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Author Topic: MF digital entry system  (Read 6511 times)

mazma

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MF digital entry system
« on: December 21, 2007, 09:13:48 am »

hi all,

i would like to know your opinion on what it could be the best way for me to enter in the MF digital.

a little background info. i am shooting mainly portraits and lifestyle. i use nikon digital (mainly a D2X). i will probably upgrade to a D3X when it will come out. D3 is not necessary for me at the moment. i feel that i need to move toward the quality of MF in order to take my next step forward.
ps. i know it is not the tool, but the craft, but it is also my experience for everything else in the past, including pro sports, that a better tool helps you craft better....

anyhow. my budget is somehow limited.
i started this all process while considering the mamiya 645afdII with the zd back. so we are talking of a 8-15k range.
problem i see with the mamiya 645 is mainly in the flash sync. not fast enough for outdoor lighting. also, once i move to MF, i love the idea of using the WL large and bright viewfinder.
so i looked at the RZ with the ZD back. crop factor seems a bit too much, though. i like wide angles. and it is a big camera, compared to the next choice which was the hasselblad 503CWD. i love that one, but then i also looked at the rollei 6008AF digital bundle...

now i am completely stuck, looking for suggestion and new ideas.
ROLLEI:
rollei 6008AF digital seems to be my choice at the moment. AF and metering are useful at times. it seems a great camera, and i have the possibility to go to the Hy6 when i feel i can upgrade. the hy6 is absolutely beautiful. rollei battery life and dated system, a bit of a concern...

also, is hy6 with an older back (like the p20) a feasible option?

HASSY:
hasselblad H is not an option. i am not into the close system, at all. if i'd be one with an H1 or H2 i'll be pissed... i already had my share of nikon DX lenses and now FX. so i know that customer respect is a lost concept nowadays.
hasselblad 503cwd...so beautiful and tiny.. but is it going to evolve, or am i buying into something already past its peak?

MAMIYA:
what is the alliance with phase1 supposed to bring?
i am scared of the 645 afdII. i feel a new one might be coming soon with the sync i need. and it is like a bigger and slower nikon, even if with of course much better quality.
and the RZ67proIID feels like a bigger sister of the 503cwd, with the same concerns...

i apologize for the long post. but it is a tough decision to make for me... and also maybe you can share your insight on how you recoup your costs by charging the clients back for equipment usage.

thanks,
alberto
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Dinarius

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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2007, 12:19:31 pm »

Quote
HASSY:
hasselblad H is not an option. i am not into the close system, at all. if i'd be one with an H1 or H2 i'll be pissed... i already had my share of nikon DX lenses and now FX. so i
alberto
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Alberto,

Aren't Nikon and Canon closed systems?

Can't you remove the back from the Hassy and put it on your view camera?

Surely that is all you really need?

Yes, if you want more than one digital back, or if you think that you might like to start with one make of back and then change in the future, then the Hassy is not for you. But, otherwise.............  

D.
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jimgolden

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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2007, 12:39:46 pm »

with an 8-15k budget, look for a refurb 22MP back.

aptus22, imacon/hass, P1 p series - etc - hass CF backs are NOT closed - they have adapter plates that make them VERY open

the new phase product will be interesting, but do you want to be the guinea pig?

H3 - WL available, 1/800th flash sync...
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 12:40:32 pm by jimgolden »
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amsp

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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2007, 02:26:32 pm »

What guinea pig? It's a Mamiya camera and most likely and updated AFDII, so it's hardly like launching a completely new camera platform or anything. Besides, Mamiya has a long reputation of rock-solid and trouble-free cameras. Also, leaf shutter lenses for the new camera system (and possibly backwards compatible w. the AFD) have been announced.


Quote
with an 8-15k budget, look for a refurb 22MP back.

aptus22, imacon/hass, P1 p series - etc - hass CF backs are NOT closed - they have adapter plates that make them VERY open

the new phase product will be interesting, but do you want to be the guinea pig?

