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Author Topic: MaxMax 5D and Normal 5D Raws available  (Read 14078 times)

docmaas

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MaxMax 5D and Normal 5D Raws available
« on: December 31, 2007, 02:08:20 am »

On Monday 12/24/2007 I met with Jack Fletcher and we took a short series
of test shots using his unmodified 5D and my Maxmax Hotrod modded 5D.
The pictures can be found on my pbase pages:  
http://www.pbase.com/masimo/5d_hotrod

I have also uploaded the raws to Mediafire so that anyone who wishes to
can download them and see if they can see any differences with and without
the aa filter.

I won't poison the well with my findings but I will say that Raw developer
seems to be a better tool for converting the hotrod files.

I have also posted this on photo.net in the canon eos forum, dpreview.com
under Canon EOS-1D/1Ds/5D, forum.getdpi.com under canon and Luminous landscape
under Digital Cameras, Backs and Shooting Techniques

It would be nice to have one discussion place for this but I have no idea where
it should be so I think we will have to live with multiple threads on multiple sites.

Here is the download information for the files.

Mike


File name: Normal iso400 f8 28mm L IMG_2052.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?alzzeoonxhx


File name: normal iso400 f8 28mm L IMG_2050.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?ar2jocyyyiw


File name: normal iso800 f5.6 200mmIMG_2048.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?dkrkilzdmbc


File name: normal iso400 f5.6 200mmIMG_2047.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?e4yiuz4lzvv


File name: normal iso200 f5.6 200mmIMG_2046.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?834tml8t0nx


File name: Maxmax iso400 f8 28mm 24-105 L at 28mm IMG_9225.CR2
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?celxlbzt39


File name: Maxmax iso400 f8 28mm 24-105 L at 28mm IMG_9220.CR2
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?cjrunbttmoa


File name: Maxmax iso400 f5.6 200mm IMG_9214.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?5gcnklxtxno


File name: Maxmax iso200 f5.6 200mm IMG_9213.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?0m1do2ll3wv


File name: Maxmax iso800 f5.6 200mm IMG_9215.CR2:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?7ni2kwcv5jx
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marcmccalmont

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MaxMax 5D and Normal 5D Raws available
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 02:51:12 am »

I have had very good luck using DxO as a RAW converter for my MaxMax Hotrod 5D. use lens sharpen .25, also smart sharpen and focus fixer work very well too.
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

docmaas

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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 02:00:09 pm »

Quote
I have had very good luck using DxO as a RAW converter for my MaxMax Hotrod 5D. use lens sharpen .25, also smart sharpen and focus fixer work very well too.
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Marc,

Have you heard that dxo has incorporated a rootkit like copy protection on their latest release.  Seems to be a lot of unhappy people about this issue.

Do you know of any other hotrod 5D cameras?

Best,

Mike
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RobertJ

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MaxMax 5D and Normal 5D Raws available
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 08:06:51 pm »

That Canon 200mm f/2.8L looks like a nice lens judging from BOTH those ISO 200 files.  Thanks for the RAWs.
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 08:58:09 pm »

I already made comparisons of the sample shots offered at MaxMax, but that was only one pair of shots with the Canon 5D. Now I wanted to verify what I saw earlier and downloaded these raw files (note: the link to IMG_9225.CR2 is dead).

I found the pair IMG_2046 and IMG_9213 good for direct comparison, and what I see reinforces my opinion: the AA filter removal was  failure.

I looked at the shots in PS (generated by ACR from the MaxMax samples) as well as the non-demosaiced display with Rawnalyze, which shows the ultimate sharpness. I uploaded a layered TIFF, 16 MB with the screenshots; everyone can do the comparison with generated TIFFs for himself.

There are spots, where the hotrod-image is slightly sharper - but there are other spots, where the other camera is sharper! For example the right side of the hotrod shot is sharper, but the left side is softer in their sample.

It is somewhat disappointing for me, for I was thinking of an IR conversion with MaxMax, but I don't know what to think of them.

To Marc: did you buy your 5D from MaxMax or were you their first 5D customer? When watching the raw images, the camera body number appeared to me somehow known (I don't memorize even much shorter numbers, but the "image" of the number can be recognized). I checked out: the hotrod sample on their site is from your camera.

This has an interesting aspect: my conclusion re the lack of effectiveless of the AA filter removal is based still on a single camera.
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Gabor

marcmccalmont

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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 09:26:52 pm »

Quote
I already made comparisons of the sample shots offered at MaxMax, but that was only one pair of shots with the Canon 5D. Now I wanted to verify what I saw earlier and downloaded these raw files (note: the link to IMG_9225.CR2 is dead).

I found the pair IMG_2046 and IMG_9213 good for direct comparison, and what I see reinforces my opinion: the AA filter removal was  failure.

I looked at the shots in PS (generated by ACR from the MaxMax samples) as well as the non-demosaiced display with Rawnalyze, which shows the ultimate sharpness. I uploaded a layered TIFF, 16 MB with the screenshots; everyone can do the comparison with generated TIFFs for himself.

There are spots, where the hotrod-image is slightly sharper - but there are other spots, where the other camera is sharper! For example the right side of the hotrod shot is sharper, but the left side is softer in their sample.

It is somewhat disappointing for me, for I was thinking of an IR conversion with MaxMax, but I don't know what to think of them.

To Marc: did you buy your 5D from MaxMax or were you their first 5D customer? When watching the raw images, the camera body number appeared to me somehow known (I don't memorize even much shorter numbers, but the "image" of the number can be recognized). I checked out: the hotrod sample on their site is from your camera.

