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ed_lumen

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« on: January 08, 2008, 08:52:52 am »

dear colleagues,

after many years of photographing 5/7 + 8/10'' color-negativs (drum-scanned on my howtek4500) with the wonderful canham mqc57 lastly and before arca8x10, toyo-field810 and master-technica4x5 it seems time for the next change. not an easy one, as i need to printout to sizes of 1,5m²+ at 200dpi minimum. i have looked through much of your talks the last nights and still seek guidance ;-) - if anybody working about traditional landscape/architecural imagery likes to share his findings that could help me a lot!

camera: do i still need tilt? if yes, arca Rm3d and silvestri bicam with or without 1 of their tilt-adapters seem good. of these, again only the arca seems to offer 2way-shifting, which i sometimes need. yes: i would be pleased, if that neccesary change of system would bring with it some loss of weight and size to carry! all the other cams seem to lack something important. horseman: bad handling. cambo: too big (the lens holders etc), too ugly ;-) alpa: only 1way-shift, xy: overkill. all the rest: no shifting. which do i forget?

back: are the biggest really big enough for what i was used to obtain? there are only 2: phase45+ and sinar 75 LV, right? what a pity that the betterlights take too much time...  can i risk of working with a back that has no app like the brumbaer to help out of its lacks? do i have any choice here? and: should i wait some more months for something new?

lenses: with 5/7'' i have 72, 115, 240, 300, 450mm. with angles like the ones of a 110, 220, 330, 440 (just to give an idea out of photographing experience) i would be just fine - i hate the perspective of super-wides. what would you propose - always given the need for these large prints? and: what about alternatives to rodenstock+schneider like hasselblad (eg. 50-110) or mamiya-lenses?

finally: any recommendations where to buy all this best in germany? thanks so much, folks!!!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:55:25 am by ed_lumen »
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MichaelEzra

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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 09:29:01 am »

Hi Ed, I have used Mamiya ZD camera to shoot landscapes with multiexposure panoramic stitching technique.  Images from 20+ shots are fatastically sharp and clean. the weight of the camera is negligible. What mostly contributes to the weight in my system is carbon fiber tripod and spherical bracket, still not much.
ZD buffer (10-images) did not present any problems. Autopano Pro (www.autopano.net) easily hadles stitching such large files (3Gb+).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 09:30:32 am by MichaelEzra »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 11:29:50 am »

There are 4 back manufacturers not including Mamiya. 2 of them have 33MP Dalsa Sensor backs (Sinar & Leaf) the Other 2 Kodak 39Mp backs (Hasselblad & Phase). These are all with appr. 48x36sized sensors.

For all backs there are solutions that could be of use to you.

Now I don't do landscape of architecture (at least not to make a living), I have worked with a number of different MFDB systems. They all have their weaknesses and strengths and depending on what you are doing and the way you do it there might be a big difference between the systems. Try to test each one and preferably for a bit longer than just one day.  It might be of lesser importance to you but I sometimes need to process a pretty big bunch of images for which I get only a limited amount of time of post processing paid. Different ways of processing files between vendors can make a huge impact. It is not only the hardware maybe the software is even more important.

For long exposures over a minute there is only 1 option, Phase. All the others typically max out at 30sec's. Hasselblad will be 60sec's after Phocus if the promise becomes reality.

Sinar & Hasselblad carry backs that use adapterplates so you can use your back on different platforms.

Now since DoF seems to be much thinner than we all judged acceptable when using film my first instinct for landscape (or architecture) would be that you definitely need tilt (if front to back sharpness is important).

I have been looking at the Silvestri Flexicam for that but sofar had different priorities.
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mtomalty

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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 01:29:29 pm »

Hi Ed

Dustbak highlights a number of key features/issues relating to different brands.

If you could provide a link to a sampling of the type of landscape work you are
doing it might help to supply more pertinent information.

