z3100 current status of roller marks?

[stevenh]

i understand, thanks anyway denis.

my field tech and i noticed that the marks actually start about 2 or three inches after the leading edge of the paper.  i measured that distance with a caliper and they are exactly the distance it takes for the leading edge to reach the rollers and starwheels so any inked section that was laid down at the start and before the leading edge of the paper reaches the star wheels is fine (no marks or water mark looking streaks).  they are spaced exactly the distance horizontally between each roller as well.

hopefully barcelona will communicate in no uncertain terms with hp u.s. i have sent the url for this thread and some of the others to my field tech at hp for his aid.

that said,  i do want to mention that i really like this printer. i had to only epsons before this printer. the range and curve of color and value is exceptional. the APS option extends my control in the low shadows and still allows an extension of the high end details. it was the delicacy of detail and range of the high end values that impressed me. that is important to my work, at least in my eyes.
 unfortunately some of my work is on the premium gloss from hp which begins to imitate the glow of cibachrome (ilfochrome) and appears to extend the dynamic range of ciba. it is primarily that type of paper which is showing these marks.

I'm affraid I don't have any part number, they were prototypes installed by an engineer from barcelona.
They're brownish and soft but I can't even say if that's the color of the production ones.

denis
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[deanwork]

Find out that guys name and send him the pdf of the photographs that were posted on this site of the new red rollers.

It is my hunch that HP is quickly working on their own paper  so they don't have to go in there and replace all these components. The US market is pretty big.

At any rate I'm not that worried in the long term but in the short term it is kind of silly what they are doing.

Does anyone know the guy Ben Wolf? He is the US  HP Z target guy and has posted a response to  early comments about the Z. Here is his email. If we all write him maybe we can get a straight answer as to why our European friends are being so well taken care of.

Here is his post: Ben Wolf Says:
December 6, 2007 at 10:17 am

To those of you who have outlined support issues on your Z series printer: my name is Ben Wolf and I am the product manager for the Z2100 and Z3100 series in the US. Let me personally apologize to anyone who has received a poor support experience from HP. I encourage anyone who has received an unsatisfactory result or had frustration with our support process to please contact me directly at ben.wolf@hp.com and I will ensure your problems are addressed.

I take customer satisfaction on our products very seriously. This is not corporate lip service: every customer is important to me, and if you are not satisfied, I will personally get involved to resolve whatever issues you may be having.

Regards,

Ben Wolf
Creative Segment Mgr







When I told him that I had seen photographs of the new rollers on the Internet, he said that they couldn't have been a HP design, as HP is not working on new rollers for the Z3100.

Mary
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[/quote]

[stevenh]

ron, i have forwarded the doc you posted to my field tech. it does certainly clarify terms and the problem. i have a feeling that brian (my field tech) will find it interesting.

John- I think we are in agreement about the political side of this issue.
Regarding the new rollers, he showed me a dozen or so challenging stocks he had printed on, with no marks on anything.  Very encouraging to see.
stevenh-  Here's the document.  Don't laugh when you see it.  Many months ago I was sent another unofficial document from HP about oiling the printer that was also surprisingly crude.  The part about the cap of a pen is seat of the pants engineering at it's finest.
-Ron H.
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[Jim Cole]

Thanks to John for the Ben Wolf connection. I emailed him this morning and received the following response in just a couple of hours:

Jim-
 
I am currently working on the forecast and supply chain for this fix to the product, but do not yet have all the details; this is why I have refrained from responding to the post directly.  In addition, the field support process is not functioning the way it should, to put it mildly.
 
I am indeed working on resolving the issues around support and will be able to give you a clear answer by the end of the week.
 
Regards,
 
Ben

[Colorwave]

Thanks to John for the Ben Wolf connection. I emailed him this morning and received the following response in just a couple of hours:

Jim-
I am indeed working on resolving the issues around support and will be able to give you a clear answer by the end of the week.
 
