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Author Topic: Battle of Barytas: abrasion?  (Read 6811 times)

rsk72000

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« on: December 23, 2007, 11:04:16 am »

The major criticism on the Harman paper is it is so susceptible to abrasion during and after printing. I find it very interesting that Michael found little difference between the papers. Does this mean he handles all his prints very carefully or are they all equally sensitive?

Have you found the Ilford or Hahn to be more durable than Harman in this regard?

I have the Canon ipf5100. After a couple of days drying time it gets better but for the first day or two even brushing dust off with a soft paint brush can leave marks in the surface.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2007, 11:45:34 am »

Quote
The major criticism on the Harman paper is it is so susceptible to abrasion during and after printing. I find it very interesting that Michael found little difference between the papers. Does this mean he handles all his prints very carefully or are they all equally sensitive?

Have you found the Ilford or Hahn to be more durable than Harman in this regard?

I have the Canon ipf5100. After a couple of days drying time it gets better but for the first day or two even brushing dust off with a soft paint brush can leave marks in the surface.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


There's no real data on fade resistance either. The Harman page on that subject isn't very convincing so far.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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number8

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2007, 05:29:05 am »

I also find the Harman Gloss FB Al to be very fragile. One problem I have with my 3800 is the pizza wheel marks caused when feeding from the back of the printer. These get very prominent on this paper. If I want to get rid of theese I need to feed from the front, but the front feeder doesn't take the 17x25 sized paper (it's really nice to see a paper that is 25 inch long). I agree that you can cause scratches with only a soft brush, I did that yesterday.

I'm excited about the paper, but this is a major problem I think.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 05:31:15 am by Magnus Lindbom »
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dealy663

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2007, 09:26:00 am »

Yes the paper surface is quite fragile, and needs to be treated very carefully.

I was able to get prints without the pizza wheel marks from the rear feed of the 3800 by doing the following:
 - Turn off bi directional printing
 - Increase the the drying time for each head pass to 5
 - set the platen gap to wider
 - set the paper width to 4

Quote
I also find the Harman Gloss FB Al to be very fragile. One problem I have with my 3800 is the pizza wheel marks caused when feeding from the back of the printer. These get very prominent on this paper. If I want to get rid of theese I need to feed from the front, but the front feeder doesn't take the 17x25 sized paper (it's really nice to see a paper that is 25 inch long). I agree that you can cause scratches with only a soft brush, I did that yesterday.

I'm excited about the paper, but this is a major problem I think.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162836\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Derek
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budjames

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 12:34:32 pm »

Or just use a better paper!
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Bud James
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Dave Gurtcheff

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2007, 01:25:03 pm »

Quote
I also find the Harman Gloss FB Al to be very fragile. One problem I have with my 3800 is the pizza wheel marks caused when feeding from the back of the printer. These get very prominent on this paper. If I want to get rid of theese I need to feed from the front, but the front feeder doesn't take the 17x25 sized paper (it's really nice to see a paper that is 25 inch long). I agree that you can cause scratches with only a soft brush, I did that yesterday.

I'm excited about the paper, but this is a major problem I think.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162836\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I offer three size fine art prints that I have standardized on: 13"x19", 16"x24", and 20"x30". The 16"x24"s and 20"x30"s I make with my 7600 and roll paper. The 13"x19"s I use the 3800 printer. I would LOVE to use sheet paper and the 3800 to make my 16"x24"s, so 17"x25" paper is something I would jump on right away. Who makes this size paper? I have never seen it advertised.
Thanks
Dave  
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Dave Gurtcheff

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2007, 03:26:13 pm »

Quote
I offer three size fine art prints that I have standardized on: 13"x19", 16"x24", and 20"x30". The 16"x24"s and 20"x30"s I make with my 7600 and roll paper. The 13"x19"s I use the 3800 printer. I would LOVE to use sheet paper and the 3800 to make my 16"x24"s, so 17"x25" paper is something I would jump on right away. Who makes this size paper? I have never seen it advertised.
Thanks
Dave 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Going to answer my own question: I found that Inkjetart.com packages 17"x25" Micro Ceramic Luster in 50 sheet packages. I also found an old thread on this site which stated that this paper was very nice and comparable to Epson Premium Luster, which I use quite often. I ordered some 17"x25" Inkjetart paper, and down loaded their free profiles (although one user said the Epson 3800 PLPP profile works well with the Inkjetart paper).
Regards
Dave G
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rsk72000