I come from a background of 4x5 landscape shooting (still do 4x5 in conjunction with
Canon digital) where a lot of my images defaulted to fairly extreme near/far
requirements,i.e. a main feature a few feet from the camera with distant horizon also
appearing in the image usaually shot with 75mm,80mm,or 90mm on 4x5

Over the past few years I've begged,borrowed,and rented DB's from most of the main
brands,with the exception of Sinar,in an effort to come to terms with the strengths and
shortcomings presented when moving from a large format film to a DB workflow as it
pertains SPECIFICALLY to landscape content.

As stated above,a lot of my work requires a camera with,at least,front tilt.
The most compact and usefull tool I found that met this need was the Hasselblad
ArcBody (I had 45mm and 75mm)

This compact package would permit me to shoot in a very similar fashion to how I was
accustomed to working in 4x5-primary subject in foreground with a few degrees of tilt
resulting in apparent sharpness from 2 feet to infinity.  I'm a happy camper
The downside is that,since one has to compose,frame,etc through a detachable finder
there results a lot of attaching/detaching of the back and,given that I am often working in
swamps,water,rain,snow with wet and frozen hands I know my number will come up,probably sooner than later,and i'd risk dumping a $30K DB

The other downside for me with the Arc is the 3 lens system limit.
Since the Arc uses the Blad V mount one could pair the Arc with a 503CW or something similar
and take advantage of the extensive lens lineup available

Unfortunately,the V system just didn't feel right for me-quality aside
I had,at the time of testing a full contax 645 and felt the V method was,ergomically a few
steps back down the useability ladder for the way I like to work.  Other like the V feel
and if you were one of those people then for my money (which I have yet to spend)
the ArcBody with a 503 would do about everything a landscape generalist would need.

Using the Arcbody and its 3 LF Rodenstock lenses generally results in a Raw file that
is contaminated with a color cast (usually magenta/green) that needs to be addressed in
post with each brands correction method.
Not a big deal but still one more obstacle to be dealt with in your $30K decision.

The same will hold true,I believe,for almost any Large format camera/lens combo
you ultimately decide upon.  Colorcast is most prevalent at the wider end of the lens lineup
but is not absent from medium and longer focal lengths.

I have also logged a fair amount of time using DB (Leaf,Phase,and Hasselblad) on
medium format slr systems like the Hasselblad H2D/H3D,Mamiya 645,and the Contax 645.

All yield excellent results (each has their own small warts here and there) until it comes
to fairly extreme near/far depth of field requirements and if,like me,this is a need for you
then no combination of camera/digital back and non tilting lens will get the job done
in one shot.
There is software available to combine frames with different focus points but that solution
does not appeal to me  (yet!!).

As well,most lenses,irrespective of brand have a fairly noticeable sharpness dropoff after
about f 11 1/2 or f 16 so even through some do stop down to f32 you are 'gaining' depth
but losing sharpness.

If extreme depth isn't a major part of your repetoire then I think you'd be very satisfied
with the results from any of the major medium format dslr's and a 33 or 39 Mp back

Good luck with your decision
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tom_l

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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 02:07:34 pm »

Hi,
the new Arca and the Flexicam are interesting new cameras on the market. Someone mentioned a new, smaller Alpa for this year. A logical step for Cambo would be to react and update their toy with 1 or 2 features. It's Photokina year and we may discover some stuff i think. Let's not forget the new Hy6 and the still unknown Phase/Mamiya body.
Definitely not the best moment to recommand a camera at this moment i think, if you can, wait another 3-4 month or even for Photokina to discover everything in Cologne. I decided to go the Hassy 503  V route with a flexbody (soon to be replaced by the Flexicam).


tom
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rainer_v

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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 03:03:01 pm »

hi ralf,

in general i  would recommend you the same or a similar setup than i use myself.
although i know that its possible to make hi-end work with each of the four brands ( haseelblad/imacon, phase, leaf, sinar ) you should consider the strong/weak aspects esp. if it comes to architecture/landscape photography using shift lenses for this.