H3 - WL available, 1/800th flash sync...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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mcfoto

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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2007, 02:53:26 pm »

Hi
I have owned two MF systems a Hasselblad  500CM & now the Mamiya AFD, AFDII & the ZD camera. I went with Mamiya in 2000 because of the auto focus. I am very happy with the system & plus it is very affordable. There new lenses that they have released look pretty impressive. It is an open system & I think the alliance with Phase will be a positive one & be good for both parties. I would wait & see what this new Mamiya body is like. If you are a Phase user or intend to be have a very close look at Mamiya. The new Hy6 is Sinar & Leaf only. Hasselblad have gone there own direction with the H3DII. This coming year I will be shooting a lot with the new Canon 1DsIII along with  Aptus & my ZD.


Denis
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jimgolden

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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2007, 03:46:48 pm »

@asmp - not knocking mamiya - the fact is that any new digital system has kinks to work out, even if 2 proven players come together...

they "announced" the lenses, the AFD3 + a new "mystery" mobile...the mystery is the one I'm talking about

I prefer to work w/ a solution thats out in the market and being worked with on a daily basis
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 03:48:39 pm by jimgolden »
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lance_schad

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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2007, 04:20:38 pm »

Quote
@asmp - not knocking mamiya - the fact is that any new digital system has kinks to work out, even if 2 proven players come together...

they "announced" the lenses, the AFD3 + a new "mystery" mobile...the mystery is the one I'm talking about

I prefer to work w/ a solution thats out in the market and being worked with on a daily basis
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well the nice thing to look forward to if you do invest in a digital back for the MamiyaAFD II Mount today is a commitment that there will be developments that will not obsolete your digital back and lenses. You just have the option to upgrade the body if you choose to.

If you choose to go with a Phase One back they have always had very good trade in programs that have benefited their users. An example is that you could trade in one of their older working backs like a P20 and get $9,000 of a P45+. Older non P-Backs have a value of $6k towards the P45+. So there is preservation of your investment. From their history you know that they will be innovating and offering a path for you.

Also with the Mamiya AFD mount on your digital back platform you can also use that DB on the Mamiya Pro IID with an adapter. This gives you versitilty for different lens choices (tilt/shift.etc...) and faster flash sync. So you can have the best of both worlds.

Another good point is the amount of used lenses that are on the market for both of the above systems. The Mamiya 645 AFDII can use older Mamiya 645 manual lenses and the RZ Pro IID can use older RB lenses (you may not get the most out of your back, and i suggest you have them service checked with Mamiya ) but you have options. Mamiya has released two new Digital lenses already and more are on the way from what I have read.

One more thing is the new Mamiya 645-HB adapter which allows the use of Hasselblad V-series lenses on the body is very cool. We have not used the Mamiya branded one, but we just got a third-party manufactured one in and it works great. You have to use the Mamiya in M mode, but you get the use of Focus assist. Even more choices.

So I would not be afraid of the Mamiya 645 AFD II platform.

Here is my suggestion for an entry level system: P21M refurb w/ Mamiya 645 AFD II. here is a link to an actual sample file: [a href=\"http://tinyurl.com/2oj286]http://tinyurl.com/2oj286[/url]

There are some of these systems available . PM or email for additional info.

Have a great holiday.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 04:28:59 pm by lance_schad »
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amsp

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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2007, 05:14:44 pm »

Jim, I think you've misunderstood, nowhere are they saying there will be TWO cameras. The new camera is just a joint venture between mamiya and P1. I expect it to be nothing more than an AFDIII  where maybe P1 has helped out with R&D and/or maybe electronics and digital back integration. It's not like P1 is making their own camera here..


Quote
@asmp - not knocking mamiya - the fact is that any new digital system has kinks to work out, even if 2 proven players come together...

they "announced" the lenses, the AFD3 + a new "mystery" mobile...the mystery is the one I'm talking about

I prefer to work w/ a solution thats out in the market and being worked with on a daily basis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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jimgolden

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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 06:38:32 pm »

@asmp - then that IS a proven system and I take that back.

I was under the impression there was a true PhaMiya unit coming down the pike

so it's a AFD3 w/ AF leaf shutter lenses then?
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amsp

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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 07:11:46 pm »

Well, they haven't released the details yet, but it makes sense that they would continue to build and improve on the AFD line. It might or might not be called AFDIII, but I'd be very surprised if they went and built a completely new system. As for lenses, they have confirmed that there will be a new 150mm f/2.8 and a new line of AF leaf shutter lenses so far.