Regards,
 
Ben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nice work, everybody.  Perhaps we will see results, or at least accelerated results, from the efforts of the group at large.
-Ron H.

[stevenh]

definitely thanks to john.  i also emailed Mr. Wolf late this am.  no word yet but at least he has another polite respectful letter.

steve

Thanks to John for the Ben Wolf connection. I emailed him this morning and received the following response in just a couple of hours:

Jim-
 
I am currently working on the forecast and supply chain for this fix to the product, but do not yet have all the details; this is why I have refrained from responding to the post directly.  In addition, the field support process is not functioning the way it should, to put it mildly.
 
I am indeed working on resolving the issues around support and will be able to give you a clear answer by the end of the week.
 
Regards,
 
Ben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[deanwork]

He is a good guy and I hope they appreciate him over at corporate. I never met ANYONE from Epson or Kodak like that. One straight talking person can make all the difference.

I think I'll order my Z tomorrow.

j

definitely thanks to john.  i also emailed Mr. Wolf late this am.  no word yet but at least he has another polite respectful letter.

steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Jim Cole]

Latest Update...

Got home a few minutes ago and had a call from Andy at HP Tech Support who said that that I had the newly designed rollers and new star-wheel assembly being shiiped to me and that they would be here on Monday. Five minutes later Roger the field tech that had been here before with the wrong parts, called and said that he had escalated my issue all the way to the top and he got results. He happened to be at a training session with the head tech guys and they listened to him. He wanted me to know that there parts are still "beta" and I, along with a few others, are being considered test cases. If they need to redesign again...they will.

Here's the scoop:

1) New rollers - Only 20 sets available right now. These are the brown softer ones.

2) New star-wheel assembly with redesigned wheels and an additional manual adjustment mechanism that hopefully will allow for extreme cases of star-wheel marks. As far as the new motor I discussed in a previous thread, it turns out that the motor is already in the printer, so that was misinformation. The motor already lifts the staar-wheel asembly at loading and again at the end of the paper feed when the pressure is not needed because no printing is taking place.

Looks like Roger may not get up here to Flagstaff until Tuesday or so for the install, so I will keep everyone posted.

HP (outside of internal communications) is doing an amazing job on addressing issues with this printer. I've never heard of a large format printer manufacturer updating it's user base to deal with new papers that didn't exist when the printer was designed. As a reminder, I have only experienced roller marks on the new Baryta papers. No issues at all with Epson, HP or other fine art or RC papers.

In another thread on this subject, Neil Snape referred to Barcelona working on both rollers and star-wheels. Here's the proof!

Jim

[deanwork]

Good job Jim. I just ordered my printer yesterday so I'm very interested in having this resolved sooner than later. The squeaky roller gets the grease apparently. Someone said the Ilford Gold Fiber gloss papers is actually working on the Z now without marks?... anyone have info about that?


john

Latest Update...

Got home a few minutes ago and had a call from Andy at HP Tech Support who said that that I had the newly designed rollers and new star-wheel assembly being shiiped to me and that they would be here on Monday. Five minutes later Roger the field tech that had been here before with the wrong parts, called and said that he had escalated my issue all the way to the top and he got results. He happened to be at a training session with the head tech guys and they listened to him. He wanted me to know that there parts are still "beta" and I, along with a few others, are being considered test cases. If they need to redesign again...they will.

Here's the scoop:

1) New rollers - Only 20 sets available right now. These are the brown softer ones.

2) New star-wheel assembly with redesigned wheels and an additional manual adjustment mechanism that hopefully will allow for extreme cases of star-wheel marks. As far as the new motor I discussed in a previous thread, it turns out that the motor is already in the printer, so that was misinformation. The motor already lifts the staar-wheel asembly at loading and again at the end of the paper feed when the pressure is not needed because no printing is taking place.

Looks like Roger may not get up here to Flagstaff until Tuesday or so for the install, so I will keep everyone posted.