i prefer in general  the dalsa sensors as used in leaf and sinar backs for less color casts if used with wideangle shift  lenses, further they have less energy consumption and also i prefer the "look" this sensor is creating for my kind of work.
things might be completely different if shooting fashion/portrait work, but thats not what me and you are doing.
an advantage ( the onliest i.m.o. ) i can see in phase backs is the possibility to make exposures which take several minutes, but in practice with mf lenses and more so with the rodenstock HR lenses this is less useful than it might look at first view.
this lenses allow s.o. to work without centerfilter and in case of the HR lenses also at widest possible apertures. so an exposure time of 30 seconds at iso50 or 100 using the lens at f4,5without centerfilter is the same than with a 4x5" chrome a time of 180 seconds at f 8-11 with a 5. wideangle, using a 2 stop centerfilter.
further the long times with the phase backs require the same time again for taking the black reference and the same time again to shoot a white reference, if you dont want to work with pre-made reference files which is in practice often unaccurate and complicate.

for me the choice for architecture soting comes down between sinar and leaf.
between this two sinar seems to have several advantages.
1. the large internal buffer (6GB which can be expanded with cf cards).
2. sinar backs come with interchangeable mounts, i used that a lot because i used my backs in the last years with hasselblad, comtax, sinar-m and gottschalt plates and i exchange often the plates from contax 645 to sinarM to gottschalt..
3. the centerfold issue is not existing with sinar. it still can apear with leaf backs if you have the bad luck to get a back which shows it, even if you use the lcc tool which seems to work often ok.
4. the brumbaer software which is by far the fastest workflow i know if you have to work with motifs which need many  white reference shots , which i would strongly recommendedfor every motif if you use shift lenses.
the software also has an algorythm which restore highlights better than any of the official programs. in pratice you gain one or two stops in highlight aereas and can expose much more to the right without having fear to blow out clouds a.s.o.

the display in the leaf is bigger but not bright outside,- with sinar you can have good luck or bad luck with the display,- they differ a lot. some are with great contrast and brightness, some have lo contrast.

about the lenses:
i would select either schneider or rodenstock lenses. the digitar lenses from schneider find their counterpart in the rodenstock digital serial, prices are similar, quality too,-  but schneider has a 24mm which rodenstock does not have. image circles are big ( except the schneider 24xl which can only be moved 2-3m ), quality is good but the lenses want to be stopped down at least till f8 to be sharp. shifting more than 15mm will result in reduced sharpness at the edges, but its possible.

i.m.o. the best lenses are the rodenstock/sinar HR serial. they are tack sharp at all apertures but the wides ( 28mm + 35mm ) can only be shifted 12-13mm, which is more  in practice than it might sound.  the longer HR lenses have more room here, about 20-25mm although the specs dont tell this. dont know why.
.
further the rodenstock 28HR is pretty expensive, but really a great lens. for the larger image circle it can be stitched and reach than the same f.o.v. than the schneide 24xl.

the cameras are the most diffcult part to find i.m.o..... ( i dont know the silvestri.)

the new arca 3r sounds great but i am not sure if it is already available in all parts and also i am not sure how exact the tilt mechanism is to reset to 0 degrees and how good may work this in practice. dont believe in any promises, if the hings are not available now look for another system,- dont wait because most of the manufactor promises of availability are dreams.

myself i use a gottschalt camera with a sliding back with rotatable sensor, which never was made in serial so i am not sure of mr. gottschalt would make another one. yu can see the camera here in this "making of" shots...

http://tangential.de/tangential-de/_html-s...g-off/index.htm

the camera works ok but it was not an easy way till it was complete and it has had several break downs and faulty adjustments, which have had to be made even during the shootings. i really felt as a beta tester ( which was not my wish a all).
i am still with it because there is no alternative camera visible which allows me to work with a sliding back in a similar way.
several times i was tempted to go for an alpa, esp, the XY but its size didnt tempted me and that there is no sliding back available was THE deal breaker for me. often i work at "bad" locations and i cant imagine to get used in the mounting up and mounting down of the back and the exchanging the ground glass. working with optical viewers also is not what i want so here the gottschalt is great. the back remains always on the camera and can even be rotated without de- attaching it.
but as i said,- it was not easy. so i scratched 3 (!) ir sensor glasses till i found out that the dark slider was too thin and could touch the sensor under certain circumstances, and it took its time till i found out that it was this little tool which scratched my sensors.
i got a new one which seems to work now fine and is much more stable..... and had to exchange the glasses. this is what i mean to be a "beta" tester, but it seems so that there is nothing in the market which is really well thought for us architecture shooters. many expansive compromises..... so i was searching to get a system which is "perfect" for me.