Quote
@asmp - then that IS a proven system and I take that back.

I was under the impression there was a true PhaMiya unit coming down the pike

so it's a AFD3 w/ AF leaf shutter lenses then?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mort54

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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2007, 08:00:18 pm »

Quote
What guinea pig? It's a Mamiya camera and most likely and updated AFDII, so it's hardly like launching a completely new camera platform or anything.
Let's be quite clear - this is your assumption. Most expect this to be true, but it's still an assumption at this point. Neither Mamiya nor Phase has stated that the "new" camera will be an AFD III. Nor have they stated there will only be one new camera (there could be both a new Phase camera, and an AFD III - not likely, but not ruled out by the public statements). They have stated that it will use the same back interface as the AFD II, and the same lens mount as the AFD II, and that there will be leaf shutter lenses for it. That's pretty much all that's been publicly stated.

Now, I'm not saying it won't be an AFD III, and you may ultimately be proven right (along with all the rest of us who hold the same assumption). However, I'm just saying that those that KNOW haven't said what's coming. I peruse the Phase One forums like you do, so we both know what has and hasn't been stated officially. I think it's important to not confuse assumptions with facts. We'll know soon enough.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 08:03:13 pm by Mort54 »
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amsp

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2007, 10:25:05 pm »

Don't be ridiculous. First of all, it states quite clearly in the press release "The first new camera system will be introduced in q1 2008", that's singular not plural. Second, you just need some common sense to realize that it would be economic suicide for Mamiya to help P1 develop a completely different camera that would compete with their own new camera. At the most P1 will maybe sell a re-branded version bundled with their backs (like the Leaf AFi). Then there's this link, which was posted a while ago, to top it off.. http://www.graphicart.ch/pages/news.htm#anchor-MamiyaNews

I never said I had the full facts or anything, but this I think we can be pretty sure of. The two companies joined forces to do things together, not make competing products.


Quote
Let's be quite clear - this is your assumption. Most expect this to be true, but it's still an assumption at this point. Neither Mamiya nor Phase has stated that the "new" camera will be an AFD III. Nor have they stated there will only be one new camera (there could be both a new Phase camera, and an AFD III - not likely, but not ruled out by the public statements). They have stated that it will use the same back interface as the AFD II, and the same lens mount as the AFD II, and that there will be leaf shutter lenses for it. That's pretty much all that's been publicly stated.

Now, I'm not saying it won't be an AFD III, and you may ultimately be proven right (along with all the rest of us who hold the same assumption). However, I'm just saying that those that KNOW haven't said what's coming. I peruse the Phase One forums like you do, so we both know what has and hasn't been stated officially. I think it's important to not confuse assumptions with facts. We'll know soon enough.
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« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:31:47 pm by amsp »
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John_Black

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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2007, 10:32:50 pm »

Alberto - Forget about money right now, it's not important yet.  Find a dealer where you can shoot with the camera and back of your choice.  And when I saw shoot with it, I mean shoot!  Don't leave until you have a couple hundred RAWs to play with.  Shoot landscapes, people, indoors, outdoors, into the light, away from the light, with strobes, with candles - whatever...  Then if possible do the same with the camera/backs you're interested in.

The D2X and Canon pro-series bodies pack alot of punch in a very small package.  With medium format that package gets heavier, bigger, slower and it may not be as flexible as your Nikon kit.  The 1Ds3 is closing the gap with lower resolution MP backs, the bits are increasing and who knows what Nikon will add.  PMA is just around the corner, so it's probably worth waiting a couple months to see what's on the horizon.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2007, 05:17:15 am »

Quote
hi all,

i would like to know your opinion on what it could be the best way for me to enter in the MF digital.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Various thoughts.

First - budget.

