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Author Topic: B&W Files from Digital Backs  (Read 6550 times)

AndreNapier

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B&W Files from Digital Backs
« on: December 14, 2007, 03:49:18 pm »

We have talked so much recently about color that my head can not absorb any more info about it.
For refreshment I would like to hear how you guys are approaching B&W commercial projects.
Tell me your methodology for conversions, plug ins, work around, and most importantly how happy you are with your final results as compared to the old fashion film. Tell us if you convert to gray scale before processing raws or leave it color, desaturating and playing with temperature afterwords.
Which DB does the best job. I am finding myself shooting more and more B&W projects for various ads and I am quite happy with what I see but still not there yet where my exhibitions traditional prints are.

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Streetwise

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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2007, 04:52:42 pm »

Actually, the B&W conversion process has become a whole lot easier with the advent of Photoshop's "Black and White" filter. You can even apply it as an adjustment layer as well.

I used to be one that would just "convert to gray" and be happy with that. But once you use the Image/Adjustments/Black and White, you won't go back. Of course there are many other ways to convert (using lab, etc). But I prefer to leave the original alone. Here's a shot from last week. Use the Black and White adjustment, but applied mask to the rest.

Dave

[attachment=4253:attachment]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2007, 05:34:31 pm »

I still use Convert To B&W Pro, which is no longer being maintained by the author. I think you can still buy it though.
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jing q

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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 06:09:35 pm »

Quote
We have talked so much recently about color that my head can not absorb any more info about it.
For refreshment I would like to hear how you guys are approaching B&W commercial projects.
Tell me your methodology for conversions, plug ins, work around, and most importantly how happy you are with your final results as compared to the old fashion film. Tell us if you convert to gray scale before processing raws or leave it color, desaturating and playing with temperature afterwords.
Which DB does the best job. I am finding myself shooting more and more B&W projects for various ads and I am quite happy with what I see but still not there yet where my exhibitions traditional prints are.

Http://AndreNapier.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

unfortunately I still find the images pretty flat when converted to BW from my leaf...
just shot a cover with ilford delta 100 pushed nearly 3 stops...outstanding texture.
Exposure 2 from alienskin does a decent job though.saves a lot of hassle.
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AndreNapier

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B&W Files from Digital Backs
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 07:07:55 pm »

Delta 100 pushed two stops was my favorite film as well. Now days when I work B@W I open my favorite film processed image and process the digital file side by side on 30" screen. It helps tremendously as we tend to forget the real look. Exposure 2 is OK but by itself does not compare to results that I am looking for. The grain is not acceptable as it screams digital to me. Also it flattens the image a lot and that is the exact opposite to what I am looking for. Generally I never convert my images to grayscale. I desaturate them completely and adjust the temperature and color and process several versions of it and work them in different layers in PS. Than I generate few versions of grain and over impose them in layers.
Http://AndreNapier.com
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samuel_js

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B&W Files from Digital Backs
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 07:57:14 pm »

Wow... Ilford delta was my favorite too, with Kodak 125px. I agree is still difficult to achieve same effect with digital. I think C1 does a good job, but not too much control.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 07:58:58 pm by samuel_js »
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juicy

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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 08:06:43 pm »

Quote
Generally I never convert my images to grayscale. I desaturate them completely and adjust the temperature and color and process several versions of it and work them in different layers in PS. Than I generate few versions of grain and over impose them in layers.
Http://AndreNapier.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160741\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi!

I've been doing basically the same way, also sometimes I use the channel mixer in an adjustment layer (to mimic a color filter with B&W film). Quite often I aply some slight toning for the image. Some people use Lightroom for B&W conversion with good results.

How do you get the best grain? Noise + smal radius gaussian blur // repeate with different values? Or do you use scanned film grain?

Cheers,
J
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bradleygibson

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B&W Files from Digital Backs
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 08:20:15 pm »

Last summer, an article at diglloyd.com got me thinking about using the raw color data to create a black & white rendering directly from the P45+ sensor data.  I have been experimenting with the idea of processing the raw image data as if it were from a monochrome sensor (see July 27th entry titled "Monochrome vs color filter array (Bayer) sensor" at Lloyd Chamber's site).  The result yields a higher fidelity result than a standard color demosaiced image subsequently converted to black and white.

I have hit a roadblock in attempting to normalize the luminosity from the color channel data.   A brainy PhD colleague of mine (I'm no PhD!) has told me that he doesn't know how to solve the issue, so it may be the end of the road for that approach.