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2007, 12:54:50 am »

To get back to the original point of the post... Does anyone have any experience with the relative abrasion resistance of the various Baryta papers?
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Paul Sumi

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 12:43:40 am »

Quote
To get back to the original point of the post... Does anyone have any experience with the relative abrasion resistance of the various Baryta papers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162976\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm just starting to test the Harmon Gloss FBAL, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and Epson Exhibition Fiber papers, printing 8.5"  x 11" on an Epson R2400 with manufacturer's profiles.  I'm just starting to test for relative resistance to dings and scratches, so no hard data yet.  But I'll let you know how all three fare.

Paul
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Mike Arst

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 07:55:49 pm »

Quote
To get back to the original point of the post... Does anyone have any experience with the relative abrasion resistance of the various Baryta papers?
I also found it odd that Michael Reichmann didn't find abrasion to be much of a problem with the Harman gloss paper. I have to handle the stuff with near-pathological care to avoid scratches. But today I was at a camera store that had some Harman Gloss samples. The samples were out in the open and had clearly been handled quite a bit, so I didn't feel there'd be anything wrong with trying a fairly harmless scratch-test. I dragged the back of a fingernail very lightly over the surface of one of the prints. If I were to do that with one of my own prints (Epson R1800) I would see a mark immediately and I'd consider the print ruined. This did NOT happen to the sample at the store. I noticed that its surface was smoother-looking and slightly glossier-looking than the surface of prints I make in the R1800.

It got me wondering if there's a distinct difference in toughness of a print surface when (non-K3) Ultrachrome ink is used with gloss optimizer, as opposed to some other ink. (For instance, Ultrachrome K3 with the gloss-enhancing chemistry in each ink droplet. But I don't know what printer they'd used for the sample in the store. The hand-written info on the print didn't include the name of the printer.)

B.t.w., Michael Reichmann noted in his baryta-battle article that he couldn't confirm whether the Harman paper contains optical brighteners. I have mail from Harman tech support, a couple of months ago, saying that it does.

I picked up a small amount of the new Ilford 'gold fiber silk' paper and will make a test print today or tomorrow. That paper's surface does seem a bit tougher, but I have the feeling I'm not going to like the lower gloss or the stippled look of the surface. (I do appreciate the lower cost. And the Ilford paper does pass, with flying colors, the "I thought I'd died and got sent back into the darkroom" smell-test. I might have to buy a bottle of hypo and take a whiff of it to add to the nostalgia. :-)
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Mike Arst

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 08:54:27 pm »

Had to try making a print right away...the Ilford people aren't kidding when they recommend using the R1800's manual feeder. First two attempts: the manual feeder wouldn't latch onto the paper and I got paper-jam warnings. I gave up and used the R1800's regular sheet feeder. Big mistake: the paper has such a strong curl away from the "emulsion" that the print heads scraped along the trailing 1/3 of the print, ruining it. Next time, I was able to feed the paper successfully into the manual feed slot. But a sound coming out of the printer toward the end of printing suggested there might still have been some contact between the print head mechanism and the paper surface. This paper has too much curl -- much more than others I've used.

They also aren't kidding when they suggest wearing cotton gloves when handling the paper. It's a good idea generally of course but the Ilford paper is  highly susceptible to picking up finger-marks. I made a second print with gloss optimizer over the entire surface and the surface was better protected that way. With "glop" used, the Ilford paper also seems less susceptible to scratching than the Harman paper.

The color response (reds and yellows, at least) seems very good with the "canned" Ilford profile and somehow the fine detail in the image seems to be rendered a bit more sharply than when the same shot is printed on the Harman Gloss. (For all I know, it's simply a matter of contrast differences between the two companies' "canned" profiles.) I'm not crazy for the Ilford paper surface and so the jury is still out...will have to print a shot that's heavy on blues and greens rather than reds and yellows...
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AaronPhotog

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 08:57:18 pm »

So far, with my 3800 here in Honolulu, there are no sign of any abrasions, or susceptibility to abrasions with the Harman FB Al.  I've tried corners of photo paper and my fingernail, but zilch, nada.  A knife works, or the edge of a screwdriver, but that's about it.  I do let them dry before I handle them much.

