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Author Topic: Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22  (Read 19145 times)

EricWHiss

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 09:40:36 pm »

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To compare files even slightly meaningfully, the faces need to fill the same proportion of the frame. Both the Canon and the Leica images have larger faces (esp the Leica).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


HaHa you're right and I was waiting for that. The moment I hit the reply button I realized that most of the viewers were going to assess the image based primarily on sharpness and will want to see equal sized framing.  But I was rushing out to pick up my son from daycare so....  

But my criterion for judging images are different.  Of most importance to me is: "Is it live or is it Memorex?"    I look to see if I can believe I'm there, then I look for things like color, tonality, texture.   To me, the Leica file is more real than either the eMotion or the canon 1DsII.  I will post a p20 file when I did one from the library. I believe it will come out tops over the files posted so far.

RE: the leica files....I probably should have taken the time to explain all this.  I thought people would also be interested to see the performance of the 80 lux wide open and at f/8 and was going to ask what medium format lens is comparable....the 110 f/2.0 ?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 12:08:18 am by EricWHiss »
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H1/A75 Guy

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2007, 11:35:17 pm »

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I look to see if I can believe I'm there, then I look for things like color, tonality, texture.   To me, the Leica file is more real than either the eMotion or the canon 1DsII.
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Ok, the Leica. To me, the eyes on L110139 are really nice, but color, tonality, texture, must be in the eyes of the beholder because that skin looks plastic. The girl in L1100343 is pretty, but the picture is a wash. God, I could sure use a good clean shot with an A22 converted from RAW to TIFF in LC11 and posted here.

David
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EricWHiss

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2007, 12:05:47 am »

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...I could sure use a good clean shot with an A22 converted from RAW to TIFF in LC11 and posted here.

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'd like to see that too.


 Graham sorry we are hijacking your thread.... I surely wish one day we could do something side by side, say with the same model and lighting.  We could compare my P20 to your back directly then eliminating the factors of camera/lens/lighting at least. Oh well as much as I would like to come to Estonia, I don't think it will be in my cards for some time.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 12:19:40 am by EricWHiss »
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thsinar

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2007, 12:12:54 am »

my contribution: I invite you all to Bangkok, at my place, with your backs. Available here are also friends with P45, H3D with 39 MPx, Leica M8, eMotion 75, etc ....

Anytime if it can be organized in advance.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I'd like to see that too.
 Graham sorry we are hijacking your thread.... I surely wish one day we could do something side by side, say with the same model and lighting.  We could compare my P20 to your back directly then.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Panopeeper

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2007, 12:19:37 am »

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Take a look....

Http://www.eh21.com/LeicaDMR/

These shots demonstrate the perfect exposure (as opposed to several shots shown on another thread, which were underexposed by two to four stops). Does the Leica show true raw histograms?

histograms
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 12:20:49 am by Panopeeper »
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Gabor

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2007, 12:21:48 am »

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We could compare my P20 to your back directly then.
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comparison to a square camera is hard

if your final output requirement is recatangle then the square must be cropped to 11mp

and  if your final output is square then a 22mp must be cropped to 16mp

---

I would comment that using ACR for conversion of sinar files IMO looks horrible compared to the native software or silkypix - comparing look/colour across this lot is a joke - even comparing colour side by side would be near impossible with the different optimum softwares for each system
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

EricWHiss

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2007, 12:46:33 am »

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comparison to a square camera is hard

if your final output requirement is recatangle then the square must be cropped to 11mp

and  if your final output is square then a 22mp must be cropped to 16mp

---

I would comment that using ACR for conversion of sinar files IMO looks horrible compared to the native software or silkypix - comparing look/colour across this lot is a joke - even comparing colour side by side would be near impossible with the different optimum softwares for each system
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes agreed the dark horse in all of this is that each back has its own proprietary software which will hopefully produce a better file than ACR/Lightroom.  Geeze, even Canon's DPP does a better job on canon files than other converters.  

But as far as square vs 4::5    I think the small side of the 22mp backs is the same pixel count as the p20?  That way we could do the framing such that the subject is only the square part of the the larger back and get a more or less pixel for pixel comparison.  We'd then are giving the larger back one point already by acknowledging the higher pixel count.   I wouldn't assume that the square image has to be cropped, because I'm not cropping mine at all. I like the square format.

Another way to do the comparison would be a no holds barred kind of deal where each person gets to choose their own lighting style, favorite lens, and runs the file through their converter of choice their way.   What I'm really saying is there is a learning curve to get the best out of each platform, and probably not a reasonable comparison to just upload some RAW  files for people to put into whatever program they like with no prior experience in say what curves make the files pop.  


