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Author Topic: Canon 5D dynamic range tests  (Read 22668 times)

Sean H

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Canon 5D dynamic range tests
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2007, 08:46:37 pm »

It is great that you are around to answer these questions. But I have to say Jonathan, you must have stamina because it would drive me crazy. What's more, no one seems to appreciate your wit.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 5D dynamic range tests
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2007, 09:02:44 pm »

I'm currently at Walter Reed Army Medical Center getting medical treatment for some neurological problems, so I have more free time than I normally do, and not a lot of stuff to occupy it. The blog in my signature has more details if you feel so inclined...
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Sean H

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Canon 5D dynamic range tests
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2007, 11:28:39 pm »

Quote
I'm currently at Walter Reed Army Medical Center getting medical treatment for some neurological problems, so I have more free time than I normally do, and not a lot of stuff to occupy it. The blog in my signature has more details if you feel so inclined...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I read it and PM'd you (fyi).
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Ray

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Canon 5D dynamic range tests
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2007, 01:41:39 am »

Having read the recent postings in this thread, I still can't grasp Jonathan's concept here.

I can see a reason for carrying out the test in the manner he suggests in order to obtain specific information about individual pixel performance. I've always found it curious that the larger pixels of the 1Ds seemed to exhibit more noise than the smaller pixels in the D60. However, because the 1Ds was a later model, high ISO performance was better than the D60, just as the next model, the 10D, had even better high ISO performance, a trend which was continued with the 20D.

But at ISO 100, the D60 apparently has less noise than the 1Ds. Does this mean that at ISO 100 and at the pixel level this 6mp, cropped format D60 has slightly more dynamic range than the 1Ds?

I don't know, but one way to find out would be to shoot Jonathan's target in the manner he suggests, with both cameras. But my reasoning tells me that, just as the total image noise in a 1Ds image is less than in a D60 image, the dynamic range of the 1Ds image might also be slightly greater.

We should not forget that an artificial target like the one designed by Jonathan is still essentially a real world image. We like to make a distinction between test charts and real world scenes. But they are of course both real world scenes.

The large B&W text in Jonathan's 'Dynamic Range Test Chart' would be quite analagous to some large B&W text on a bill board in any street scene in a city or on the highway. It would be the last detail to become unrecognisable with extreme underexposure. The smaller and fainter numbers in the centre of the chart are analagous to any fine and low contrast detail in any so-called real scene and such detail would be the first to become unrecognisable with extreme underexposure.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2007, 10:18:01 am »

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Having read the recent postings in this thread, I still can't grasp Jonathan's concept here.

Let me start from the beginning with the foundational equation:
(Image quality) = (pixel quality) * (pixel quantity).

Lets start with pixel quality, since that is the hardest to define. Pixel quality can range from 0 to 1. Quality 0 is visually meaningless image data such as pure noise, gross blur, etc, with a signal/noise ratio of 0. No matter how many quality 0 pixels you have, you cannot discern a meaingful image from them.

Quality 1 is perfect; each pixel is as good as it can possibly be with regards to detail, resolution, etc. If you take a MFDB capure made at base ISO with optimal exposure, focus, lighting, and post-processing, and size that image down to an 800-pixel TIFF, the resulting pixels will have a quality level very close to 1, perhaps 0.997 or something like that.

If you look at the images in this ZIP file, you can see a demonstration of this. The first image (0) has a pixel quality very close to 1; it was downsized from an image 8x larger in linear dimensions, so each of its pixels are derived from 64 source image pixels. The number of pixels is the only thing limiting the quality of this image.

Image 2, in contrast, has 4x the pixel count of image 0, but overall resolution and detail are practically identical. The noise level is such that pixel quality is ~0.25, or 1/4. Since the pixel quality of this image is 1/4 that of image 0, it needs 4x as many pixels to match the overall image quality.

Image 4 continues the progression. It has 16x the pixel count of image 0, but double the noise level of image 2, so it has the same overall image quality as both 0 and 2. So it has a pixel quality of ~0.0625, or 1/16.

And then there's image 8. It has 64x the pixel count of image 0, and twice the noise of image 4, so again it has the same overall image quality. So pixel quality is ~0.015625, or 1/64.

Different individuals' tastes will come into play at this point, but once pixel quality gets down to about 0.25 or so, the noise or whatever other image artifacts are causing that quality loss starts being noticeable in decent-sized prints ("decent-sized" meaning one sends the full-resolution file to the printer and the resulting PPI is <300-360). So if noise/grain is not part of your creative vision, and you want to be able to make decent-sized prints of your work, then you need to maintain a pixel quality of ~0.25 or greater.

If the above conditions apply to you, then measuring DR with any methodology that nets a pixel quality <0.25 is invalid for you. Measuring DR using the B&W text as your reference, or shooting the chart full-frame (or worse, both!) will measure DR at a pixel quality level far below 1/64 (0.015625) and the noise levels will be intolerable for real-world images. If you were to shoot a portrait for a paying client with the noise level present in the underexposed shot you posted at the beginning of this thread, do you think the client would be pleased? Would you even be able to recognize the client's face? I doubt it, on both counts. So does that test correlate meaningfully to real-world shooting conditions? No. In contrast, if you were to reshoot the test as I specified, composed with the center square 100 pixels wide, if you choose the resulting frame that most closely matches image 2 in the ZIP file, the noise level you'll find in the image overall would be acceptable to most people, even when printed "decent-sized".

I recognize that not everyone has the same noise tolerance, which is why I put various sizes of text in the chart. Each successively larger line of text corresponds to an additional 1/2-stop of noise, so if you like lots of noise in your images, use the third-smallest line of text instead of the smallest for your legibility threshold, and you'll get a DR reading that is 1 stop greater than if you were to use the smallest line. If that methodology works for you and your style, great, but at least there is a common baseline for comparison for someone with a more stringent noise tolerance than you, and both of you have something to work with that accurately reflects the results you get shooting in real-world situations.

Using the legibility test of the lines of text in the quadrants as a guide (center square 100 pixels wide), the approximate corresponding pixel quality values start at 1/4 for the smallest line of text, and for each successively larger line, pixel quality is divided by 2. When conducting the test, have other elements on the composition so you can evaluate what pixel quality level is the minimum you or your clients will accept. If you decide that your minimum acceptable pixel quality level is 1/8 instead of 1/4 based on pixel peeping at 100% or printing the test images "decent sized", there is nothing wrong with that. As long as you include that in your result, then I can easily correlate that to my work and tastes, and have a good idea if your camera is suitable for my purposes. At least there is a standardized methodology involved so that the results achieved by different testers with different preferences can be meaningfully compared.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:25:35 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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