in my studio. (Here's when I reach for my flack jacket!) I interpolated the MkII images up to the same size as the MkIII (just with Photoshop) did a little subtle sharpening on both...... and could see only the slightest perceptible visual difference at pixel resolution on a nice Lacie CRT. I think we are both experienced enough to realise this would make sweet-fanny-adams difference on a double page spread spewed out of a four+ colour press. I have to stress this was in a studio with over 15KJ of flash on tap, so maximum usable ISO or Nikons 25,000 ASA D3 don't keep me awake at night!

I could see no difference in the colour with regard to the increased bit depth (I used the same RAW calibration settings I produced for the MkII using a hybrid of the Thomas Fors script) I think the advantage would only be evident if you're the type to get the exposure badly wrong or simply like crunching the colour around in Photoshop.

When the water settles I will upgrade to a MkIII later this year for two reasons.

1. My MkII is 3 years old and at that age needs to be relegated to a back-up
2. I don't want to give all my profits to the tax man!

For the time being I've started to experiment with more exotic lenses and adapters to see the effect on both image quality and feel....


Cheers,

Carl
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Mark D Segal

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #201 on: February 25, 2008, 12:32:02 pm »

Carl,

Yes, a four-colour printing press would  be the clinch-leveler of quality differences between sensors. There is only a 14 percent difference in resolution between a Mk2 and a Mk3, so I can readily see why it would be hard to detect for many kinds of images where liberal cropping is not being undertaken. My output world is inkjet prints, where quality differences in terms of tonal gradations and detail would be more visible. I think this is one of those areas where one really needs to print the comparisons and look at them closely to see the differences - using imaging situations which create stress between the previous technology and the current one, to see just how much that extra resolution and bit depth would make a tangible difference under a variety of capture conditions. I up-graded from an 11MP Canon 1Ds, giving me a 38% increase of resolution and the jump from a DIGIC 1 to a DIGIC III processor, so in my case the I.Q. gap may be more noticeable - I have yet to test this, because the weather here has been inimical to working with my favorite test site for so long a time now. I fully intend to do this, however, as it may be interesting to more than me.

Reading the forums, it seems to me that sensor and focus problems have been very few with this model, the alignment issue being the majority concern - and even then we don't know how many of their total production so far have experienced this flaw. It is inevitable save for the most rigorous testing - and even then - that several cameras out of thousands in a production line will turn-up defects that escape the factory processes. I don't think that represents a major risk factor as the camera is under warrenty - it is at most an annoying nuissance which Canon should do their utmost to prevent or repair quickly in the interest of themselves and their clients.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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narikin

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #202 on: February 27, 2008, 04:22:05 pm »

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could see only the slightest perceptible visual difference at pixel resolution on a nice Lacie CRT. I think we are both experienced enough to realise this would make sweet-fanny-adams difference on a double page spread spewed out of a four+ colour press.

err, dont wish to be rude, but this is not remotely the right way to compare high end digital cameras files

1: a CRT is not at all sharp compared to a digital flat panel
2: the idea that the arbiter of it all is a 4 color litho dps is plainly not a runner.

litho presses run on incredibly small gamut CMYK inks, through a very rough 'screen'. photographic prints from e.g. an Epson are far finer and have a dramatically bigger gamut.
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carl dw

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #203 on: February 28, 2008, 09:56:31 am »

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err, dont wish to be rude, but this is not remotely the right way to compare high end digital cameras files

1: a CRT is not at all sharp compared to a digital flat panel
2: the idea that the arbiter of it all is a 4 color litho dps is plainly not a runner.

litho presses run on incredibly small gamut CMYK inks, through a very rough 'screen'. photographic prints from e.g. an Epson are far finer and have a dramatically bigger gamut.
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In my workflow where I use a CRT and have used a number of CRT's from Lacie consecutively over the last nine years, it is relevant. The only flat panel screen I've used and has compared favorably to my Lacie CRT is an Eizo CG221 22".... Yes, an AdobeRGB(1998)  gamut and very sharp - but until my Lacie gives up the ghost I'm not inclined to throw almost £3000 at a monitor for no reason. With the exception of the Eizo, I think alot of people have been seduced by the idea of flat screens and then convinced themselves they are better than high-end CRT's... bit of emperors new clothes!!

My camera comparison is based on real-world output in my real-world workflow - as opposed to pixel peaking and comparing irrelevant graphs and specifications.

