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Author Topic: Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.  (Read 12264 times)

bjanes

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Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2007, 10:43:53 pm »

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Can you say "fooled by noise reduction and/or different image magnifications"?  That's what often happens.
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Well, they did shoot raw files and rendered them in ACR with no NR. Perhaps the raw files really were not raw but they did avoid the trap of JPEGs with NR that can not be turned off and the involved photographers were hardly novices.
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John Camp

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Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2007, 12:17:08 am »

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Uh, no.  The 1Dsmk3 is the king of super-high-ISO, super low light.  All the declarations of the D3 having the lowest noise of any FF camera came about before the 1Dsmk3 was released.  The mk3 has less read noise per pixel, and almost twice as many of them.  The D3 can't touch it in extremely low light.

The only benefit the D3 may have over the 1Dsmk3 is slightly less image shot noise, but that may not even be true or significant.  I haven't measured the 1Dsmk3 shot noise yet.  The D3 has a 1/3 stop shot noise benefit over the 5D, but the 5D is not an especially efficient camera with photons.
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Of all the comparisons between the two cameras on the Internet, you are the only one to make this claim. Your findings are so extremely at odds with all the others, I would hesitate to accept yours without a fair sized mountain of proof.

Informally, there are tests here on the Luminous Landscape; and you'll notice in James Russell's essay about the Leica M8, he used the D3s for sports, and Canons for resolution. Others:

[a href=\"http://www.imagepower.de/IMAGES/imgEQUIPMENT/D3.htm]http://www.imagepower.de/IMAGES/imgEQUIPMENT/D3.htm[/url]
http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/200...troduction.html
//diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2007-12-blog.html#20071213Canon_vs_Nikon

JC
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Ray

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Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2007, 02:19:15 am »

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Of all the comparisons between the two cameras on the Internet, you are the only one to make this claim. Your findings are so extremely at odds with all the others, I would hesitate to accept yours without a fair sized mountain of proof.

Informally, there are tests here on the Luminous Landscape; and you'll notice in James Russell's essay about the Leica M8, he used the D3s for sports, and Canons for resolution. Others:

http://www.imagepower.de/IMAGES/imgEQUIPMENT/D3.htm
http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/200...troduction.html
//diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2007-12-blog.html#20071213Canon_vs_Nikon

JC
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I tend to agree with John Sheehy here. I sense a lot of hype with regard to the D3, and I'm rather suspicious of the objectivity of comparisons that don't take into consideration any differences of ISO sensitivity that might exist between cameras being compared.

I notice in the Photobusiness comparison between the D3 and 1Ds3, that you refer to above, the reviewer makes a big deal of an apparent fact that the 1Ds3 doesn't have an ISO 12,800 or 25,600 and claims he is therefore unable to show 1Ds2 images at these ISO settings to compare with the D3 images that he does show.

Well, of course he can, if he knows what he's doing. After making allowances for any discrepancies in ISO sensitivity between the 2 cameras, he can just underexpose, by an appropriate number of stops, the 1Ds3 at ISO 3200.
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John Camp

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Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2007, 12:51:49 pm »

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I tend to agree with John Sheehy here. I sense a lot of hype with regard to the D3, and I'm rather suspicious of the objectivity of comparisons that don't take into consideration any differences of ISO sensitivity that might exist between cameras being compared.

I notice in the Photobusiness comparison between the D3 and 1Ds3, that you refer to above, the reviewer makes a big deal of an apparent fact that the 1Ds3 doesn't have an ISO 12,800 or 25,600 and claims he is therefore unable to show 1Ds2 images at these ISO settings to compare with the D3 images that he does show.

Well, of course he can, if he knows what he's doing. After making allowances for any discrepancies in ISO sensitivity between the 2 cameras, he can just underexpose, by an appropriate number of stops, the 1Ds3 at ISO 3200.
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Of course there's a lot of hype connected to the D3. There's also a lot of hype connected to the Canons, to the Sonys, etc. What did you expect?

Picking out what you believe is a weakness from one of MANY comparisons on the net doesn't seem to me to obviate the others -- and the one you object to, if it were done the way you suggest, would draw objections from people who claim there is a difference from an in-camera boost vs. a post-processing boost. And I think the photo-business guy does know what he's talking about -- look at his credentials, Ray. The site is a little goofy, but he's having a good time.

Other than John Sheehy, look around on the net and find ANY credible source that says that the 1DsIII is better at high ISOs than the D3. I'll even give you a half-stop boost in the nominal Canon ISO. I think the D3 may be *three or four stops* better than than the 1DsIII -- that's why John Sheehy's claims seem so unusual. I'm not a Nikon fanboy (though I use Nikons) -- I don't think there's any question, as I said in my original post, that the 1DsIII out-resolves the Nikon given the same glass on each. They are different kinds of cameras; Nikon will catch up on resolution only when they come out with the rumored D3x, if that happens. And that camera will have poorer high-ISO than the D3, because high-ISO is what the D3 is made for. I think the Canon 5D has better ISO performance than the 1DsIII, to, and probably the 1D3, too, because high-ISO performance isn't what the 1DsIII is made for. It's made to challenge MF cameras, and generally to be used at ISO 800 or lower.

JC
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John Sheehy

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Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2007, 07:08:54 pm »

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It's made to challenge MF cameras, and generally to be used at ISO 800 or lower.
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What a camera is is what is relevant, not what some abstraction of what it is supposed to be is.  Regardless of what it is "supposed to be", the ISO 1600 pixel read noise of the 1DSmk3 is anywhere from slightly less to about the same as the D3 (variations in samples), and that is with the 1DSmk3 possibly being really ISO 1900 to 2000, and having 74.4% more pixels, which has an effect of reducing the image noise to 75%, relative to the full image of the lower-res camera.

The D3 captures about 6700 photons at RAW saturation at ISO 1600; the 1DSmk3 about 3750.  Even if both were truly ISO 1600 (in the sense that saturation occurs at the same exposure level), that means that in the area covered by each D3 pixel, the Canon collects about 3750*1.744 = 6540 photons, which is a tiny bit less than the D3 per unit of area.  So, image shot noise is about the same, and if the the Canon is really 1.2 to 1.25x the stated ISO, as they usually are, the Canon has less total shot noise.  This is the noise that runs all the way up into the midtones and highlights, the only significant noise in a well-exposed scene.  The quality of shot noise does not vary from camera to camera (as read noise can).  It is a property of, and, in fact the very fabric of light.  The photons captured is all that matters for shot noise, and this shot noise is a major determinant of DR for very conservative standards of DR (read noise dominates for more liberal standards).

Read noise is a little more complex.  Read noise is not always random in 2 dimensions; it often has components that are 1-dimensional, either horizontal or vertical.  In the case of these two cameras, banding noise is present but weak, mainly horizontal in the Canon and vertical in the D3 at high ISOs.  2-dimensional read noise in dominant in both of these cameras, in the specimens I've seen.

When is someone going to shoot the same scene, with the same lens, same distance, same Av and Tv values, complete with an out-of-focus color checker, including a pushed-to-ISO-100,000 or so shot, from both of these cameras, in addition to a well-exposed ISO 3200, and provide the RAWs so they can be processed *exactly* the same way in DCRAW, IRIS, or ImagesPlus?

This is the kind of thing that is needed to settle this issue of what the cameras are capturing once and for all, but no one wants to do something this straightforward and simple.  Instead, speculation on images processed with slight-of-hand NR tricks is what people seem to like doing.
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t.koetting

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Nikon D3 v. Canon 1Ds3: more useful test I.M.O.
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2007, 05:40:23 am »

John, would you please check your private messages? merci!
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