MF gear is not cheap, you may need a new computer for speed and also some also run on macs

So I wouldnt even consider MF unless you have a good income stream

a 1DS3 with a few lenses 20.2.8 50 1.4 and 135 2 or whatever is pretty cheap compared to MF even if you are nikon

Second Budget

Dont be a cheapskate - if you jump onboard get your 'dream kit' I knew about the flash synch of mamiya and really wanted H1, after six months I changed to H1 so buying initially Mamiya was a waste of money in the long run

Specifics

Sinar backs and some older Hassy/Imacon have simply changed adapter plates so a system change is more possible - worth thinking about

Mamiya is the budget solution and you CAN get decent 400 flalsh sysnch lby getting a RZ67 and adapter plate and they may have a new camera on the way

Conclusion

I would get a 22mp sinar back and a mamiya 645AF body as an entry point - plenty of space for upgrading

Else a 1DS3 and three nice canon primes

P30s are amazing too but have a bit of a crop and better ISO than the 22mp generation and are around used - that in 645afd fit and a RZ67 - but there is not much wide angle

S
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Snook

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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2007, 08:02:36 am »

Quote
Various thoughts.

First - budget.

MF gear is not cheap, you may need a new computer for speed and also some also run on macs

So I wouldnt even consider MF unless you have a good income stream

a 1DS3 with a few lenses 20.2.8 50 1.4 and 135 2 or whatever is pretty cheap compared to MF even if you are nikon

Second Budget

Dont be a cheapskate - if you jump onboard get your 'dream kit' I knew about the flash synch of mamiya and really wanted H1, after six months I changed to H1 so buying initially Mamiya was a waste of money in the long run

Specifics

Sinar backs and some older Hassy/Imacon have simply changed adapter plates so a system change is more possible - worth thinking about

Mamiya is the budget solution and you CAN get decent 400 flalsh sysnch lby getting a RZ67 and adapter plate and they may have a new camera on the way

Conclusion

I would get a 22mp sinar back and a mamiya 645AF body as an entry point - plenty of space for upgrading

Else a 1DS3 and three nice canon primes

P30s are amazing too but have a bit of a crop and better ISO than the 22mp generation and are around used - that in 645afd fit and a RZ67 - but there is not much wide angle

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And If you really have the budget the best is to have BOTH.
I have been shooting with Canon for the last 4-5 years and just picked up a P30 (USED) with a AFDII and RZII Pro D.
Have not got a chance to use it yet but will post here as soon as I do.
I Plan on selling my 1DsMII and getting a 1DsMIII eventually, but really do not think tey made that much of an improvement!!
You need different tools for different Jobs. I am not going to use the P30 for shooting Kids and CAtalogue where I need to shoot fast and focus fast etc.. and I will no longer use the Canon for Portrait and advertising work..:+]
Snook
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mazma

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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2007, 08:55:26 am »

i am still very undecided. probably more, now that i have been looking now at phase1 backs, and the idea of a refurb one appeals me.

i am fully committed to digital, with my nice macpro , macbookpro and so on. so the hardware side is easy... already budgeted, bought and used for a while.

i am thinking MF not for the resolution, but for the better DR, sensor size and microns. the latter seems to me to be the most important factor at this moment.
everything i saw and read shows the difference. canon 22mp does not compare, and actually i am not interested in going for the high-end 39mp MF back either. it looks like the more megapixels are not bringing more DR...

yes, nikon and canon are closed system. nikon once very committed to customer loyalty. but now nikon after 40+ years decided to start disregarding previous camera owners with their moving on with G lenses and the DX/FX thing. that to me sucks. all the lenses i bought in the past two years are not working with my manual nikons, and now some of them won't work (well) with a D3x... enough to look at investing in other systems...
HB telling H1/H2 owners that new lenses won't work for them... that's probably even worse... a little too soon to disregard your products (and people who bought them)
but i still love the hassy V. maybe a refurb P1 to go with a 503...?

i am surprised that there was not much response to the 6008AF which comes with a P1 back. so you all think mamiya is a better option than the rollei?

ciao,
alberto
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free1000

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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2007, 09:14:45 am »

Completely agree with the 22Mp refurb back option. You can get an Aptus 65 for maybe $12k? Or Aptus 22 for less, and thats a great back.  I used one for a while and liked it before I got my Aptus 75.

I'd advise not to commit to a back until you have shot a test on both Aptus and Phase then taken the raw files back to base and played with them to see which you like best. In the end its a question of taste.