My work is printed predominantly on a litho press, so isn't that where my comparison should be?

I don't think you are being rude, you simply didn't understand my point.

On the point of mis-alignment (where we should really be) I spoke to a Canon 'Tech' at the UK Focus exhibition on Tuesday. Apparently Canon were aware of the issue back in December...
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Mike Chini

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #204 on: February 28, 2008, 11:39:17 am »

Just remember that color gamuts are improving across all devices (new LED backlit displays, 16-bit printer drivers etc) so what may not be apparent today, may be in a year or two.  I noticed lots of differences in my images when I switched to an LCD (from a LaCie CRT - loved that monitor) and again when I plugged my computer into my hdtv (plasma) which has a much wider gamut (it would seem).
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dabreeze

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #205 on: March 11, 2008, 11:24:39 am »

Well, today my 1Ds3 is expected via overnight FedEx from Canon Irvine. Yesterday I spoke directly with Chris Canada of Canon Professional Services and he assured me that while the problem is not 'widespread,' they are aware of it and that the camera had been repaired correctly. I'll report back on that when it arrives. I'm crossing my fingers as repair reports of this defect at Irvine haven't been particularly good. BTW: mine had a .8% tilt, serial #614---.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 11:25:10 am by dabreeze »
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Steve Holmes

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« Reply #206 on: March 11, 2008, 01:11:18 pm »

I just received mine back from Canon yesterday, and I'm impressed with the service. They sent me a shipping label and expedited the return shipping. I sent it on Wednesday and received it Monday, which is faster than I expected. It seems to be in perfect alignment now. While it was annoying to have to send it in, it was resolved fairly quickly.
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CatOne

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« Reply #207 on: March 11, 2008, 01:41:46 pm »

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There is only a 14 percent difference in resolution between a Mk2 and a Mk3, so I can readily see why it would be hard to detect for many kinds of images where liberal cropping is not being undertaken.
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Not to nitpick, but...

1Ds Mark II = 16.7 megapixels
1Ds Mark III = 21.1 megapixels

A little math seems to indicate that's a 26.3% increase in pixels... what am I missing here?  
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #208 on: March 11, 2008, 02:28:16 pm »

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Not to nitpick, but...

1Ds Mark II = 16.7 megapixels
1Ds Mark III = 21.1 megapixels

A little math seems to indicate that's a 26.3% increase in pixels... what am I missing here?   
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What you are missing is a bit of geometry. There may be approximately a 26.3% increase of total pixels, but not of resolution, when resolution is measured as pixels per inch or more conveniently total pixels on one linear dimension (be it the long one or the short one, if we are comparing two sensors of the same linear dimensions). Remember the total pixel count is contained in an area (A) of rows and columns which has a height (h) and width (w), so A = h*w in square inches, let us say. Therefore, the formula for calculating the linear resolution in total pixels let us say on the long dimension is "(the square root of the number of megapixels multipled by the square root of the aspect ratio)*1000". Do this calculation twice - one for the 16.6 MP sensor (not 16.7) and the other for the 21.1 MP sensor, subtract the smaller result from the larger result, take this difference as a percentage of the smaller one and you will get the increase of resolution.

So here we go: the aspect ratio is 1.5 for both of these cameras, the square root of which is 1.225 (confining to 3 decimal places). The square rooots of 16.6 and 21.1 are  4.074 and 4.593 respectively. 1.225*4.593*1000=5625. 1.225*4.074*1000=4971, 5625-4971=654. 654/4971=13.2% increase of resolution between a 1Ds Mk2 and a 1Ds Mk3. I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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dabreeze

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #209 on: March 11, 2008, 05:24:42 pm »

i guess we can all use a little geometry now and then!!  

as for canon irvine's repair, it did arrive today and appears to be pretty close to horizontal. without putting up a sheet of grid paper, my informal testing puts it at either completely level or at most about .1% tilted. my gut is that it's off that small amount and i'll continue to try and confirm this, but for now, it's probably good enough.
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Peter McLennan

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« Reply #210 on: March 11, 2008, 09:03:33 pm »

You Canon boys are not alone with viewfinder/sensor alignment issues.  Although it's not in the same league as your cameras, my (RIP) D70 had a three degree misalignment.  Nikon service claimed that they fixed it, but no.  They did reduce it from 3 to 2 degrees.  My D200 is perfect.
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dottore