good luck
rainer
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 03:09:15 pm by rainer_v »
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adammork

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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 04:34:33 pm »

Quote
Someone mentioned a new, smaller Alpa for this year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165927\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The new Alpa, called Alpa 12 MAX, will probably be a bit under the half weight of the XY....
Have sufficient shift for most use around 25 mm up, 18 mm down, 18 mm left and 18 right

It's designed to use the movements without moving the lens, only the back moves - perfect for stitching!

It will be around 20-22 cm high and 17-18 cm wide

It seems that I will have another new Alpa later this year.....    I have at the moment 3 Alpa's and have nothing but praises for this system - It's nothing short of fantastic to work with.

Alpa are planning, but not promising to show a prototype at the camera show in Birmingham late February, and start delivering doing summer.

Alpa is also coming with a 6 dgr. tilt-adapter, that fits all the Alpa's, that can be used on lenses from 80 mm and up.

Regarding lenses, as Rainer said, choose between the new digital lenses from ether schneider or rodenstock - what you choose is a personal matter.

The "older" Rodenstock's used on the Arcbody performs wonderful on film and very decent on a 22mp back, but they can not compete with the new digital lenses in terms of resolution and lack of CA on the big back's.

 I’m a Rodenstock man or was…. I have 12 Rodenstock's for my Arca’s 4x5 so it felt a natural to go that way – then I tested the 28HR and the 35HR against the Schneider's – I found that the Rodenstock's were a little sharper in the centre, but they performed a bit worse towards the edge than the Schneider's.

The Rodenstocks were also more yellow in the colour rendering than the Schneider’s, and not for my eyes, in a pleasant way – and they showed a bit more distortion as well – the tests were done on my XY,  – BUT as you know you have to test for your self – I could have had my hands on two bad samples of Rodenstock's.

The Schneider’s, In my findings, are overall a bit sharper, have larger image circle, and are smaller. but the drawback is, the Schneider's need to be stopped down to around f.11 to perform best,  you also have to use centre filters, at least on the 24xl, you can get by on the 35xl without, at least with a Leaf back because the custom gain adjuster can adjust for the light falloff, but I use the centre filter on the 35, but not on the 47.

But the differences in real life IMO between the two brands are really minor, and comes down to personal preference in the end, so again, the mantra is: test for you self.....

Very best,
Adam
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rainer_v

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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 05:06:54 pm »

hi adam...
happy new year for you.

do you have any info if alpa will finally also make a sliding back? i cant understand their resistance against this tool. i know........ 1/1000th mm and their speeches about that. but i never felt the tolerances on the gottschalt sliding back as a problem for sharpness over the sensor field,- and the alpas are much better made, so it really should not be more than a teoretical problem.

sound promising the new alpa if ...... please a sliding back.
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adammork

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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 05:17:40 pm »

Hi Rainer

Happy new year to you as well    hope you are doing well.

I have no info .... they once made a prototype with a build-in sliding adapter:

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...&detailpage=234

So if you can get your hand on one of those you would be flying...

Not as handy as the new camera is going to be.

/Adam
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rethmeier

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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 05:49:31 pm »

Nice posts Rainer and Adam!

Regarding those Alpa proto types,I've been told they were mainly sold to Chinese collectors.

The new Alpa Max is certainly something I would look at.
The XY is in my eyes a bit to large.

Cheers,

Willem.
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micek

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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2008, 06:08:26 pm »

I just wanted to add that the "bulkiness" of the Alpa XY is a matter of perception: if you are used to a 4x5" camera it is not that bulky, and since it has a particularly flat body it is remarkably easy to carry it in almost any bag.
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ericstaud

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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 11:29:03 pm »

Quote
Nice posts Rainer and Adam!

