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Author Topic: Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs  (Read 107864 times)

eronald

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #200 on: December 29, 2007, 08:42:30 am »

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Ray just one observation I have to say looking at your picture: looks very digital
If you still keep on pixel counting and what a 35mm can do in extremes situations youll'never face the real issue of 35mm: it's not at the same level of MFDB in 3D effect, colour fidelity, very good wide angles etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray, actually with an MF back the extreme shadows would have more detail. That is one of the unexpected benefits of the format compared to my previous Canon equipment, if you want I'll document it with some images. Whether it's worth dragging MF or even EOS-1 around is another question, frankly if my Leica worked reliably I'd consider it a much better candidate for travel images.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 08:43:05 am by eronald »
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Anders_HK

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #201 on: December 29, 2007, 08:49:46 am »

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Would you be able to take the following shot with an MFDB, for example?
[attachment=4457:attachment]  [attachment=4458:attachment]  [attachment=4459:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163799\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray,

Coincidentally I am just back from photographing in Angkor Wat over Christmas, arriving back early last Wednesday morning after three days waking up at 4.30 am for early morning light.

No I could not have taken that shot, because different season. So what? My Mamiya 24mm fisheye was awesome in Angkor though...    

Let me tell you, this was my second time there. First time was with a crappy D200 that I did not like (yes, I know other people like and rave of that cropped one, not me). Now I had ZD and Mamiya 7ii with Velvia and Astia and honest much better enjoyed my time. Medium format unlike DSLR has brought back a joy to photography for me. It is not about gear, but about seeing and better image quality.

I honest find arguing between crop sensor DSLR and FF as lame as between DSLR and MF. Horses are for courses and it is individual what we enjoy. If you cannot see the differences and enjoy what you have, just be happy!

How many pages in this thread now???? Enough.  

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 09:05:30 am by Anders_HK »
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John Sheehy

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #202 on: December 29, 2007, 09:06:13 am »

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The calculation is also off I'm afraid.
A 15mm on 35mm is about equal to a 30mm on a MFDB (roughly).
But than as mentioned before it's not comparable because of a totally different FOV and DOF.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A double-FF MFDB is 48*36; a FF "35mm" is 36*24.

The diagonals are  60 and 43.3, a ratio of 1.39:1, or 21mm for a 15mm equivalent.

The short sides are 36:24, or 1.5:1, or 22.5mm for a 15mm equivalent.

The long sides are 48:36 or 1.33:1, or 20mm for a 15mm equivalent.

None even close to 30mm.

Are many of the MFDBs greater than 48*36mm?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 10:35:26 am by John Sheehy »
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Snook

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #203 on: December 29, 2007, 10:19:45 am »

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Ray,

Coincidentally I am just back from photographing in Angkor Wat over Christmas, arriving back early last Wednesday morning after three days waking up at 4.30 am for early morning light.

No I could not have taken that shot, because different season. So what? My Mamiya 24mm fisheye was awesome in Angkor though...   

Let me tell you, this was my second time there. First time was with a crappy D200 that I did not like (yes, I know other people like and rave of that cropped one, not me). Now I had ZD and Mamiya 7ii with Velvia and Astia and honest much better enjoyed my time. Medium format unlike DSLR has brought back a joy to photography for me. It is not about gear, but about seeing and better image quality.

I honest find arguing between crop sensor DSLR and FF as lame as between DSLR and MF. Horses are for courses and it is individual what we enjoy. If you cannot see the differences and enjoy what you have, just be happy!

How many pages in this thread now???? Enough.   

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163822\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anders those are some really NICE shot's you have done there..
Congrats!!
One question. are those the Velvia or the ZD and did you do any post to them.. they look really great.
Snook
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #204 on: December 29, 2007, 10:25:03 am »

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Anders those are some really NICE shot's you have done there..
Congrats!!
One question. are those the Velvia or the ZD and did you do any post to them.. they look really great.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did I miss something or are the photos you are talking about the ones Ray posted taken with his subpar 5d and sigma lens?
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #205 on: December 29, 2007, 11:26:37 am »

Hummm, I missed the different aspect ratio.
Too fast

It's indeed app 22mm for 35mm
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 11:29:47 am by Frank Doorhof »
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Ray

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #206 on: December 29, 2007, 11:35:08 am »

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Ray just one observation I have to say looking at your picture: looks very digital

I don't see this as a problem. All digital images look digital to me including all the DB images presented in this thread. All film images also look film-like to me. The digital look is closer to reality in my view. I don't think the appearance of grain on surfaces that one knows are smooth (like a baby's bottom) add to a sense of reality, although it might be appropriate for a particular arty effect.

Your impression of a 'digital' effect might be due to slight oversharpening.