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« Reply #211 on: March 13, 2008, 03:34:52 am »

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What you are missing is a bit of geometry. There may be approximately a 26.3% increase of total pixels, but not of resolution, when resolution is measured as pixels per inch or more conveniently total pixels on one linear dimension (be it the long one or the short one, if we are comparing two sensors of the same linear dimensions). Remember the total pixel count is contained in an area (A) of rows and columns which has a height (h) and width (w), so A = h*w in square inches, let us say. Therefore, the formula for calculating the linear resolution in total pixels let us say on the long dimension is "(the square root of the number of megapixels multipled by the square root of the aspect ratio)*1000". Do this calculation twice - one for the 16.6 MP sensor (not 16.7) and the other for the 21.1 MP sensor, subtract the smaller result from the larger result, take this difference as a percentage of the smaller one and you will get the increase of resolution.

So here we go: the aspect ratio is 1.5 for both of these cameras, the square root of which is 1.225 (confining to 3 decimal places). The square rooots of 16.6 and 21.1 are  4.074 and 4.593 respectively. 1.225*4.593*1000=5625. 1.225*4.074*1000=4971, 5625-4971=654. 654/4971=13.2% increase of resolution between a 1Ds Mk2 and a 1Ds Mk3. I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
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Much too long winded.  Aspect ratio has nothing to do with it, you muliplied and then divided by it.

sqr(21.1/16.6) - 1 = 0.127 = 12.7%

The diff is your rounding error.  I hope that clarifies the matter for you.


Your
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dottore

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« Reply #212 on: March 13, 2008, 03:49:00 am »

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You Canon boys are not alone with viewfinder/sensor alignment issues.  Although it's not in the same league as your cameras, my (RIP) D70 had a three degree misalignment.  Nikon service claimed that they fixed it, but no.  They did reduce it from 3 to 2 degrees.  My D200 is perfect.
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That's what I said before.  It would be tempting to just clobber Canon, alas they all make (some) cameras in exactly the same manner.  

Indeed, you don't need to spend 8 kilobucks to have beautifully sloping horizons.  The same thing occurs commonly in Rebels XTi, which I checked on my sample (former, since I got rid of it) showing about 0.75 degree slant (quite annoying) and several store cameras. My 20D has only a very very small tilt which I didn't notice before.  These Rebels and the Mark 3s are assembled using the same technology, so to fix it they probably need to use shims and a trial and error procedure which requires some skill.  

I also said before, the fact they can not reliably fix it proves my earlier assumptions that this is not truly adjustable.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #213 on: March 13, 2008, 08:20:15 am »

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Much too long winded.  Aspect ratio has nothing to do with it, you muliplied and then divided by it.

sqr(21.1/16.6) - 1 = 0.127 = 12.7%

The diff is your rounding error.  I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
Your
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I know there is a small rounding error on the aspect ratio - no big deal - the principle of measuring the resolution using square roots is the basic point I was making. What you show is correct; however, the value-added of considering the aspect ratio in the calculation is that it translates the total MP data into a linear metric which then lends itself to more easily seeing PPI, which is the usual way of defining resolution, hence easier for people to relate to. How's that for a long-winded response  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #214 on: March 13, 2008, 08:32:43 am »

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That's what I said before.  It would be tempting to just clobber Canon, alas they all make (some) cameras in exactly the same manner. 

Indeed, you don't need to spend 8 kilobucks to have beautifully sloping horizons.  The same thing occurs commonly in Rebels XTi, which I checked on my sample (former, since I got rid of it) showing about 0.75 degree slant (quite annoying) and several store cameras. My 20D has only a very very small tilt which I didn't notice before.  These Rebels and the Mark 3s are assembled using the same technology, so to fix it they probably need to use shims and a trial and error procedure which requires some skill. 

I also said before, the fact they can not reliably fix it proves my earlier assumptions that this is not truly adjustable.
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Are you a technical expert on Canon assembly processes, or is this an inference based on some random experience? And what makes you think they can't reliably fix this problem? There is already a track record of successful re-alignments.