So what are good metrics to evaluate image quality anyway?  Sharpness, absence of noise, smooth color transitions, absence of moire, color range, dynamic range, flexibleness of file, visual depth/realness.....
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Morgan_Moore

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2007, 01:43:01 am »

on the aspect ratio thing its all about the final delivery

the P20 and P25 are IDENTICAL as square and hugeley different at different rectangular aspect ratios

To do a test one has to first define what is the desired final outcome

so a desired final outcome could be

which back is best for an A2 print

or

which back is best for a four foot square print

And the results will differ wildly

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

rainer_v

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2007, 03:36:16 am »

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Is alpa with mf back or Seitz D3 digital back better for architecture and landscape?

Best,
Johannes

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes,
a lot.
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

rainer_v

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2007, 07:49:13 am »

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I ask myself not so much whether alpa is better than canon for that. I'm through with that. I know what I can expect from Canon with TS-Es (24, 45, 90), Olympus 35 shift, stiching and what not - and how much post I need for every image.

The question for me is what the new Seitz D3 scanning back can do on the alpaXY compared to a MF back on the same camera. I visited a workshop with the D3-Roundshot combination and was impressed. The Seitz people were mentioning that they plan to adapt the D3 scanning back to the alpa to have a real 6x9 digital camera with a scantime around 1 sec. (7500x11250~84MPixel, well that is not the point but you have no bayer pattern and non need to demosaic). The Seitz 6x17 is nice to show off but 6x9 sounds promising.

Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i would be interested also a lot in the new seitz back. you have any idea how long will be the times under subaveradge light conditions or in interior? i suppose the 1 second is for exterior in good light conditions.
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rainer viertlböck
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Dustbak

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2007, 09:05:21 am »

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These shots demonstrate the perfect exposure (as opposed to several shots shown on another thread, which were underexposed by two to four stops). Does the Leica show true raw histograms?

histograms
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I was just thinking the same but the second one (the one on f8 is a bit far to the right, the one wide open is excellent). A bit soft wide open (which is to be expected).

The Canon file is slightly backfocussed (focus is right behind the eyes) where it would have appeared to be much sharper when focus was exactly on the eyes.

Graham, the processed filed is much better than the DNG but still the green and magenta stuff is there though in much lesser form. There is however a lot of yellow in her face now (or maybe I have been looking too long through my finder and at my screen by now)?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 09:08:34 am by Dustbak »
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Panopeeper

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2007, 12:32:28 pm »

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the second one (the one on f8 is a bit far to the right

There are about 1050 pixels clipped (0.03% of all, negligable), but those are from specular spots, particularly from the inside corner of the silver painted eyelids.

(The makup of the model is miserable anyway for such an anatomy-lesson shot.)
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Gabor

rainer_v

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2007, 01:45:18 pm »

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Hi Rainer,

There is no easy answer to this question: Seitz has developed something they call TDI (Time Delay Integration). If I understood it right they integrate over more than one pixel row if light becomes less. This gives very variable exposure values. Seitz say the sensitivity is 100 times higher compared to other scanning backs. What I saw/could do myself at the workshop was that a full resolution Panorama with 7500x28000 pixels was captured in ~2 sec, see below. They say sensitivity compares to ISO 100-400 with no noise. I'm waiting to have a thing like this in my hands for testshots.

Best,
Johannes
P.S.: The image is from the workshop location.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
would be highly appreciated if you inform us about this tool, esp. together with a 6x9 camera.
the 360degrees roundshot cameras also deliver great possibilities, although i have a 220roundshot from seitz and used it very rarely after having it some time. but this might be a personal thing of me. esp. for group shots i think this 360degree cameras bring exciting possibilities, unfortunately i dont photograph people because they are too communicative for m lonely heart ..... ,:-
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 01:46:25 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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RobertJ

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Sample DNG raw file from Sinar e22
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2007, 04:22:03 pm »

I posted this in Graham's FredMiranda thread also, but I'll post it here as well:

This is just an example of what I got from converting the Sinar file in Lightroom:
http://www.yousendit.com/download/www/UXloanZsT010Ni9IRGc9PQ (8 bit TIFF, 61MB, I guess 6 days left, 100 downloads max)

I'm not saying it's good, or bad, and the color is probably way off, but it's just what I achieved using LR.  

Maybe we can all post our results from different converters to show just how hard it is to compare digital files, even from the same camera, with all the processing options out there.

Those Leica files previously posted are very nice, I might add.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 04:23:12 pm by T-1000 »
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