This has an interesting aspect: my conclusion re the lack of effectiveless of the AA filter removal is based still on a single camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had the camera for a year then sent it to them for modification. I think the lack of AA filter can be argued in both directions but pixel sized details are sharper without it, Overall RAW sharpness is improved, after software sharpening is only a bit better but could be argued more realistic (life like?) Moire is worse. My eye always likes tack sharp images and some how I think the individual items are better defined in an image (on print). but it certainly boils down to personal taste and is it worth $450 for an arguably small improvement, for me it was I'm very happy with the mod.
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

marcmccalmont

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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 09:29:17 pm »

Quote
Hi Marc,

Have you heard that dxo has incorporated a rootkit like copy protection on their latest release.  Seems to be a lot of unhappy people about this issue.

Do you know of any other hotrod 5D cameras?

Best,

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know of any other modified 5D's
What are the issues on the copy protection? I haven't run into a problem with it although I have run into a few bugs in Version 5
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

marcmccalmont

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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 09:32:43 pm »

Quote
I already made comparisons of the sample shots offered at MaxMax, but that was only one pair of shots with the Canon 5D. Now I wanted to verify what I saw earlier and downloaded these raw files (note: the link to IMG_9225.CR2 is dead).

I found the pair IMG_2046 and IMG_9213 good for direct comparison, and what I see reinforces my opinion: the AA filter removal was  failure.

I looked at the shots in PS (generated by ACR from the MaxMax samples) as well as the non-demosaiced display with Rawnalyze, which shows the ultimate sharpness. I uploaded a layered TIFF, 16 MB with the screenshots; everyone can do the comparison with generated TIFFs for himself.

There are spots, where the hotrod-image is slightly sharper - but there are other spots, where the other camera is sharper! For example the right side of the hotrod shot is sharper, but the left side is softer in their sample.

It is somewhat disappointing for me, for I was thinking of an IR conversion with MaxMax, but I don't know what to think of them.

To Marc: did you buy your 5D from MaxMax or were you their first 5D customer? When watching the raw images, the camera body number appeared to me somehow known (I don't memorize even much shorter numbers, but the "image" of the number can be recognized). I checked out: the hotrod sample on their site is from your camera.

This has an interesting aspect: my conclusion re the lack of effectiveless of the AA filter removal is based still on a single camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh, I have stated in previous posts I didn't have the presence of mind to take similar before and after test shots so all my impressions are subjective for whatever that is worth. (probably not much!)
Happy New Year
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

docmaas

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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2007, 11:28:52 pm »

Quote
This has an interesting aspect: my conclusion re the lack of effectiveless of the AA filter removal is based still on a single camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How do you figure.  My shots are not from the same camera as Marc's and therefore not the same as the sample shots on the Maxmax site.  That make's two cameras doesn't it?

Mike
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docmaas

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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2007, 11:46:44 pm »

More interesting information.  According to a canon white paper on the 5D located at Rob Galbraith's site the AA filter design changed with the 5d and the second of the two AA filters now serves as the cover glass for the Sensor.  This means that removing the filter block is only removing one of the two aa filters and as a consequence only half of the AA filter has actually been removed.

I've been corresponding with Maxmax on this and so far Dan LLewelyn is unconvinced.

There is no doubt that the images are sharper on modded 5D it can be seen in all the images by blowing them up to where they are pixellated.  I have been doing everything without any sharpening or noise reduction.  

The non modded camera at the same pixelated level usually shows the same object covering 110% or more of the pixels used in the modded camera.  That is a direct effect of the blur AA filter.  It also reduces color fidelity by virtue of spreading the colors over more pixels and color counts of tifs from the two cameras confirm that as well.  Wires and cracks look larger on the non modded camera too another indication of the smearing caused by the AA filter.

OTOH there is a lot more color artifacting in the pixellated blowups in the modded camera but as far as I know this does not show up in the printed files.  I suspect it would if you tried to print large enough that the artifacts became discrete printer dots but they are far below that level for even very large prints.

I'm disappointed because the modded camera doesn't come close to the Sigma, leicas or kodaks in sharpness even though it is better than a standard 5D.  However given Canon's sensor aa filter design for this camera this is the best that can be done.  

There is one sensor designer commenting on the thread in dpreview and his explanations are worth reading.  Here is a link to the thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...thread=26233965

I am continuing to test and hoping to be able to see what the poster over there is indicating I can see.  Right now it looks like horizontal resolution is pretty much the same if the camera is in landscape or portrait mode but it looks slightly less vertically in portrait mode about 10/300 or .3% which even if it is correct is not much to worry about.

If you do an IR conversion on a 5D you will either probably also end up with half of the AA filter remaining but no IR cut filter so resolutionwise you will be dealing with the same things Marc and I are.  A little better but not as much as I would like.
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docmaas

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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2007, 11:52:52 pm »

Have a look here on copy protection on dx0.  It is getting a lot of bad press right now.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...25797701&page=1

Mike

Quote
I don't know of any other modified 5D's
What are the issues on the copy protection? I haven't run into a problem with it although I have run into a few bugs in Version 5
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2008, 12:02:26 am »

You are right, Mike, I messed up the body numbers. I have some shots from Marc, he posted them for another comparison, but I don't have any shot from his 5D with AA filter.

That means I don't see any advantage of removing the AA filter based now on two cameras. Still a too small sampling to be conclusive.
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Gabor

docmaas

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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 02:56:03 am »

I've just posted the results of relative MTF tests on dpreview. Here is the link:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=26273971

MTF is @8% better in landscape mode where the horizontal aa flter has been removed than it is in portait mode where the vertical aa filter is still present.
A fuller explanation is in that thread.

Best,

Mike
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