Regarding those Alpa proto types,I've been told they were mainly sold to Chinese collectors.

The new Alpa Max is certainly something I would look at.
The XY is in my eyes a bit to large.

Cheers,

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you remove the lens and back at the end of the day, the Alpa XY takes up the same amount of space as a 12" laptop computer.  For storage it's not a problem.  If you're shooting landscape and it's windy, or you're carry the camera over distance, then wait for the Alpa 12max.
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rethmeier

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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 12:12:18 am »

Totally agree with you Eric!

I think the 12 MAX is a welcome addition and is exactly was I'm after!

I also think that a lot of current XY users at the end would prefer the 12 MAX.

Cheers,
Willem.
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jing q

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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 12:20:20 am »

Quote
Hi,
the new Arca and the Flexicam are interesting new cameras on the market. Someone mentioned a new, smaller Alpa for this year. A logical step for Cambo would be to react and update their toy with 1 or 2 features. It's Photokina year and we may discover some stuff i think. Let's not forget the new Hy6 and the still unknown Phase/Mamiya body.
Definitely not the best moment to recommand a camera at this moment i think, if you can, wait another 3-4 month or even for Photokina to discover everything in Cologne. I decided to go the Hassy 503  V route with a flexbody (soon to be replaced by the Flexicam).
tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165927\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

a vote for Silvestri.
I am using their Bicam now and it's a wonderful piece of engineering, 10mm shift left and 15mm shift right and down, tilt and swings, 15 mm rise and 15mm fall.
the problem I'm having righht now is with the sliding back but it's not the Bicam's problem...
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rainer_v

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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 01:56:16 am »

its not the size that i dont work with an alpa,- which i would like to do very much. i think i would love their system and how  their stuff is made. also its a pleasure to chat with the alpa guys, they really know what about they speak...... but i miss a sliding back. they havent told me about the prototype adam showed here when i was some months ago in zürich, talking with them and thinking once more to go the alpa route. the miss of the sliding back was the deal breaker for me and so i decided to go on with the gottschalt and to knock on wood.

interesting what adam writes about his findings with the lenses. more or less the contrary than my findings- plus that i always was a schneider guy in my film days.
explanation probably may be that sample variation is to be really big from all manufactors this days, independent the price point. although i think this is unacceptable  we should hvae this in mind if testing/trying/buying things. means,- if you test something you like, buy exactly this sample, dont expect that another sample of the same product will deliver really the SAME quality.
maybe alpa is an exception here, but i dont know this personnally. but sure it will have a reason that everybody who owns one loves it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 02:32:41 am by rainer_v »
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ed_lumen

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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 05:59:14 am »

Quote
a vote for Silvestri.
I am using their Bicam now and it's a wonderful piece of engineering, 10mm shift left and 15mm shift right and down, tilt and swings, 15 mm rise and 15mm fall.
the problem I'm having righht now is with the sliding back but it's not the Bicam's problem...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166054\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

dear jing,

which of the 2 tilt-adaptors (flexi-bellow or f-b maxi) do you use? have you really found out you need it or did you decide based on your former lf-experiences? does the bicam without the below shift in 2 ways?

what exactly IS your problem with the sliding-back, you wrote about "shimming" but no dictionary could translate that for me poor german ;-) - and how do you face it. why didn't you just return it? what does your dealer and silvestri say? many years ago i had maybe the same kind of problem with a basic sinar 4/5: the screen was by construction 1,5mm away from where it should have been. it took me more than a year until they believed me, and that only after one of their guys came by and made a side by side test with his reference-camera and mine. they finally replaced my back (nobody ever replaced the travels, films, time, reputation! - sharp slides were only a matter of sheer luck then) and told me that something like that never ever had happened before. months later a colleague phoned me: he as well as half a dozen of other photographers without explanation suddenly had received new backs for their sinars after they had tried in vain for months to convince sinar they had problems with focusing. he got in touch with someone inside sinar and was told under cover, that I could have been the reason for that - so he phoned me. all of them had these bad backs. all of them were told, that something like that had never ever happened before... so this for swiss quality.

if you like: could you describe to me the function of the stitching-adapter if it is this you use. and: do you have to change extension rings on the back of the bicam, whenever you change a lens? thanks a lot!!
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free1000

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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 10:36:45 am »

Very happy with the Cambo and Schneider 24,35,47 and 72 lenses.