Mamiya AFD II bodies should be relatively inexpensive second hand. Actually I just got an AFD I body on Ebay with a film back for $900, not as good as the AFD II, but it seems to work fine.

As I don't shoot fashion, I didn't realise that the Mamiya has a much slower sync speed than the Hassleblad backs, this is a real killer for some fashion shooters, so it may have some bearing on a decision.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2007, 10:14:16 am »

Quote
i am surprised that there was not much response to the 6008AF which comes with a P1 back. so you all think mamiya is a better option than the rollei?

ciao,
alberto
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You original post mentions budget and mamiya is the budget option

(especially with phase refurbs)

Rollei - there are some used lenses about, the bodies are cheap and if you go with a sinar back there is an upgrade path to the Hy6

You need to ckeck out the mounts - I dont think a phase in rolei mount will work iwth the HY6 - sinar will - so with ae phase rollei you are in a very closed situation

Neither the Hy6 or rollei have a lense wider than 40mm the 35 is planned - it will be very expensive and I guess that a 28mm willl be near impossible to make

the P20 back is IMO a funny one - great quality but such a crop that you lose a lot of the 'look' and if you shoot for clients that want rectangel you are down to 11mp once you have chopped it from square

The other phase backs on a rollei are virtually unknown, although there was link knocking about

If you see a refurb rololei mount P25 that could be the way forward

Another thought - have you ever tried a Kodak SLRn - great files as base ISO -crap flash synch but about $1000US

S
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 10:17:35 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Geoffrey

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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2007, 04:53:29 pm »

I'm in a similar quandry with the Rollei stuff, but am already sitting with Rollei body and lenses. The P20 was specially made by Phase for the 6008AF, as a package, and is a good deal. If you like to shoot square (I do) and don't need wide, its available for some good prices (one for about $8-9k). But there is really very little upgrade path for it. No other Phases will fit this, except for some very few made to fit P25 and P45, mostly in Germany only.

Imacons and Sinars are the other two that will fit on a Rollei 6008, and the Leaf and Sinar will fit on the Hy6. There are some rumors that maybe Phase will jump in some day, but nothing is known.

I happen to think the ergonomics on the Rollei and the quality of the lenses is unsurpassed, but the digital world's camera of old-fashioned choice seems to have been the Contax 645 instead. If you like a WLF, wide lenses and good ergonomics, the Rollei still (for me) has some pretty good appeal.

Geoff
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2007, 12:48:13 am »

Hi Alberto,

I haven't posted to this thread so far even though I shoot the Rollei 6008 AF with p20 back.  The reason is that I don't have too much experience with the other choices.    I ruled out the mamiya for the sync speed alone, and briefly held the contax 645 and H2 bodies but didn't really work through the files. Hardly any data to offer a comparison. When I first bought the Rollei I kind of hated it as I had focus problems which turned out to be easily resolved with a new focusing screen (well the AF still is stinky but all the MF camera's AF is slow like a screaming Volkswagen bus).  I put it for sale but no one wanted it and I kept using it, and the more I used it the more I started to get it and the more I liked it.   Now I love it.  The files keep impressing me and the glass is very very good.  I'm sure there is a learning curve to all these different camera's, backs, and RAW conversion software.  

I now have the 110mm f/2.0, and the 90mm APO macro, and the 80mm AF f/2.8 lens.  These are incredible optics each with a different character.  I plan to add the 180mm f/2.8 and something on the wide side.

I do think about the upgrade path and also service for the Rollei.  It's not a dead end, but I don't think the financial incentives to upgrade are there like they are for other systems/combinations so an upgrade will be more expensive.  It doesn't seem like the Hy6 is going to give me much over the 6008 other than more data in the exif and better battery life so I'm not worried if they don't offer me a chance to upgrade. Occasionally I wish for more pixels but I think this is just greed.  The 16mp file from the P20 is probably enough for most work.  

Anyhow, I don't know what other kinds of MFDB systems you can get for $9k that will offer you this performance.  If you are willing to spend a bit more then a lot of options open up. There are two BIN Rollei digital bundles on ebay right now.

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 12:51:59 am by EricWHiss »
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