In my tests of the various "glossy fiber" and "baryta" papers by the numbers, what was most impressive about Harman FB Al are the absolutely smooth inking curves with no reversals or odd bumps in the plots, and excellent blacks (d=2.46) right near the end of the curve.  This makes for a very linear response.  

Yes, I do see evidence of very slight use of brighteners, but the paper white is better than most such papers to begin with, so it doesn't contain nearly as much OBA as the others.  Highest OBA indication I've found so far is the Epson Exhibition paper.  In comparison, the Harman gives me much better highlight separation because the Epson paper is actually darker than the Harman even though it looks as if it's about the same.  Epson has better blacks at d=2.59, but then there is a slight reversal for several steps at the end of the plot, and some bronzing issues in the midtones.  When it comes to the difference in the deepest blacks, one would need a very strong light to see the difference, and it's easier to block the shadows and lose detail with the long flat and descending top of the curve on the Epson paper.

From a purely aesthetic standpoint, again I prefer the Harman prints, even if the tones or colors match closely, because of the surface.  It gives me visibly more detail than most "Baryta" papers and looks less "RC plastic" than some.  I showed a black and white Harman FB Al print to a professional photographer friend, and asked him to tell me if it was digital or traditional silver.  After a long, close study of it, he picked the latter.  I can see a difference, but it's very close.

Aloha,
Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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Mike Arst

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 04:46:29 am »

> So far, with my 3800 here in Honolulu, there are no sign of any abrasions, or susceptibility to abrasions with the Harman FB Al.  I've tried corners of photo paper and my fingernail, but zilch, nada.

Very interesting. I don't know what to conclude, other than that the type of ink and the gloss optimizer chemical, very different between the R1800 and 3800, must be making a difference. If that's a stretch, I don't know what else accounts for the difference.

> From a purely aesthetic standpoint, again I prefer the Harman prints, even if the tones or colors match closely, because of the surface.

Likewise, though at the moment I'm leaning a bit toward the Ilford paper for noticeably better color response (reds and yellows, at least). As I look at the same shot printed on both, there seems to be better separation within midtones in the Ilford, and slightly less contrast (providing better highlight detail). By comparison some of the midtone areas in the print on Harman gloss look a bit muddy. And then there's that unexpected impression of greater 'sharpness' (fine image detail) in the Ilford print. But, so far all of this has been done with the "canned" profiles. I've just bought a used X-rite Pulse system -- haven't yet learned how to use it. I'm not going to have a good feel for how these papers perform until I've made decent profiles. Hope I don't end up wasting a lot of paper learning how to do it. The person who advised going for this used gear said that in his experience it's pretty hard to make a bad profile with the Pulse...I'll find out soon enough.

The strong 'reverse' curl of the Ilford might get to be a serious problem with 13x19 prints, though. I wonder if there's some way of getting it to flatten out a bit before printing on it.
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Hendrik

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 05:32:03 am »

Abrasion resistance is imo a very important item of a good paper. This is the reason I won’t going to test the Harman paper. I use an outside framer and can’t expect she handles the paper just as neurotic as I do. The Ilford Silk paper is nice, but it’s too much a pearl paper. The Innova Ultra Smooth Gloss 285 gsm is, until today, my first choice, I like the surface. I’m anxious to test the Epson Exhibition Paper, so I hope it’s available in my country very soon.

I noticed no one mention the possibility to spray the print with PremierArt Print Shield. I have done a few prints and like the results.
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Mike Arst

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 07:51:16 am »

> Abrasion resistance is imo a very important item of a good paper. This is the reason I won’t going to test the Harman paper. I use an outside framer and can’t expect she handles the paper just as neurotic as I do.

This could definitely become a problem, yes. But I'm still intrigued by some reports of no abrasion problems with the Harman paper. What could be making this difference? I'll send e-mail to Harman again and see if they have any comments to offer.

> I noticed no one mention the possibility to spray the print with PremierArt Print Shield. I have done a few prints and like the results.