Quote
it's not at the same level of MFDB in 3D effect, colour fidelity, very good wide angles etc.

Getting an outstanding wide-angle lens for Canon cameras seems to be a problem but not so much of a problem if one is prepared to spend the sort of money that a modern Digitar lens costs.

Color fidelity is not really a problem for me. If it was, I'd calibrate my cameras in ACR with a Gretag McBeth chart. I don't get many assignments to produce Dulux Paint color charts   .

The 3-D effect seems to me to be largely created by light and shade, shallow DoF and sharp lenses. There's a thriving art industry in Chiang Mai that specialises in improving the photograph. Any night of the week you can see dozens of artists in the Night Bazaar, studiously copying photos with charcoal pen and brush, exaggerating the qualities that contibute to an enhanced 3-D effect.
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Ray

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« Reply #207 on: December 29, 2007, 12:14:25 pm »

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Ray, actually with an MF back the extreme shadows would have more detail. That is one of the unexpected benefits of the format compared to my previous Canon equipment, if you want I'll document it with some images. Whether it's worth dragging MF or even EOS-1 around is another question, frankly if my Leica worked reliably I'd consider it a much better candidate for travel images.

Edmund
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Edmund,
Yes, I would expect a DB to give me more detail in those shadows and less noise.

However, with a static subject like that, shadow detail does not have to be a problem. One can bracket exposure or use fill flash. I think I might have bracketed exposures with that shot but just used one of the shots for this quick demonstration processed on my laptop. I came across the image on my LaCie 100GB pocket hard drive which I'd used on my previous trip to Angkor Wat over a year ago. I haven't yet deleted the images on that drive. I picked up a second 200GB pocket drive for this trip. When I've filled that I'll start deleting the images on the other drive.
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Marsupilami

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #208 on: December 29, 2007, 12:41:25 pm »

There are in my opinion two more reasons to buy a MF Back. If you have to deal with art directors or customers directly (at the shoot) it is always good to have the best equipment on the planet. It is certainly most of the time possible to make similar shots with cheaper equipment, but it is always better to have a better camera than the daughter of the art director so to speak. Yes this is about prestige, about the same thing why bank manager drive big cars. (a small car would bring them from A to B also, but...). Second, if you have big companys for your customers you will hopefully get also paided accordingly. So you have a good income - it is not wise to sit on the money and pay premium tax, investing in your photo business is better I think so a MF Back might be a wise investment. So for me this would be two more good reasons to buy a MF back, apart from the better quality you can  get. As mentioned earlier this depends on your motivs. A sport photographer wont be happy with MF (horses for courses).
In this discussion I found some intersting parts. The danger is, that a non pro to often gets the impression that a MF Back will make him a better photographer. While the camera influences the outcome a good picture is a good picture no matter what camera was used. For myself the only MF camera which would change my kind of work in a positive way would be something like a digital mamiya 645 with waist level finder  (I worked with that camera a lot) as the waist level finder forced me to a slower approach and therefore better composition (nature and travel) But to take 30 K equipment on journeys to chile or namibia plus a digital SLR for wildlife/fast shooting - for me too heavy and too much money to burn. And also even my Canon L lenses sometimes have to be calibrated after a rough journey, I dont know if a MF is better or worse in regard of durability out in the field (at least Hasselblad H I find too big, too heavy and reports of lenses falling apart do exist). But certainly give me a cheap lightweight MF digital system and I buy it immediatly (I know I am dreamin). Thats the bad part of digital MF. MF with film was also possible for amateurs, as the cameras were not too expensive and the film costs were as high as you did want them. But if you are seeking the ultimate quality in landscape shots, there is still large format with cameras like Toyo field or similar. Cheap equipment compared to MF digital, movements, superb quality but cumbersome to use. While some people try to defend their SLR cameras I simply say what is often the simple truth: I can not afford a digital MF So I have to do with my Canon Gear with some curses about the wide angle lenses and try to make the best out of it.

Happy New Year and keep on shooting !

Christian

[attachment=4460:attachment]
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bcroslin

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #209 on: December 29, 2007, 03:53:12 pm »

Here's a 1Ds MKIII file from my little back yard testing studio. I'm very happy with how good it looks. Highlights and resolution are very close (but obviously not equal) to my Aptus 22.

http://www.bobcroslin.com/1ds.html

Have a happy new year everyone.
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Mike Chini

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« Reply #210 on: December 29, 2007, 04:47:52 pm »

I actually prefer MF for probably the least important part - the aspect ratio and larger viewfinders.  I much MUCH prefer the 4:3 ratio and find my compositions are spot on with MF and a lot of PITA work with 35 (when cropping).  I also work slower and seem to focus more with MF.  So I guess it's not just an IQ issue for me although with MF, I also feel like in an emergency, I can crop, pull shadows etc. so there's an additional comfort level.  Really though, how long has this thread been going???
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rainer_v