When converting from color images, I also use PS's Channel Mixer (or sometimes the B&W Filter as a convenience).  Bruce Fraser was an advocate of using the Calculations tool, but I have found that while the complexity increased, I did not get distinctly unique or interesting output (that was useful ).  Perhaps I'll have to experiment with it some more.

The first several images on my website are black & white, so you can see the results there.

-Brad
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 08:23:14 pm by bradleygibson »
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 08:27:50 pm »

If you're also looking to add realistic grain, I saw a product called RealGrain that seemed interesting.

No affiliation, and never tried it so I can't even vouch for it.  But they seem to have sampled actual film to apply realistic look to digital images.

http://www.imagenomic.com/rg.aspx?f=fm

-Brad
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jing q

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B&W Files from Digital Backs
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 10:52:06 pm »

Quote
Delta 100 pushed two stops was my favorite film as well. Now days when I work B@W I open my favorite film processed image and process the digital file side by side on 30" screen. It helps tremendously as we tend to forget the real look. Exposure 2 is OK but by itself does not compare to results that I am looking for. The grain is not acceptable as it screams digital to me. Also it flattens the image a lot and that is the exact opposite to what I am looking for. Generally I never convert my images to grayscale. I desaturate them completely and adjust the temperature and color and process several versions of it and work them in different layers in PS. Than I generate few versions of grain and over impose them in layers.
Http://AndreNapier.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160741\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

channel mixer really helps to get the right feel in terms of contrast but I've yet to see the grain dealt with properly...
the great thing about exposure2 is that they've given you the option to selectively adjust the spread of grain in the highlights, midtones and shadows (I had suggested that to the creator...but i'm sure other people had made such a suggestion too)
Until I see a software that specifically works on giving a more controllable spread of grain and texture of grain, I doubt we'll be seeing much in the way of getting some of that lovely BW film look...

ironic that Realgrain's samples don't show anything new about their grain capabilities...seems like more for getting the colour looks of previous films

the files below are from ilford delta 100 pushed 2.5 pushes and then contrast adjusted in photoshop...
love the way the fuzziness of the shadow edges blend together with the highlights
 

 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 10:56:56 pm by jing q »
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juicy

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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 07:18:53 am »

Quote
If you're also looking to add realistic grain, I saw a product called RealGrain that seemed interesting.

No affiliation, and never tried it so I can't even vouch for it.  But they seem to have sampled actual film to apply realistic look to digital images.

http://www.imagenomic.com/rg.aspx?f=fm

-Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks, have to check that out.
Another thought, maybe using very textured rag paper does the trick.

Cheers,
J
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eronald

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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 08:44:08 am »

I have some B&W profiles, which I cooked up for private use, the advantage is that I can preview the effects directly in C1 while adjusting the image.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 08:45:02 am by eronald »
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BlasR

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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 10:53:42 am »

Edmund,


How I can get the profiles?

Thanks

BlasR



Quote
I have some B&W profiles, which I cooked up for private use, the advantage is that I can preview the effects directly in C1 while adjusting the image.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dustbak

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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 11:12:37 am »

I use a multitude of tools.

The B&W filter in PS where I adjust colors until I have the desired result.
Alien Skin Exposure.
White layer on color on top of the image.

First I make the image BW according taste after that I normally start adding grain in everything that is not highlight (select highlights and invert selection).

I don't do B&W with the raw file, I set the WB as good as possible and treat the image as a color image. The whole B&W process takes place in PS.

I find the B&W filter in PS much better than the channel mixer and much easier/faster to use.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 11:21:04 am by Dustbak »
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John_Black

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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2007, 01:19:25 pm »

I do not add any grain (in Photoshop) until the image has its final print size set.  Grain that looks good on the original image at its native size may look to over-the-top if the image is down sized for print.  So, like sharpening I add the grain as a final step prior to printing.  Also, I sharpen image before adding grain - no reason to sharpen pseudo noise.
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eronald

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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2007, 03:33:55 pm »

Quote
Edmund,
How I can get the profiles?

Thanks

BlasR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160848\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You ask nicely, and you promise to pay if you like them.

Edmund
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BlasR

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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2007, 07:05:12 pm »

Edmund,

Just tell me how much,

I will pay first

I do not need to promise, because, my word is better them promise.

Some people from here got some profiles from you, and they love it.
I'm  sure I will like it.

Thank you

BlasR
 


Quote
You ask nicely, and you promise to pay if you like them.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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