This has been suggested to me, but I don't think I have a sufficiently dust-free environment for it at the moment.
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AaronPhotog

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 05:42:22 pm »

Mike,

In my tests, I didn't try any of the protective sprays with the Baryta papers.  It didn't seem necessary, as they seem to hold up to handling just fine.  Plus, in the tests, I wanted to see how the different papers performed without anything clouding the issue (pun intended).  Ilford, by the way, was started by a gentleman named Harman.  When the employees took over, they wanted to name the new line of inkjet papers after the founder.  At least that's my understanding.

I expect to have some of the Ilford Gold Silk Baryta paper to test, shortly.  The reverse curl you mention was a problem with Moab's Colorado Glossy paper, which also is high in OBA's and is kind of thin.  It just won't lay flat.  Otherwise, it shows promise in terms of response except for a severe reversal in the last four steps of black.  You'd have to linearize it to stop short of full black inking.

Definitely make custom profiles for yourself.  You'll be able to get very similar color response from any of the new Baryta papers, and you'll blow the socks off many of the canned profiles.

Aloha,
Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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Mike Arst

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 06:27:39 pm »

Quote
I expect to have some of the Ilford Gold Silk Baryta paper to test, shortly.  The reverse curl you mention was a problem with Moab's Colorado Glossy paper, which also is high in OBA's and is kind of thin.  It just won't lay flat.
A bit of curl toward the emulsion would have been acceptable with conventional enlarging paper, as the easel blades would hold the edges flat and the direction of curl would take care of the rest. The reverse would have made the paper unusable, except I suppose for someone using a vacuum easel. With the inkjet printer, only a very small part of the paper is being held down and the rest is free to curl. I don't know how I'd make a large print with the Ilford paper at the moment. Surely a large area of the sheet will be bowed outward toward the print heads. I've written to Ilford about this, using their insanely small web form. (Why DO companies do that on their support sites, anyway? Are their webmasters afraid that civilization as we know it will come to a crashing halt if they provide space for more than 8 or 10 letters visible within a text box at one time? Grumble.)

Quote
Definitely make custom profiles for yourself.
The Pulse's battery is charging now. I have no experience with this kind of equipment, and I'm not sure what to expect yet...how many sheets end up wasted before one gets it right. Hoping I can figure out how to print the target images correctly via Qimage. I stopped printing from within Photoshop and now do it all from Qimage.
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AaronPhotog

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2007, 12:28:21 am »

Mike,

Here's an old review of the Pulse Color Elite that may be helpful:

http://www.dtgweb.com/reviews/xritepulse.php
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Aaron Dygart,
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Mike Arst

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2007, 02:21:33 am »

Quote
Here's an old review of the Pulse Color Elite that may be helpful:
http://www.dtgweb.com/reviews/xritepulse.php
Thanks. I was glad to see that at least they didn't completely pan the thing. :-)

I'm a bit perplexed about finding the precise printing area of the R1800, which is information I need to enter before I write the target files to disk. I suppose I could carefully measure the maximum left-to-right/top-to-bottom extents of the gloss optimizer in an existing print (those edges are obvious enough) and enter the measurements into the dialog where the 'max printing area' data is required. But there must be a less fuzzy approach than that. Exactly what image size to use for the target in printing it isn't yet clear. Per the documentation, you can also print the targets directly from the X-rite software. Maybe that's the best approach. As there's no profile involved at that point, I assume that the R1800's "ICM > No Color Adjustment" settings are the one to use (same as when using a profile).
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AaronPhotog

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Battle of Barytas: abrasion?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2007, 02:55:35 am »

Quote
Per the documentation, you can also print the targets directly from the X-rite software. Maybe that's the best approach. As there's no profile involved at that point, I assume that the R1800's "ICM > No Color Adjustment" settings are the one to use (same as when using a profile).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163993\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yup.  That should work.  I don't think you'll be wasting much paper.  Print the large target, read it, make the profile, then, if they have a test print, go ahead and print it with the new profile.  There may not be any need to tweak it from there, unless you are using a paper with a lot of Optical Brightening Agents (OBA's), in which case you may have to brighten things a little (The OBA's will fool your spectrometer, if it has no UV filter, into thinking that the lightest tones are brighter than they are).  If your spectrometer has a UV filter built in, then that shouldn't be an issue, but if not, it's easy to compensate.  The software may even have a means of recognizing the effects of OBA's and compensating for them automatically.

Have fun.

Aloha,
Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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