HP (outside of internal communications) is doing an amazing job on addressing issues with this printer. I've never heard of a large format printer manufacturer updating it's user base to deal with new papers that didn't exist when the printer was designed. As a reminder, I have only experienced roller marks on the new Baryta papers. No issues at all with Epson, HP or other fine art or RC papers.

In another thread on this subject, Neil Snape referred to Barcelona working on both rollers and star-wheels. Here's the proof!

Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Jim Cole]

Update...02/05/08

Roger, my HP Tech showed up today to do the install of the new tan pinch rollers and the new starwheel assembly. The parts showed up on Monday as promised by HP.

It took about 1 1/2 hours for the conversion. Most of the time was spent replacing those tiny rollers.

I have only had a chance to run one test print on the Harman Gloss FB Al that was the problem paper for me. The good news is that the roller marks so prevalent with the old rollers are now completely absent. I'm sure, even though I have not tested any other Baryta papers, the results will be the same for all. I have never had roller marks on any other RC or fine art rag paper.

I will run some more test prints on this paper in the next couple of days.

The new star-wheel assembly has a black plastic insert at each end that when pulled out raises the assembly a couple of mm. According to Roger, this is designed for worst case scenarios. The springs on the star-wheels themselves have also been redesigned again to lower the pressure on the surface of the paper.

All in all an excellent response from the HP team! Kudos. Remember that both of these updates are in "beta" testing so they will not be available for everyone who needs/wants them for a little while longer. Currently, there are only about 20 or so sets of these rollers in the US.

If I see any different results in the near future than I just reported, I will be sure to do a follow up post.

Jim

[Geoff Wittig]

Update...02/05/08
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Great news! I'd sign up for the upgrade to the new rollers & starwheels when they're available.

[deanwork]

I guess we can also think Mr. Wolf for getting this going in the US. I'm really looking forward to the possibilities.  There are some reports that the Ilford Gold is working in the Z. Has anyone tried it?  My printer isn't here yet.

john

Update...02/05/08

Roger, my HP Tech showed up today to do the install of the new tan pinch rollers and the new starwheel assembly. The parts showed up on Monday as promised by HP.

It took about 1 1/2 hours for the conversion. Most of the time was spent replacing those tiny rollers.

I have only had a chance to run one test print on the Harman Gloss FB Al that was the problem paper for me. The good news is that the roller marks so prevalent with the old rollers are now completely absent. I'm sure, even though I have not tested any other Baryta papers, the results will be the same for all. I have never had roller marks on any other RC or fine art rag paper.

I will run some more test prints on this paper in the next couple of days.

The new star-wheel assembly has a black plastic insert at each end that when pulled out raises the assembly a couple of mm. According to Roger, this is designed for worst case scenarios. The springs on the star-wheels themselves have also been redesigned again to lower the pressure on the surface of the paper.

All in all an excellent response from the HP team! Kudos. Remember that both of these updates are in "beta" testing so they will not be available for everyone who needs/wants them for a little while longer. Currently, there are only about 20 or so sets of these rollers in the US.

If I see any different results in the near future than I just reported, I will be sure to do a follow up post.

Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[johncustodio]

Good job Jim. I just ordered my printer yesterday so I'm very interested in having this resolved sooner than later. The squeaky roller gets the grease apparently. Someone said the Ilford Gold Fiber gloss papers is actually working on the Z now without marks?... anyone have info about that?
john
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John-

I'm using Ilford Gold Fiber Silk on my Z3100 with no roller marks. But my machine seems to handle most papers without roller marks. I've never seen any roller marks on any papers (including HP RC papers, Innova Semi-matte, Crane Silver Rag, Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Pearl). The only paper I get roller marks on is Epson Exhibition Fiber.

-John

[deanwork]

Wow. That was fast. Its strange I just found your website and was just in the process of emailing you about this very issue. Tyler Boley gave me your name.