I'm sure all the 33 and 39 megapixel backs and the various camera platforms can do the job, they are all great.

I use the Leaf Aptus 75. Yes, I tested the slightly bigger chips on the Phase 45 but I didn't like the look of the images so much. But they are all really close at this level.  

There have been some problems with the Dalsa chips in the Leaf backs in terms of some lack of uniformity. This varies from back to back. I have a good one. Also I hear on the grapevine that Dalsa is close to getting these problems licked.

I have heard from people who have seen the Arca that its a really interesting and different option. So while I can see that Alpa etc. might be a more precise version of my Cambo (though I doubt it makes much of a difference in practice) I think that the Arca is quite different to the others and probably the only one I'd look at.

Over the years I've heard that Silvestri is fine if you get a good one, but if you have problems then they can be a bit time consuming to sort out.

My biggest tip is to place a fairly high importance on the support you will get post purchase. These products are very low volume, they are almost custom made. If you can't easily return an item, get it fixed, or get help you will be entering a world of pain. Luckily for me Cambo have been very helpful, turning around a lens repair in three days for me, and Leaf even sent a representative over to visit me from Brussels once... all the way over to my humble house in the middle of a wood in Oxfordshire.

Another tip. With the small size of these sensors, using tilt for focal plane control really isn't an issue. The 24,35 and 47 lenses are pretty much sharp from a few feet out to infinity.  For maximum, rapid, performance its better not to have tilt, as getting it misaligned can be a pain.  If the Arca works, maybe its worth a try, but it won't be much good with the really wide angles.

IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 10:37:38 am by free1000 »
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mtomalty

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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 12:08:49 pm »

Quote
i.m.o. the best lenses are the rodenstock/sinar HR serial. they are tack sharp at all apertures


Hi Rainer

When you say that the rodenstock/sinar HR series of lenses are tack sharp at all
apertures am I to understand correctly that these lenses will perform satisfactorily
at apertures in the f11.5 to f22 range?

I have been under the impression,perhaps inaccurately, that these lenses are optimized
for the f8 to f11 range

Thanks

Mark
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rainer_v

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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 12:56:40 pm »

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Hi Rainer

When you say that the rodenstock/sinar HR series of lenses are tack sharp at all
apertures am I to understand correctly that these lenses will perform satisfactorily
at apertures in the f11.5 to f22 range?

I have been under the impression,perhaps inaccurately, that these lenses are optimized
for the f8 to f11 range

Thanks

Mark
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that is right, they are optimized for f8 till f11 as all these symmetric or pseudosymmetric lenses, but they remain sharp at open apertures, or at least much sharper than other lenses of this type which are often not usuable at f4 or 5,6.
although diffraction follows in general optical laws, if i understand that correctly, and so sharpness has to decrease with 33/39 mp sensors, i often use the HR lenses at f16 and f22 as well without having bad impression. i think it hold sharpness better at this stops as a.e. the normal rodenstock digital lenses, and once i compared the 55 rodenstock ( i gave it back )  with the 60HR i believed to see this. but i am rarely really "pixel peeping", so maybee someone other want to test this more scientific.
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mtomalty

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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 01:36:23 pm »

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although diffraction follows in general optical laws, if i understand that correctly, and so sharpness has to decrease with 33/39 mp sensors, i often use the HR lenses at f16 and f22 as well without having bad impression.


Thanks very much for your impressions,Rainer.
They help provide a more complete picture of these products in actual use

I have read,on a number of occasions,that the sharpness dropoff after f11 with such lenses
was very dramatic,to the point of near unuseability.                                                                 Your experience suggests that while the degradation is measureable the results are still
very satisfactory

Mark
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