I am no expert on how to manufacture cameras either, but I think it more sensible to believe that a company like Canon is fully capable of manufacturing cameras in a manner to avoid this problem reliably, and whatever errors, oversights or shortcuts are now causing this problem are fixable - if not already done. I suspect the real problems are rooted in corporate culture and commercial considerations - not technical ability per se; but in this day and age of the internet, with forums such as this one, bad news circulates real fast and the reputational risk and possible consequences of doing nothing are high. So sooner or later these issues get addressed, at some inconvenience to the early adopters.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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David Anderson

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #215 on: March 13, 2008, 06:44:50 pm »

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Are you a technical expert on Canon assembly processes, or is this an inference based on some random experience? And what makes you think they can't reliably fix this problem? There is already a track record of successful re-alignments.

I am no expert on how to manufacture cameras either, but I think it more sensible to believe that a company like Canon is fully capable of manufacturing cameras in a manner to avoid this problem reliably, and whatever errors, oversights or shortcuts are now causing this problem are fixable - if not already done. I suspect the real problems are rooted in corporate culture and commercial considerations - not technical ability per se; but in this day and age of the internet, with forums such as this one, bad news circulates real fast and the reputational risk and possible consequences of doing nothing are high. So sooner or later these issues get addressed, at some inconvenience to the early adopters.
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I have to agree with Mark here, I've gone to Canon with my fair share of problems, both their fault and (more often) mine, and they have been 100% in fixing them.

They also DON'T have the annoying habit of pretending there's no problem or that the problem is entirely with the photographer unlike some companies I've done business with.
(Profoto, Hasselblad and Bowens are masters of this in Australia)

In fact, service from these guys is so good it makes a joke iMHO out of everyones else in the industry here.
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Dansk

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« Reply #216 on: March 13, 2008, 11:09:02 pm »

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In fact, service from these guys is so good it makes a joke iMHO out of everyones else in the industry here.

I'd agree with that. I'm also looking forward to the side by side testing of the 3 vs the 1 and 2 not to hijack further
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 11:09:30 pm by Dansk »
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Dinarius

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« Reply #217 on: March 14, 2008, 07:59:23 am »

My replacement 1DsMk3 arrived this morning. Note "replacement" not repair.

Haven't had a chance to try it yet. Here's hoping.

D.
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dottore

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« Reply #218 on: March 17, 2008, 04:07:26 am »

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Are you a technical expert on Canon assembly processes, or is this an inference based on some random experience? And what makes you think they can't reliably fix this problem? There is already a track record of successful re-alignments.

I am no expert on how to manufacture cameras either, but I think it more sensible to believe that a company like Canon is fully capable of manufacturing cameras in a manner to avoid this problem reliably, and whatever errors, oversights or shortcuts are now causing this problem are fixable - if not already done. I suspect the real problems are rooted in corporate culture and commercial considerations - not technical ability per se; but in this day and age of the internet, with forums such as this one, bad news circulates real fast and the reputational risk and possible consequences of doing nothing are high. So sooner or later these issues get addressed, at some inconvenience to the early adopters.
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I'm certainly not an expert on Canon camera assembly, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express... and that's the point - a Canon person may be tempted to explain it better.  In this day and age of Internet company representatives should indeed talk to the customers also in forums like this one, and use the same tools to defend their reputation.  And believe it or not, some companies do that, even companies bigger than Canon (such as Intel for example).  

So of course you are right that it's corporate culture and not technical ability per se - I'm sure the engineers are able to eventually solve this issue -- maybe in the next model.  Btw. the robotic assembly of today's point and shoot cameras with their tiny lens elements and other parts is really something to admire and getting quickly better.   Of course, these cameras in general can not be repaired by humans after assembly, but since they are cheap, they can be replaced.  Not so with Ds MarkIII...
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #219 on: March 17, 2008, 07:37:04 am »

Hi Dottore - yes, well I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express too, so that makes both of us geniae.     In whatever way they are assembling the 1Ds3, the re-assuring element is that people who've had this problem are getting them back repaired or replaced satisfactorily - that is what most of the evidence so far indicates, so I guess I'm a bit more optimistic about the high-end of the product line than you seem to be. I'm sure Canon has learned a lot from recent episodes with both the 1D3 and the 1Ds3, but it seems unlike some other companies, they simply don't have the corporate culture of candour with their customers. In fact one Canon rep told me over the phone that they DO NOT come to any conclusions about performance issues or design their support policies around what is said on web forums - (but it's also clear that they do read them). Perhaps that attitude will be be cured eventually with increasing competition in this market niche.
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