That's interesting you have such good results! I have a job that has to go to a major musuem and they would like to do it on a fiber gloss with the Z for long term stability. I'll give it a shot.

john

John-

I'm using Ilford Gold Fiber Silk on my Z3100 with no roller marks. But my machine seems to handle most papers without roller marks. I've never seen any roller marks on any papers (including HP RC papers, Innova Semi-matte, Crane Silver Rag, Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Pearl). The only paper I get roller marks on is Epson Exhibition Fiber.

-John
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[Jim Cole]

Another Update - Bad News

The initial apparent success with the new rollers was short lived. Using the Harman Gloss FB Al paper, and after calibrating and re-profiling with APS using the "Fine Art Pearl - Less Ink" preset and finally setting the print driver to use double passes during printing to slow down the movement of the paper through the printer, pinch roller marks are still visible, especially on darker areas of the prints. The initial calibration target that I printed while the tech was here seemed mark free, but they were just hard to see. In the real world prints and on the profile target prints the marks are a bit more visible.

They are not as bad as with the old rollers, but still there and visible enough to prevent selling prints on this paper. I do not now or have ever had roller issues using my primary papers HP professional Satin and HP Smooth Fine Art. It's a shame since these new Baryta papers have an outstanding presentation for color and black and white work. I keep the print room at 35% humidity and about 60-70 degrees F so I do not think it is an environmental issue. Maybe on the next engineering go-around...

Jim

[William Morse]

Hey Jim- disapointing, as I am getting my new rollers next week. Have you tried increasing the drying time even more?

Bill

Another Update - Bad News

The initial apparent success with the new rollers was short lived. Using the Harman Gloss FB Al paper, and after calibrating and re-profiling with APS using the "Fine Art Pearl - Less Ink" preset and finally setting the print driver to use double passes during printing to slow down the movement of the paper through the printer, pinch roller marks are still visible, especially on darker areas of the prints. The initial calibration target that I printed while the tech was here seemed mark free, but they were just hard to see. In the real world prints and on the profile target prints the marks are a bit more visible.

They are not as bad as with the old rollers, but still there and visible enough to prevent selling prints on this paper. I do not now or have ever had roller issues using my primary papers HP professional Satin and HP Smooth Fine Art. It's a shame since these new Baryta papers have an outstanding presentation for color and black and white work. I keep the print room at 35% humidity and about 60-70 degrees F so I do not think it is an environmental issue. Maybe on the next engineering go-around...

Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173407\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Colorwave]

Hey Jim- disapointing, as I am getting my new rollers next week. Have you tried increasing the drying time even more?

Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How can this be done?  The extended dry time setting only seems to change how long it dries before cutting, as best I can tell.
-Ron H.

[Jim Cole]

Bill,

Ron is correct. The dry time setting only pauses the cutter a while longer. I know of no other way of slowing down the print through the machine.

Hey Jim- disapointing, as I am getting my new rollers next week. Have you tried increasing the drying time even more?

Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[kaelaria]

I took delivery of mine yesterday and was up till 4am troubleshooting.  I had pie cutter marks and roller marks on the included HP gloss on the calibration, test target and a test print.  I was too frustrated to continue, since the HP support site is useless, and they were closed for talking to someone.  In the hopes that it was simply the paper and/or printer still being too humid for good operation, I went to bed.

At noon today, I did another test print and the marks were not as bad but still there.

After many more attempts at correcting it, I finally got it working.  I tried several combinations of settings, and setting dpi to 1200, and using More Passes - it comes out clean.  I have no idea why it makes such a big difference on mine, but it does.

I also received a roll of Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk and tried it with perfect results, using Fine Art Pearl Paper (more ink) with GE on, 1200 dpi, more passes.  No sign of marks on the calibration target, profile target or a full size print!

[Jim Cole]

Kaelaria,

Glad you got your Z running well. Maybe the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk dries slightly faster than the Harman. The only other thing I can try is to use GE on the whole sheet. I had it on Economy mode. Maybe it will set up the inks faster, although I doubt it.

I'll probably just stick with my tried and true HP Pro Satin paper. I never have any issues there.

Jim