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #211 on: December 29, 2007, 06:13:18 pm »

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Here's a 1Ds MKIII file from my little back yard testing studio. I'm very happy with how good it looks. Highlights and resolution are very close (but obviously not equal) to my Aptus 22.

http://www.bobcroslin.com/1ds.html

Have a happy new year everyone.
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thanks for the cr2 file. looks very good.
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Snook

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #212 on: December 29, 2007, 07:54:31 pm »

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thanks for the cr2 file. looks very good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What you guys using to open the 1DsMIII file?
Thanks
Snook
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bcroslin

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« Reply #213 on: December 29, 2007, 08:04:40 pm »

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What you guys using to open the 1DsMIII file?

DPP opens them and does a great job with the conversions.

btw - forgot to mention that I shot the test image with a 70-200 f4 at 70mm. I'm finding that the lenses are definitely the weak link. My 24-70 had to be dialed to -3 in the focus adjustment to get a sharp image.

Definitely has me wondering what Zeiss glass would do on the 1Ds MKIII.
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Ray

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #214 on: December 30, 2007, 04:18:22 am »

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Edmund,
Yes, I would expect a DB to give me more detail in those shadows and less noise.

However, with a static subject like that, shadow detail does not have to be a problem. One can bracket exposure or use fill flash. I think I might have bracketed exposures with that shot but just used one of the shots for this quick demonstration processed on my laptop. I came across the image on my LaCie 100GB pocket hard drive which I'd used on my previous trip to Angkor Wat over a year ago. I haven't yet deleted the images on that drive. I picked up a second 200GB pocket drive for this trip. When I've filled that I'll start deleting the images on the other drive.
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Yes! I did bracket the shot. The scene above (Ta Prohm) was 0.8 secs at f16. Below is a 100% crop of the same area from a 2 sec exposure of the same scene, plus a 200% crop of an area in shadow which has been lightened.

I've also got another shot at 3.2 sec exposure showing more shadow detail, but some idiot walked right across that area in shade at the far end of the scene, right in the middle of the exposure.

This 200% crop viewed on my laptop set to a resolution of 1280x800, is representative of a print approximately 6ft x 4ft, far bigger than I'm capable of printing. My printer is the 24" wide Epson 7600.

Now this 200% crop is understandably a bit blurry. However, if I were printing the image this size, I think GF or some of the interpolation algorithms in Qimage would do a better job. I quite like the slight painterly effect that GF produces.

[attachment=4491:attachment]  [attachment=4492:attachment]
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Andy M

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« Reply #215 on: December 30, 2007, 04:33:09 am »

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http://www.bobcroslin.com/1ds.html

Wow! That file even made my Mac Pro chug

Thanks for posting
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Ray

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« Reply #216 on: December 30, 2007, 06:29:10 am »

Bob,
Does your 1Ds3 image look underexposed in DPP?

I'm getting the impression from ACR it could take as much as an additional stop of exposure for a full ETTR.

[attachment=4493:attachment]
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eronald

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« Reply #217 on: December 30, 2007, 10:37:02 am »

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Wow! That file even made my Mac Pro chug

Thanks for posting
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163999\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hehe, my P45+ makes me wish for a faster notebook computer.

Edmund
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #218 on: December 30, 2007, 11:45:43 am »

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Bob,
Does your 1Ds3 image look underexposed in DPP?
[attachment=4493:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Out of the ~14,256 RAW levels available in the RAW, only the quarter's specular highlights and a couple little spots here and there make it into the the top 1.67 stops.

Max is 7284, and there is very little above 4300.  IOW, this could have been exposed a stop more without losing specular highlights, or a 1.67 stops more with only some speculars lost (but not in the blue channel, so a good converter could have reconstructed them).

Judging by the grey card (combined with Canon's tendency to have 1.2x - 1.25x the stated ISO), however, I would say that it is properly metered for true ISO 100, so one stop ETTR would have been a true ISO 50, and 1.66 stops of ETTR would result in a true ISO 32.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 02:00:56 pm by John Sheehy »
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jjj

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #219 on: December 30, 2007, 07:00:44 pm »

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That certainly seems to be an advantage. I think the 1Ds3 has a maximum of 1/250 flash sync.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does no-one read manuals or brouchures as it's been possible to shoot at higher shutter speeds with Canons + Nikons for years now? As long as you have a compatible flash.

Here's a link for those who want to know how to use their cameras at higher sync speeds
[a href=\"http://www.rpphoto.com/howto/view.asp?articleID=1026]http://www.rpphoto.com/howto/view.asp?articleID=1026[/url]
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